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PS4002 meltdown


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#326 Bazzie

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 09:19 PM

Ron, I'm not a know-it all, but I am an engineer and I will always analyse. I will go into a bit more detail. Car chassis shorting out on the track will send a large current through the chassis, not the motor, so the motor will be fine. Your controller may not be, if the car is close enough to the primary / first / shortest track feed from the battery / PSU, as 100's of Amps will be flowing and the fuse will not be fast enough. So I will look elsewhere. 

 

Now there is more than one factor that would have contributed than just fresh track glue, otherwise we would have had more failures. Typical factors are gear ratio, tyre size, motor condition / state, and that last one is something that changes from week to week. I for example had my F1 motor on the PSU @ 3V this morning, and it was drawing 2.4A, very high for a 4002. Compound that with wet track glue, and you have a good reason for my F1 motor running very hot that night. Last night it was not nearly as hot, and the only thing that seemingly changed is that the glue dried in the meantime. One factor alone (track glue) is probably not enough, but if it compounds on other factors then surely it would contribute as there will definitely be a higher load on the motor as it struggles to detach the tyres from the track. The proverbial last straw. Now this F1 motor of mine also occasionally stalls, but I can usually punch through it with the controller. I do occasionally file back the brush tips, like just before scrutineering / qualifying in the nats. Brushes may have worn in again by now, but I had no stalls last night.

 

There is one other scenario, if one of the terminals on your motor is shorting out to the car chassis, then it is feasible that only that terminal will melt itself out of the end-bell, as that could also constitute a short over the PSU, but that implies the current will not flow through the motor. Your armature definitely burnt, that smell was not end-bell, it was arm, so I still don't think this is what happened to your motor.

 

Another example of strange things that can happen to these motors - last yr. just before the nats I bought 2 new 4002s. I tried to run one of them in in water, and within 15sec the water instantly went black as the brushes dissolved. Pulled the motor out, cleaned and dried it and put it on the PSU and it was drawing about 2.5A at 3V. I took the brush gear off, cleaned the comm slots again, dried everything off, reassembled, back on PSU, same thing. Did it a couple more times,same thing. Replaced the brushes with new Gold Dust ones, problem went away.


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#327 Zippity

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 09:55 PM

Jesus!!

 

Is there no end to the BS that you expouse?

 

Please keep me out of your "theories" and postulations.

 

Thank you.


Ron Thornton

#328 Zippity

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 10:23 PM

Steve had to push start his G12 Eurosport last night.

 

Was that due to overlapping brushes?


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#329 Bazzie

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:40 PM

??

 

A bit uncalled for Ron. I don't get personal on forums, I don't insult people when I disagree. It's usually against forum rules. 

 

I (obviously incorrectly) thought forums are places where people share opinions, I was sharing from my experience on the night. I thought it more than just an opinion, but I won't do that again....


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#330 swodem

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 11:48 PM

It's my thread Bazzie, share as much as you like. I think that we can accept a braid damaged join in the track won't create a short across and endbell and blow a motor...

But of course it may create a short across the chassis

However the chassis is not part of the motor electrical circuit


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#331 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 12:04 AM

Arne Saknussem, on 15 Sept 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

My departure was simply the result of my finally getting sick of poorly made products (slotracing being chock full of them) that require a rebuild or semi-rebuild to operate at a reasonable level of reliability.
 
 
https://youtu.be/k5ba1OKY7Xc

. What do you call a reasonable level of reliability for $14 motors? People are getting several races out of these in all types of cars from Wings to heavy Hardbodies.

#332 Racer36

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 05:11 AM

What has your personal experience been with these motors Kevin? How has brush hood alignment been out of the bag? What classes are you running them in?
What raceways do you frequent? I am surprised we have not crossed paths .
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#333 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 06:33 AM

I go to the track in Rochester with my kids but we don't race, we just rent track time and have fun. We bought JK cars and ran them until the motors slowed down and I replaced them with the ProSlot -FK. The difference in speed and braking is noticeable. I read some articles about the brushes and just trimmed them as described. I enjoy getting information from the forums since there aren't any magazines left.

#334 Racer36

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 06:45 AM

Word is that the building is sold at Fantasy and Rodger will be closing down after a nice 30 plus year run. Not sure when that will happen, but it is inevitable.

Next closest place for you will be North East Slot Car Raceway in Northeast PA. Lester is a good guy and very helpful.


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#335 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 06:57 AM

I hope that doesn't happen because we enjoy the place. We have family and friends downstate so we might have to go play with Slot Cars when on vacation.
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#336 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 10:07 AM

Kevin Donovan, on 15 Sept 2017 - 05:04 AM, said:

. What do you call a reasonable level of reliability for $14 motors? People are getting several races out of these in all types of cars from Wings to heavy Hardbodies.

 

A motor that won't go when you pull the trigger is not reasonable.  $14 is an irrelevant data point as there are numerous motors below that price point exhibiting very good reliability.

 

EOS.


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#337 Kevin Donovan

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 12:26 PM

Sorry you had a problem Arne Saknussem. I never saw this happen.

#338 Bazzie

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 02:20 PM

I pulled the F1 motor brush gear apart last night. The original brushes are really soft. In about 250 laps it completely clogged up the comm slots and started soiling the comm segments. Cleaned the lot up, installed new gold dust brushes and problem is gone after running in again. It's back down at 1.2A @3V. It just needed some TLC
Btw, there's another thread on water/Simple Green run-in. I added a bit of dish washing liquid to the water. It took about 3min of running before the brushes were suitably seated


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#339 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 03:28 PM

Kevin Donovan, on 15 Sept 2017 - 5:26 PM, said:

I never saw this happen.

 

:laugh2:  :laugh2:  :laugh2:  :laugh2:  :laugh2:  :laugh2:  :laugh2:  :laugh2: ... Good one, Kevin!


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#340 Zippity

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 08:57 PM

Bazzie, on 15 Sept 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

........ Your armature definitely burnt, that smell was not end-bell, it was arm....

 

Maybe you smelt the motor oil burning?

 

Today I replaced the damaged end-bell, used the same can, magnets, armature, brushes and springs, and the motor sounds fine. :)

 

Next theory please.................................


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#341 Bazzie

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 03:58 AM

Interesting. Yeah could be oil. Something got really hot, current probably went through the comm as the brushes moved while the end bell melted. There may have been some gas-out on lacquer close to the comm as the comm got hot. Evidently not for long enough to cause permanent damage to the comm. Did the two brush hoods get close enough to each other to short directly, i.e. Not through the comm?


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#342 Zippity

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 04:41 AM

Ii is obvious that what happened to your motor/s is not the same as what happened to two of mine and one of Paul B's.

 

In future, when you want to push your theory on blown motors, please don't bring my examples into your discussions.

 

OK?


Ron Thornton

#343 swodem

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 03:46 PM

Zippity, on 16 Sept 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

....In future, when you want to push your theory on blown motors, please don't bring my examples into your discussions.
 
OK?


I think that's an unrealistic response fella.


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#344 Zippity

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 04:07 PM

I guess what I was really hoping for, was that the Prof wouldn't try explaining to all and sundry, what caused my motor issue especially when he had not even looked at the said motor, nor was fully up with the facts as to what had actually happened on the track.

 

:(


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#345 swodem

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 04:14 PM

Well that as only because you left a void in not explaining it yourself and didnt answer FastFreddies request


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#346 Zippity

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 04:45 PM

And that was the very reason why I didn't reply to FF request..

 

To stop ill-informed postulations!!


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#347 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 07:08 PM

Play nice boys
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#348 Zippity

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 07:25 PM

PM Sent :)



#349 Zippity

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 04:52 AM

The heat generated by the short, was sufficient enough to melt the solder joins on both tabs, cause the hardware on the negative side to fall off the motor, including both screws. The bottom plate remained in place.

 

A nice trail of white smoke was seen coming from the car :(

 

Here's the offending end-bell:

 

4002eb.jpg


Ron Thornton

#350 swodem

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Posted 17 September 2017 - 04:59 AM

Zippity, on 17 Sept 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

The heat generated by the short, was sufficient enough to melt the solder joins on both tabs, cause the hardware on the positive side to fall off the motor, including both screws. The bottom plate remained in place.

 

A nice trail of white smoke was seen coming from the car :(

 

Here's the offending end-bell:

 

attachicon.gif4002eb.jpg

You sure its Positive? Looks like Negative side to me (end closest to guide)


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