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#26 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 12:17 AM

Mike,

 

Why would "coining" be a "deal-breaker"?  Does it have something to do with being difficult to manufacture, or might it be because it was not done that way back in the 60s and early 70s?  (Serious question)

 

Personally, I think Ken's solution is very clever, and very effective for the application at hand.  However, it's usability might become problematic for chassis representing December 1968 and later.   How are you going to mount the plumber hinges on the front end of a coined drop arm?

 

All that aside, if you were to have made, for a reasonable price, some drop arms that matched the 1" wide x 1/16" thick Cobra drop arms from late 1968 and also some that matched the "Team Nutley" 1-1/4" wide x .050" thick with window from the early 70s, well I would certainly buy a bunch of them!






#27 MSwiss

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 12:38 AM

I already have a nice coining fixture.

But, I never even thought about the plumber dilemma.

Let me run it by my machinist friend.

Maybe it's not that difficult to do the period correct forming.

Why kind of price would you be willing to pay?

Mike Swiss
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#28 SlotStox#53

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 01:35 AM

Sure would be nice to buy new vintage drop arms, only a few originals left in the vault.

I know RGeo used to do a vintage drop arm forming tool out of 2 pieces of aluminum that you pressed together in a vise.

#29 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 04:17 AM

Those old production drop arms were coined, but not with a circular die, it was straight across, which allowed for the plumber attachment.  Pictured below is an circa 1969-1970 production Cobra chassis (yes, that's a Champion Orange Picker endbell) that shows how it was done. The production Nutley etc arms were the same (I have one but it's packed away...can get to it later today).

 

Should be an easy job to form them.

 

IMG_0110 (1).jpg


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#30 tonyp

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 08:24 AM

The Nutley droparm was not coined. The tongue area was just bent for the offset


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#31 tonyp

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 08:26 AM

60b2797544b3b4904c4a9f0a5a3a6ed3.jpg


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#32 Samiam

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 08:37 AM

Tony,

I like your style.

 

Old Skool for sure.


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#33 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 08:54 AM

Mike,

 

Here's part of a Cobra ad from the January, 1969 issue of Car Model:

 

6901CM13.jpg

 

As you can see, the 1/16" thick x 1" wide drop arm cost $0.95

 

 

Here's part of a Nutley Products ad from the July 06, 1969 issue of Model Racing Journal:

 

MRJ V1N15 p8.jpg

 

The .040" and .050" thick x 1-1/4" wide drop arms are priced at $1.25

 

Running this through several inflation calculators, the equivalent price for the Cobra drop arm today would be $6.25, and for the Nutley drop arms $8.22.

 

So to answer your question, I would consider $7.50 +/- $1 each to be a reasonable price.

 

If you can do better that would be great, but at any rate because we are here trying to get away from rare and expensive vintage parts, the price cannot logically be more than the average cost of a vintage drop arm... right?


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#34 old & gray

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 09:20 AM

Here's part of a Cobra ad from the January, 1969 issue of Car Model:

 

As you can see, the 1/16" thick x 1" wide drop arm cost $0.95


Running this through several inflation calculators, the equivalent price for the Cobra drop arm today would be $6.25,

 

Here's a RGEO 1" drop arm which verifies your cost estimate.

 

http://e-slotcar.com...e-050-rgeo-375/


Bob Schlain

#35 John Streisguth

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 09:29 AM

The Nutley droparm was not coined. The tongue area was just bent for the offset


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That should make it even easier to form


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#36 SlotStox#53

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 11:25 AM

Here's a windowed Nutley drop arm with another one out of a steel center kit and one by PHAZEIII.

20161223_081819-1024x576.png
20161223_080508-1024x576.jpg 20161223_081253-1024x576.jpg
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#37 MSwiss

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 11:33 AM

Here's a RGEO 1" drop arm which verifies your cost estimate.
 
http://e-slotcar.com...e-050-rgeo-375/

No offense Bob, but along with it not being close to a Nutley windowed drop arm, I wouldn't/couldn't, out of clear conscience, sell something that looks like that.

 

(edit) Now that I'm on a regular computer, I confirmed it appears to be coined and the guide stop profile isn't symmetrical, left to right side. 


Mike Swiss
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#38 MSwiss

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 12:42 PM

Mike,
 
Here's part of a Cobra ad from the January, 1969 issue of Car Model:
 
attachicon.gif6901CM13.jpg
 
As you can see, the 1/16" thick x 1" wide drop arm cost $0.95
 
 
Here's part of a Nutley Products ad from the July 06, 1969 issue of Model Racing Journal:
 
attachicon.gifMRJ V1N15 p8.jpg
 
The .040" and .050" thick x 1-1/4" wide drop arms are priced at $1.25
 
Running this through several inflation calculators, the equivalent price for the Cobra drop arm today would be $6.25, and for the Nutley drop arms $8.22.
 
So to answer your question, I would consider $7.50 +/- $1 each to be a reasonable price.
 
If you can do better that would be great, but at any rate because we are here trying to get away from rare and expensive vintage parts, the price cannot logically be more than the average cost of a vintage drop arm... right?

The problem is back then there was a market for hundreds/thousands.

If there was still a market for a 1,000, I could probably talk JK into doing it and they would be $4 or $5.

But unfortunately, the market is for probably about 3 dozen, tops.

CNC milling them, I can't see them being under $10.

Maybe I can find a cheaper way.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#39 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 01:54 PM

Mike,

 

Sadly, I think you are right; the market is simply not big enough to support even a minimal order.

 

However, at very least the cat is out of the bag and people are thinking about ways to get this done.

 

For the record, here are some photos of "Cobra", Cobra equivalent, and "Nutley" drop arms:

 

Cobra and REHCO DA.jpg

 

Above is a 3/4" wide Cobra drop arm.  The one in the back is a 1" wide REHCO drop arm, which was patterned after and is very similar to the Cobra.  These drop arms are 1/16" thick, and were popular from mid 1968 through early 1969.

 

Team Nutley 050 DA.jpg

 

This is a 1-1/4" wide "Team Nutley" drop arm.  These drop arms were available in .040" and .050" thicknesses.  This one is .050".

 

Team Nutley 050 DA Closeup.jpg

 

Here's a close-up of the guide tongue.  The two front edges of the drop arm on either side of the guide tongue was an ideal place to locate 3/32" plumber hinge tubes.

 

Aside from the Cobra drop arm being 1/16" (.063") thick and the Team Nutley drop arms being thinner at .050" and .040", there was another major difference in the way they were made.  The guide tongue offset on the cobra drop arm was about 5/32" (.156") to fit thicker guides such as the ubiquitous Cox guide (now very rare and expensive).  The offset on the Nutley drop arms was closer to 1/16" (.063") to fit the newer (and now universal) Jet Flag.  Like this:

 

Side view Cobra DA.jpg

Side view Nutley DA.jpg

 

In my opinion, any and all drop arms made for vintage-style cars would do better to have the smaller (ie: Nutley) offset of 1/16" (.063").

 

The reason is we (or at least I) will not be using rare and expensive ($10 to $15 or more each) Cox guides to build my cars.  Instead, I will use (cheap and plentiful) modern guides I can get anywhere.  If I happen to want my modern guide to "look like" a Cox guide, all I have to do is cut it down:

 

Before and After.jpg

 

Here's what it would look like compared to a real Cox guide:

 

Cox vs Faux.jpg

 

Close enough for vintage-style work...  :D

 


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#40 MSwiss

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 02:10 PM

Paul, Steve,

Thanks for the nice pics.

 

On the Nutley style, would it be preferable to be solid or have a hole?


Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#41 tonyp

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 02:27 PM

Hole was the most popular.
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#42 Rick

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 03:04 PM

I've made some re-pop parts in the past. The guide tongue/drop arm, would be no problem to make and form. Forget the inflation calculator for brass bits, it just is way off. The price of materials alone is higher than the actual packaged piece(s) in the 60's. I trust it is because of the price of brass in comparison more than other factors....

 

pic of some bits, MIdwest guide, Dynamic and body mounts,

 

 

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#43 Samiam

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 04:50 PM

I scour ebay every night looking for brass bits. Especially drop arms. But I think the number of finger burners out there are limited.

 

I would commit to at least ten drop arms. I have plenty of pans.   


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#44 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 05:59 PM

Mike,

 

You're welcome... and thanks for the consideration.  :hi:



#45 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 06:07 PM

Rick,

 

You wrote: "The guide tongue/drop arm, would be no problem to make and form."

 

This would to be a very small market, but among this small group I have no doubt the .050" thick Team Nutley" style drop arm would be the most popular, especially if it has that big rectangular hole in the center...  :good:


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#46 dc-65x

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 09:02 PM

Here's a drop arm from back in the day for low profile guides like the Jet flag or Dynamic Low Profile:

 

DSCN4733.JPG

 

Are there guide tongues available today to make up something similar with the addition of some sheet brass?


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#47 SlotStox#53

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 09:12 PM

Professor motor has a bunch of guide tongues from Cobra just like that Parma piece Rick :)

Other route would be the modern spring steel guide tongues like the Turning Man tongue from Duffy Heavy Metal Industries.

#48 MSwiss

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 09:23 PM

Here's a drop arm from back in the day for low profile guides like the Jet flag or Dynamic Low Profile:
 
attachicon.gifDSCN4733.JPG
 
Are there guide tongues available today to make up something similar with the addition of some sheet brass?

There are plenty of flat steel tongues available that are used mostly for Retro.

Using a separate steel tongue is how most of the Tottenham chassis, the UK Retro racers run, are made.

And to be honest, they stick out like a sore thumb, especially the real ornate ones, that look like a violin.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#49 MSwiss

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 09:47 PM

Great looking chassis but the guide tongue looks way out of place.

 

AC_Emott002.jpg

 

AC_Emott001.jpg


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#50 Bill from NH

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 10:06 PM

The PM website indicates they have 11 of the Cobra guide tongues left. A few years back, I got some similsr brass tongues by Slot Car Distributors in England.


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