214 replies to this topic

[old & gray]

It seems to me tightening the tolerances will drive the cost of finding the magic bullet up, not down.

 

I agree. If there are 10 bullets, 10 duds, and 80 average motors; then tightening tolerances would result in 2 bullets, 2 duds, and 96 average motors.

If you have to find a bullet to make your day, then you will need to buy more motors to find your bullet.

 

The only winners with tightened tolerances are people who are willing to race with equal motors (now turning off sarcasm font)

[Cheater]

The error in your thinking, KVP, is that there aren't fewer rockets.

 

Assume 10,000 motors that vary 5% from slowest to fastest and assume motor-to-motor variances are equally distributed throughout the production run.

 

Now consider 10,000 motors that vary 3% from top to bottom, again with variances equally distributed throughout the run.

 

There will be the same percentage of motors at the top and at the bottom in both cases. The number of either will not change, only the difference between the fastest and slowest.

[Cheater]

You can also assume the distribution of the variances in each motor batch are represnted by the bell curve, if you wish.

Going from a 5% variance to 3% just narrows the curve along the baseline and makes it more veritical. There are still the same 10,000 under that curve and not significantly fewer number of rockets. In fact there may be a few more just below the fastest because of the increased slope of the narrow, more vertical bell curve.

[Butters37]

Cheater,

 

The only thing that may vary your statement is that JK has said that the new batch will be slower than the older style. Even bullet to bullet. The average motor may be closer in this new style but the speed will still be down when you compare the top percent of the 7R to the R.

The precident was set with the Puppy Dogs. Why not use that same idea and go through the season and in the fall starting with the Sano just use only this batch of motors and not allow the R motors at Premier races? Let the series then decide which is best for their racers on whether to follow or make their own decision on a time frame. As long as Tim at JK will be doing all motors like this in the future there should be no issue.

[Cheater]

The only thing that may vary your statement is that JK has said that the new batch will be slower than the older style.

Butters,

That is not what JK has said. Please point me to where that has been posted anywhere.
 
Here's the graph he posted at Facebook:
 

 
And the text that accompanied it:

"Here is what we think you (and others) are seeing. When we reduced the variability in our motors, we didn't want to make the motor faster, just much more consistent. As you indicated, within the 7Rs, the motors are very consistent. That means the older motors were less consistent, and that's true. Here is the rub, the fastest of the older R motors is faster than the fastest of the new 7Rs as the picture shows."

Further points:

1) Note that the average 7R is faster than the average R.
2) Racers have made it very clear over the last few years that they overwhelmingly desired a more consistent sealed motor and JK has spent ten of thousands of dollars in response to that request, only to run into another firestorm of complaints.
3) To make the fastest 7R equal to the fastest R would have required a change in spec, like dropping some winds from the arm or more timing and he couldn't take that approach under IRRA^® rules.
 
Your suggestions as to how to proceed forward have been heard, as well as those of many others. As Mike McMasters posted in his R4/10 motor announcement thread, "There will be a solution."

[Dan Ebert]

Let's talk about this in six months when the next batch comes out. This seems to be a big topic every six months to a year. Same bitch, same tears, same BS.

[Noose]

Same people.

[Butters37]

Forgive someone for suggesting that the IRRA^® use the same methods that they used for the Puppy Dog... my bad, Greg.

[Cheater]

Butters,

 

I said your suggestion has been heard and will be considered along with the other suggestions that have been made. What more do you want today?

[kvanpelt]

Same people.

 

Different day!

[Tim Wilkins]

Putting down racers that bring up their legitimate concerns is not the way to solve this problem. It's been verified by the manufacturer than the fastest of the motors are the R motor which the racing community can no longer buy. Yet a good number of racers still have these motors of unknown quantity in their boxes.

 

That is a concern not to be taken lightly. For those of you who want to minimize this issue, feel free to run your 7R motors in all your races while others with the fastest R motors blow past you.  Maybe eating some crow for a while will do you some good.

[Cheater]

TIm,

 

I'm not seeing anyone putting down racers in any signficant way. Want to point out the posts in this thread that you feel do that?

Many seem to want the BoD to make a quick snap-judgement ruling here and that isn't going to happen.

[Samiam]

I don't care about any of this. I will buy a motor, run it in, and race it.

 

There is absolutely no money to be made winning an IRRA^® race. It is supposed to be fun. Let's not make this "No Fun." 

 

[Butters37]

Here's one.

[Cheater]

Really? What person or group is it putting down?

[Tim Wilkins]

Just some of the comments for you, Greg. I'm surprised you haven't spotted them unless you're leaning so far to one side that you find it hard to right yourself to the middle. These comments are put downs, trying the marginalize a different viewpoint.

 

"Stop, stop, stop this ridiculous BS"

 

"Winners race – losers whine!!!"

 

"Same bitch, same tears, same BS."

 

"Same people."

 

"Different day!"

[Cheater]

Sorry, these don't qualify under the dictionary I use. Well, maybe the second one a little, but there's no names attached and only generic groups are mentioned.
 
   noun
1. a landing of an aircraft.

2. Informal.

• a disparaging, belittling, or snubbing remark.
• a remark or act intended to humiliate or embarrass someone.

[Noose]

When the same people bitch about the same thing time and time again because they aren't winning it makes you kind of hesitant to take one post and declare it gospel.

As far as I am concerned right now the charts were all predictive data and not actual results.

[JerseyJohn]

So the spec is nominal 5, with a realistic variation of probably 10 to -2, with haphazard balancing. Now Mr JK sees the big variation and guys complaining so he calls Mister Fong and says look dude the spec is 5 degrees, and balance them closer to zero. I know they are only 1 dollar motors... So now the motors have a tighter tollerance to spec and we still bitching. I don;t consider it a new spec motor its just built to a tighter tolerence.
 
In Retro East we are seeing 32 or more in each class since we went to Hawks, attendance is booming. I love it. Nothing is perfect but we are getting closer LOL.

[Tim Wilkins]

Sorry, these don't qualify under the dictionary I use. Well, maybe the second one a little, but there's no names attached and only generic groups are mentioned.
 
   noun
1. a landing of an aircraft.

2. Informal.

• a disparaging, belittling, or snubbing remark.
• a remark or act intended to humiliate or embarrass someone.

If one chooses to agree with a disparaging remark, it's as if they said it themselves. Slotblog is a community in which far more people read posts than comment on them.

 

Time will tell how all this settles out. I have a feeling far more racers than you think share the same concern that I and others have pointed out.

[MSwiss]

Tim W,

 

Please go read post #78 and you might realize why we are a bit cranky on this.

 

A few additional points.

 

We are not the manufacturer.

 

JK has to figure what exactly has happened, contact his vendor, and it's up to them how they will proceed.

 

Until we know that, we really can't do anything.

 

IMO, if there is a problem, it was from a minuscule smaller batch of wire, not Tim having his vendor tighten up the variations of balancing and timing.

 

I'm not sure how some racers expect us to make instant judgements. We came up with guidelines to hold races, which regional orgs, raceways, and racers can choose to follow or not follow.

 

We are not paid employees of the racers, but by the tone of some of these posts, some seem to think we are.

 

Tim,

 

I'm curious why you're seeking the solution to this situation from us?

 

AFAIK, you don't attend any events that use our rules.

 

Why aren't you quizzing the SCRRA officials?

[Tim Wilkins]

I'm curious why you're seeking the solution to this situation from us?
 
AFAIK, you don't attend any events that use our rules.
 
Why aren't you quizzing the SCRRA officials?

 
Mike,

Regarding post #78, I have no knowledge of the past history between your group and this individual so I'll leave it at that.  

This is a new issue for me and I don't recall bringing up a concern about motors in the past. "Motor Question" was the title of this thread and it involved the Hawk Retro 7R of which I have purchased seven to date with sub-standard results in the Retro classes I race. I saw a pattern forming and brought up the matter a couple of weeks ago and was assured that there was indeed some fast 7R motors out there so I dropped the matter. Now this thread appears informing me the manufacturer admits the fastest of the R motors are indeed faster than the fastest of the 7R motors. This is a problem. What also is a problem is that I and many others have been buying up these 7R motors with no resource to buy any more of the R motors.
 
For the most part, I see the racers with the same concerns as I have being respectful, patient and even offering up some suggestions.  For that in some cases they have been treated in a condescending way.
 
Regarding, the SCRRA BoD, I'm sure they have followed recent events and will do the right thing at the proper time. I've probably spent too much time in this thread so I will refrain from any further comments.

[MSwiss]

Tim,

 

I'm sorry, but it's as if you didn't read my post.

We are NOT the manufacturer.

Until we know how he is going to proceed, we can't do anything.

And no, people are not being patient.

This came to light on Thursday, not a month ago.

As far as your comment "Regarding, the SCRRA BoD, I'm sure they have followed recent events and will do the right thing at the proper time," it appears you feel the proper time for us and the proper time for the SCRRA are two different things.

[Phil Hackett]

      Hold on... gotta make more...   

[Mark Wampler]