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PS4002FK quality control issues


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#26 MSwiss

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:08 AM

John,

How are you identifying the ones from the "last boatload"?

I thought someone said only two blew at Ralph's race last week, running exclusively them?

And you're running them, balls out, on 14.4v.

At the recent Retro East race at HVR, on 13.7v(?), I heard they had zero failures.

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#27 John C Martin

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:23 AM

Last boatload... that's the ones on the wall at our track.

One experienced racer last week blew three, one in practice, and him and his son in the race...

I've noticed the last ones I bought were not as good as before.

But I did throw a wire with a PS motor in that race Fri.

So...

I agree the voltage is too high... what can you expect for $13 with 14.4 volts?
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#28 Cheater

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:41 AM

Seems to me some want champagne on a beer budget, defined as traditional C-can motor quality and rebuildability for the cost of a pair of tires. Is that realistic?
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#29 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:47 AM

I blew one of the PS FK motors last year, which was one out of six motors that I had. I was running it geared at 9/27 in a Can-Am+. Since then, I have been running them at 9/28 or 8/26. 

Overall, I like these motors. Marcus, the owner of P1 Raceway in Winter Garden, has been running them in flexi chassis for endurance races. He said that there is no problem running them at 12/38 or 12/39.
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#30 John C Martin

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:55 AM

Yes, Dan, they both are great in flexi. Lighter weight! 80 grams vs 100+ Retros. They'd all be great at 13 something volts also..

Like Greg says, what can we expect for the price... tires are good for one or two races... motors are usually good for several races...

#31 MSwiss

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:58 AM

Ah, yes.

The secret: gearing them properly.

Running them over 3-1 with small tires, they should run forever.
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Mike Swiss
 
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#32 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:59 AM

Cannot stretch a 3" rubberband to 10" and blame the rubberband when it breaks.
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#33 CoastalAngler1

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 11:03 AM

Two of these motors blew last night at the P-1 enduro.  One within 15 minutes of practice, the other in the race. Six cars.  

Love the brakes!

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#34 John C Martin

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 11:03 AM

Yep, gearing and voltage... will kill...


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#35 John C Martin

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 11:11 AM

PS thrown a wire at comm tab... motor turns same RPM with whatever gear ratio... Seems C.F. at 14.4 volts is the killer.

 

Of course bogging it with gear ratio too high doesn't help with heat either...

Tied comm on RH prevents this..



#36 MSwiss

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 11:37 AM

John,

 

Why don't you call Pro Slot up and explain your issue.

Maybe a 4002FK with a tied comm is a possibility, at a higher price, or maybe he'll just tell you to gear your motor correctly and/or get your track owner to lower the power.

Cheater and Matt already explained that to you.


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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#37 Tim Neja

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 12:24 PM

I don't understand the need to run over 13 volts? It's simple, more voltage = more problems! Why? So you can say you've got a faster lap time? If everyone runs on the same voltage, then you're all equal anyway! :)

 

And Les nailed the reason why we hate the little re-buildable motors! They require rebuilding before you even run them! There's no savings – it will just become an arms war!! :)


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#38 Alexander Blankenship

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 06:06 PM

Can someone explain to me, since I am a novice, why you would want to run these motors, as Tim says, at higher than 13 volts???  If everyone runs the same power, how is it necessary?  


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#39 John C Martin

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:02 PM

Me explain to Pro Slot how to fix the problem LOL... you remember his FX flexi chassis and know the story there.

As I explained voltage and C.Fs. are the the reason for slung wires, not necessarily gear ratios IMO.

Try this - run a PS/FK on a power supply at 12 volts (it'll sling a wire real quick, no tied comm.) A Retro Hawk will not at 12 volts (comm tied). Of course they're is no load but this just shows the FKs weakness with C.F. at 14.4 volts.

I ran new FK motor tonight 8/26 no problem...
Fastest car in the B Main killed a Hawk... 9/27.

I've ask about reducing the voltage... he's thinking about it.



#40 RodneyZ

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 10:16 PM

The simple thing to do reduce the volts; not rocket science.


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#41 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 10:39 AM

I expect that raceways run 13+ volts because that's what the power supplies in general use put out (the Rivergate RDC90 lists an output of 13.6 to 14.2v). 

 

For those still working "old school" systems, automotive batteries at full charge are 13.5 and the associated battery chargers generally put out 13-14v or more (not to mention RF/AC ripple).


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#42 dalek

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 04:21 PM

Two of these motors blew last night at the P-1 enduro.  One within 15 minutes of practice, the other in the race. Six cars.  

 

The second one that Charlie referred to was mine. The motor overheated mainly because I geared it too high.

 

Also, part of the reason might have been because I had the body mounted close to the motor, so it probably wasn't getting as much air flow as it should have. 

 

The car was geared 3:1 (36/12) with .730" tires which resulted in a rollout of 4.11 (3 / .730) .

The motor package says rollout should be 4.25 to 4.50.

 

The Enduro we run asks a lot of the motor because the class requires a Cheetah 21 chassis (heavy) and GTP body (high drag) and five-minute segments.

 

Track voltage is set at 14v but actually at 3 amps is about 13.75v.

 

Amazingly, the motor finished the 16 segments of the race and was still quite fast down the straights, even after
you could smell burnt insulation.


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#43 usadar

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 07:45 PM

I expect that raceways run 13+ volts because that's what the power supplies in general use put out (the Rivergate RDC90 lists an output of 13.6 to 14.2v). 
 
For those still working "old school" systems, automotive batteries at full charge are 13.5 and the associated battery chargers generally put out 13-14v or more (not to mention RF/AC ripple).

 
If the quality of track power is good, FK motors run fine even at 14.2v, quick charge position of Rivergate power supplies backed up by powerful batteries.
 
We have had very few troubles even with GT Coupes (110 grams minimum weight under IRRA® rules) powered by TSRD3 at 14.2v, as long as cars are set up properly.
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#44 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 11:55 AM

With regard to track power, I would expect that Retro Tokyo adheres to a very high standard. The same can not be said for every raceway.
 
Anyway. Does it not stand to reason that a higher numerical gear ratio would relieve the load on the motor and (all else equal) lower the operating temperature (a good thing)? It would also allow the motor to either rev higher or spend longer periods at max revs (a bad thing given the loose wires at the comm).

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#45 John C Martin

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 08:45 PM

A crap shoot either way

#46 MSwiss

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 08:52 PM

Hopefully the ones for Tracy's race, the handouts will from a good day from the tab masher person or machine.

 

In the meantime, I had a chance to look at all 20 motors I got in last week.

 

On 13, the hoods are incredibly bad/oversize.

 

And on the other 7, they look terrific. Best ever.

 

Maybe Proslot is in the midst of a batch of good ones.

 

I'm getting 10 more in on Wednesday.

 

It will interesting to see what the hoods look like on those.


Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#47 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 08:56 PM

PS thrown a wire at comm tab... motor turns same RPM with whatever gear ratio... Seems C.F. at 14.4 volts is the killer.
 
Of course bogging it with gear ratio too high doesn't help with heat either...

Tied comm on RH prevents this..

And you also got beat by a Retro Hawk Saturday that you said the brushes won't hold up on the Hawk at 14.2 volts!!!
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#48 John C Martin

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 08:56 PM

How many have no endplay?

#49 MSwiss

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 09:04 PM

How many have no endplay?

Zero

 

I have 23 in stock.

 

That's what clean living will get you. LOL

 

2 do have poor bearing alignment.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#50 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 09:29 PM

How many have no endplay?
Tracy the RH world record holder's motor from last week lost all it's feathers wouldn't fly anymore LOL..f inished like last..
I suspect from killing the brushes cause they had plenty of brush left..
You may not have noticed but I busted the bearings out of one of those ARP fronts ..I used to be crazy about LOL. Still finished second with one front wheel ...

The World Record holder also was the 3 race on that motor JC plus all the practice for three races.
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