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#201 wbugenis

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 06:21 PM

Rob,

 

The track you were racing on had a lot to do with motor differences being less important.  

 

Flat tracks with CNC routed turns (not elliptical as with most of the fixture routed tracks in the US) emphasize driving skill over motor speed. Gerding King tracks (as well as banked tracks in general) do just the opposite hence, the long series of complains in this thread. As long as races are held on banked turn tracks the motor differences will be a source of unequal playing field issues.


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#202 Samiam

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 06:26 PM

Rob,

 

They tried that with the Puppy Dog. Racers wanted motors they could re-use. Well... they got it. We know how that turned out.

 

This is not the second coming of the slotpocalypse. This formula has worked very well in Retro. Attendance at races has been steadily climbing. New young racers joining in. Tight close racing at every event. This little hiccup will pass and we'll have to find another "end of Slots as we know it" subject. 


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#203 MSwiss

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 06:29 PM

Rob,

 

You already pointed out how American made arm Puppy Dog motors didn't keep racers with deep pockets from spending.

 

But Koford-made ones somehow will?

 

No one is hopping up Hawk Retros,let alone with parts six or seven times the retail of the base motor, so your go-kart reference really doesn't apply.

 

Despite the occasional thread like this, that you can chose to read or not read, nothing draws US racers, across the US, more than Retro.

 

All forms of racing are great, and I welcome all genres in my raceway.

 

I wish it wasn't the case, but flat track racing, with no motor controversies, isn't nearly as popular as Retro racing.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
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#204 wbugenis

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 06:45 PM

I wish it wasn't the case, but flat track racing, with no motor controversies, isn't nearly as popular as Retro racing.

 
Then these motor controversies, every six months or so, will always be with you.


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#205 Samiam

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 07:09 PM

These types of conversations pop up with sealed motors because that is the nature of the beast. Unsealed built motors have few to none of the restrictions or requirements these motors have. So it is obvious there wouldn't be controversies like this. There are other issues built motors have like availability and cost of certain components. So they are not free of issues. Can you say B.O.W.?


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#206 Cap Henry

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 07:14 PM

As much as Retro has motor controversies, the reason it has grown is the fact you don't have to work on motors to be competitive. Breaking in a motor(s), trying it, then trying another is still a whole lot easier then straightening the can, gluing in the magnets, assembling the endbell, etc., to still have to put it in a car and test it to find out if it's any good LOL.


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#207 Cheater

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 07:29 PM

Exactly, Cap!

 

I've said it many times: the two key factors affecting participation in slot car racing are a racer's budgets of time and money.

 

And of the two, time is the more important one. To say it again, everyone can make more money but no one can make more time.


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#208 Rob Voska

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 07:34 PM

Puppy dogs... two thickness cans, at least two winds changed in the dark of the night, timing all over the map, no air gap rules and a sticker to keep everything hidden from the honest guy. 

 

Yep, same as I suggested.

 

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein


#209 Cap Henry

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 07:40 PM

Unsealed motors wouldn't do any growing for IRRA® Retro, it's been asked over and over and has always been shot down.


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#210 Samiam

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 07:42 PM

Every thread on Retro motors always ends up drifting into the "You guys should build motors."

 

And the same answers are always repeated as to why not. But that never stops the next guy from doing it again and again and again. The same thing over and over again.

 

Rob,

 

Retro is what it is. And it works. For us. If it doesn't work for you that is fine. 


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Sam Levitch
 
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#211 MSwiss

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 07:57 PM

Rob,

Were you aware Puppy Dogs are no longer legal in Premier events?

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#212 CDavis7

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 07:58 PM

As the OP for this thread, I feel compelled to comment and perhaps clarify. My OP was not intended to start a debate about who has special friends, special interests, who's always in the A Main, who will never be, who's honest, or who's not. I know that JK is trying their best to support our hobby and at great personal risk. That is very kind of Tim and his efforts should not go unnoticed and I for one certainly appreciate what he is doing, including the actions to improve consistency.
 
However, it seems that there has been a change in wire size, or at least a known variance, and a motor with a different wire size is a fundamentally different motor. Therefore, does the BoD have reason to believe that there are, in fact, motors with varying wire sizes? If so, are there any plans or considerations being made to address this situation?
 
I know that we expect an awful lot out of a $12 motor but if you can run a motor with a 3% larger diameter wire then I'd like the courtesy of legally being able to run one with 3% fewer turns.
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#213 Rob Voska

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 08:02 PM

"it works. For us."
 
Five pages this time of it working, I see...
 
No one says you have to build motors... simply buy them built. Lots of great reputable motor builders out there.  Your problem is you won't have 50 but maybe one in every car an an extra. Then you can just freshen your own if you wish, have your local track do it, or part of it like a zap and comm turn or send it out. 
 
Retros popularity has more to do with the age demographics of the racers than the rules. Maybe you guys should be Retro and simply run 36Ds with 1-1/4" tall 5/8" wide rear tires and 1/8" clearance front to back. 

That way the cars won't handle and motors will be less of an issue.


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#214 MSwiss

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 08:12 PM

As the OP for this thread, I feel compelled to comment and perhaps clarify. My OP was not intended to start a debate about who has special friends, special interests, who's always in the A Main, who will never be, who's honest, or who's not. I know that JK is trying their best to support our hobby and at great personal risk. That is very kind of Tim and his efforts should not go unnoticed and I for one certainly appreciate what he is doing, including the actions to improve consistency.
 
However, it seems that there has been a change in wire size, or at least a known variance, and a motor with a different wire size is a fundamentally different motor. Therefore, does the BoD have reason to believe that there are, in fact, motors with varying wire sizes? If so, are there any plans or considerations being made to address this situation?
 
I know that we expect an awful lot out of a $12 motor but if you can run a motor with a 3% larger diameter wire then I'd like the courtesy of legally being able to run one with 3% fewer turns.


We still don't know what exactly happened.
 
Tim has emails into China and is purchasing accurate measuring devices.
 
All the comments in this thread are getting repetitive, or are off-topic.
 
I'm going to close it for now, until Tim gets back to us
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#215 Cheater

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 08:13 PM

36Ds? Now you're getting silly, Rob.
 
Speaking for myself, if you are so convinced your suggestions will generate closer racing and greater participation, then prove they will. Take the IRRA® rules framework, change the motor rules to suit your preferences, and put on a small series of your renamed org's races for six months or so and prove that your approach will give better results.

There's an old saying about a bird in the hand, you know.

Chris, the BoD needs accurate data before we can craft the best solution and, as Swiss says, we don't have that yet.
 
I agee, Swiss, it's time to close this thread down. I was making this post when you did so.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap






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