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The Mabuchi 26D


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#26 havlicek

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 07:02 AM

Well, not to put too fine a point on all this.  A method of mounting a motor CAN be both crude and "smart".  You see these things on social media all the time and they call it "hillbilly engineering" or something like that.  Using the tab holes for sheetmetal screws may have been "smart", if it was the only way Classic could "afford" to do it (*although I already pointed out that even starving slot car companies could have, and DID do it a better way).  More than "smart", it seems like a sign of desperation.  It wasn't ingenious or even original either, since people had stuck screws in those holes as a way to secure the back end of the motor, whether it was can drive or not.

 

 

 

Every step in manufacturing cost time and money. Watch the penny’s the dollars will take care of themselves. I don’t think the manufacturer had that large of a profit margins nor did they really care about perfection. 

 

Yes, I and about anyone who is familiar with slot cars (past and present), as well as just general economics understands that full-well.  It doesn't change the fact that, *because* of low margins, some manufacturers made bad choices.  *Good engineering is about working within whatever budget is there and coming up with a good product.  This is "ah, just stick some screws in the can holes" engineering.  The cars were popular, kids loved them, they looked cool...and were built like doodie.

We're beating a dead-horse here.  There was obvious offense taken over this by both you and Maximo (*with his feigned "confusion" over simple English).  You love the cars so much you can't see the dumb stuff.  I loved the cars despite the obvious dumb stuff.  You think this method of motor mounting was ingenious, I (*and it seems Philippe) think it was crude.  No biggie, that's what makes a horse race!


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#27 olescratch

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 02:41 PM

Nuff Said!!


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#28 Gene/ZR1

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 06:17 PM

So the question all this brings up is:

Were there any "factory"-built chassis and brackets made for mounting Mabuchi motors using the holes made by the magnet stop tabs to use as screw-mounting holes?

This is something I've never heard of before, and I have to guess that neither has Joe Lupo.  I'm pretty sure that, in the past,  Philippe has said that there weren't any stock can-mounting options even for the Champion 26D motor cans that DID have two vertical holes.

 

 

https://www.ebay.com...5.c100005.m1851

 

This is the same bracket I used in my Cuc. so not trying to upset anyone, but it appears at the time a production bracket was available. :)

regards

 

44.jpg

my bracket

s-l1600 (4).jpg

as for sale on ebay


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#29 havlicek

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 07:46 PM

 

 

https://www.ebay.com...5.c100005.m1851

 

This is the same bracket I used in my Cuc. so not trying to upset anyone, but it appears at the time a production bracket was available. :)

regards

 

attachicon.gif44.jpg

my bracket

attachicon.gifs-l1600 (4).jpg

as for sale on ebay

 

 

Well, why would it upset anyone to find out that there was a "production bracket" that made use of the magnet stop tabs?  Right in this very discussion, I thought we agreed that there was "a bracket" that mounted the motor this way.  Having said that, I don't see where the the eBay item proves there's a "production bracket" that uses this method.  It may very well be the case, or it could be just a method using "a bracket" drilled this way.  In either case, the method is still crude, but it doesn't upset me in the least!  :)


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#30 Gene/ZR1

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 08:06 PM

 

 

Well, why would it upset anyone to find out that there was a "production bracket" that made use of the magnet stop tabs?  Right in this very discussion, I thought we agreed that there was "a bracket" that mounted the motor this way.  Having said that, I don't see where the the eBay item proves there's a "production bracket" that uses this method.  It may very well be the case, or it could be just a method using "a bracket" drilled this way.  In either case, the method is still crude, but it doesn't upset me in the least!  :)

John

It would be nice to know who made these brass motor mounts, mine was not modified\drilled and the ebay bracket is the same type.

thanks; g


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#31 havlicek

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 05:19 AM

Yep, I guess so.  That wouldn't upset me.  :)


John Havlicek

#32 don.siegel

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 12:35 PM

The only thing roughly similar that springs to mind is a bracket that Versitec made for its SS101 (the flatter, faster version of the SS91 Screamer). They had a wide bracket like this, with 1/4" bearing holes, and two holes on the sides of the large bearing hole as standard mounting for this motor. Not exactly the same layout, but that could be considered a can, and it was mounted on the can side. Will try to find a photo of one, or see if I have one in stock. 

 

One of these wider brackets could have just had additional holes drilled in it, or there could be a production bracket like this, but haven't run into one for the moment. 

 

Don 



#33 TSR

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 01:45 PM

I hope I will step on no one's foot here, I was asked on a PM to intervene in this little conflict. Since we are all enthusiasts, passionate about our little racing cars and their motors, no need for conflicts, I will offer here some of my acquired knowledge about these motors and their mounting methods.

First, let set something clearly and hopefully once and for all times: Mabuchi calls this basic motor, the FT26 line. They exist in three configurations, all with the same blue metric wire that is near AWG # 31:
1/ FT26 is always an endbell-side driven motor. Most common, hundreds of thousands if not millions, were produced from 1967 through 1970.
2/ FT26D is always a can-side driven motor. Much less common.
3/ FT26DS is the dual shaft, marketed by Classic as the CM470. There are very few other companies that marketed dual-shaft FT26 motors.

From these stock and quite fast motors with average brakes, the rewinders had a ball, with a vast number of models from Champion, Mura, Dyna-Rewind, U-Go and a plethora of others. But ALL save for the Champion "617", use the poor-quality, easily melting stock Delrin endbell. A very poor choice of material. Champion had their own endbell made out of Cycolac plastic, that had a higher melting point and allowed for a 'hotter" specification. But regardless, the FT26 line was doomed as a "better" motor because by the time it came out, the smaller, lighter FT16 had received enough improvements to not only be faster, with better brakes, but also offer better handling due to its lower center of gravity. Hence, it was doomed, but still provided plenty of great racing for amateurs while it lasted. Once the Champion "517", a co-production between Japan and America, and the American-made Mura M1000, were issued in late 1967 and mid- 1968, the FT26 became an obsolete rock.

The armature blanks shown by John H are likely a Champion product, used first on their endbell-side driven "617" motor, and later used in that guise by Champion and Champion only, in later variations of the 617, used for Group 15. This lamination style used thinner plates than the ones made by Mabuchi. These armature blanks were made in Japan for Champion, but NOT by Mabuchi. Champion knew quickly that their "617" motor was a blind alley because it never evolved, just changing name over the yars to liquidate the huge number of parts produced in 1968.

Now for the mounting issue: yes, I called the mounting of the motor in the Classic "Competition Asp" crude, and for the reasons as pointed out: it IS crude, but effective and far stronger than mounting the motor from its endbell, only retained by tabs bent over it, which is equally crude and much more prone to failure such as the endbell parting ways with the rest of the motor, which in case the motor is used as structural member, caused some pretty spectacular accidents and even, on-track fires!
Classic had a design engineer (you will read his name on my "never ending" book), who was first, a machinist. Hence he devised the mounting holes for the short # 1 self-tapping screws exactly on center of the wider part of the magnet retaining tabs, die-cut then bent inward.
Hence, while the mounting holes were effectively, a tapered rectangle instead of a proper round hole, it worked well and I have never seen or heard of anyone having any issue with that. So Gene's mounting is perfectly adequate even with only two screws.
As far as which company made the bracket, I will have to check on the dozens of different brackets at the LASCM because I remember seeing such, but never really paid any attention to them or who made them.
As far as endbell-side brackets for the FT26 motors, the one that first comes to mind is the Castle, still easily found today. I am not sure that Russkit made one: the Castle appears to be a Russkit copy of their very popular FT16 bracket, with an enlarged center hole.Champion of course had their own of nickel plated brass, where the mounting screw holes are joining the center hole. And there are others by Cobra, Phaze III, Ferret, Pactra, Du-Bro...

To conclude, I will have a look in the drawers where Scott has accumulated hundreds of these brackets and let you know of what I find.



 


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#34 Foamy

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 02:11 PM

I guess I was a little over-enthusiastic on my rewinding because I melted a lot of these motors as a kid.


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#35 TSR

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 02:56 PM

John Havlicek, here is where I believe your arm blanks came from. When Champion was sold to Carl Ford, lots of these blanks were left unwound and were slowly liquidated in various ways. This arm seen below, is one of the examples produced in the mid 1970s, when the company was still owned by Bob Rule:

603.jpg

 

 


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#36 havlicek

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 03:14 PM

 

 

I was asked on a PM to intervene in this little conflict

 

 

Hi Philippe.  ALWAYS glad to see you chiming-in with information, but there's no conflict here at all.  I DO however think that mounting a can this way is of course crude, and certainly more crude ("cruder"?) than to simply have two vertical holes drilled the way Champion did.  Still, if the builder is a little careful to not drive the screws crooked the first time the can holes are used, it should be fine and as you noted plenty strong.

On the lams, these are not lams produced by either Mabuchi or Champion and have a decidedly different (lighter) profile.  They are also .560" diameter, as opposed to the .590" diameter standard FT26 lams, and used for modern 16D motors with thinner magnets...and/or for intermediate sizes when grinding down as far as .540" or even less.  They can be used full-size however with the right combination of either magnets or magnets and shims, since they are also meant for a 2mm shaft.  


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#37 TSR

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 04:08 PM

Hi John, so who is the manufacturer? How can they fit inside a "16D" can? The max diameter we had at the time in (real) "16D" was about 0.535". The only other blanks I can think of are the ones Mura used in their Group-12 and Group-15 motors, using much thinner magnets. But this was many moons ago.


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#38 havlicek

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 05:24 PM

Hi Philippe,

     These were produced by RJR/Viper.  Modern 16D cans will fit a .560" diameter arm with EPX and similar magnets.  Since the internal dimensions of the modern 16D and vintage FT16D Mabuchis and Champion 16D motors, the combination of these lams and the very strong modern ceramic magnets makes for a potent "cheater" combination in the older motors.  When I press these (*they come loose on a rod), I usually make the stack shorter than the old FT16D motors ran, which makes for an even more zippy motor.  ProSlot (*and maybe others) also have similar .560" diameter lams, but with a different internal profile.

 

 

 

The only other blanks I can think of are the ones Mura used in their Group-12 and Group-15 motors, using much thinner magnets. But this was many moons ago.

 

 

You are of course correct sir!, but I haven't used blanks for a long time, and almost always press and powder coat my own stacks.  Those old Mura Group12/15 blanks were close to .590" right?  (*I haven't seen them for a while, so my failing memory may have betrayed me here).  Thanks again for the information.  There's more in your post above regarding the 26D than many people will easily get a hold of, even with "Google".  :D


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#39 TSR

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 04:35 PM

John, thanks. I am not familiar with modern slot car motors, my interest stops at 1974. What happens after is mostly a mystery to me.


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#40 havlicek

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Posted 15 December 2017 - 09:11 PM

John, thanks. I am not familiar with modern slot car motors, my interest stops at 1974. What happens after is mostly a mystery to me.

 

Yep, understood.  They're all pretty much the same to me...glorious little mysteries.  :)


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#41 TSR

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 12:24 PM

:laugh2:

Fortunately, you will discover all of the incorrectly named "26D" varieties in that never-ending book of mine... :)
Working hard on last details and having to shorten the "pro-racing" chapter as it was becoming too long and boring.


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Philippe de Lespinay


#42 Don Weaver

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 02:07 PM

Speaking of the book​, will you be offering a signed first edition, and if so, where do I sign up?

 

Don


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#43 TSR

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 09:08 PM

Don, not my decision.


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#44 pn6

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 10:11 PM

Last post here in 2017!!! In defense of the mighty blue wire FT26 that my Dynamic Sidewinder Ferrari came with I won more "Kit Car" races with that car/motor than any other car of that period. I believe it was 1966. Recently I took it to the nearest track (BPR) and it was still fast until it threw a winding. Now I'm searching for an unused blue wire to replace it. This one could be rebuilt but the endbell has seen too many race days and I too would melt motors trying to rewind them.

 

A good source would be appreciated. I missed a purple can on ebay and am kicking myself about that one!

 

Also the motor mounts with one screw in the endbell (bottom hole) and uses a spacer drilled for those crude holes in the can. I use just one self tapper there as well and it works fine.

 

I was addicted to these things back then and if I was closer to the track I think I'd be right back in it again!! For now running once in a while suffices.


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#45 Don Weaver

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 11:23 AM

Get John Havlicek to do a mild rewind/rebuild for you.  He's the best!

 

Don


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#46 Gene/ZR1

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 05:34 PM

Last post here in 2017!!! In defense of the mighty blue wire FT26 that my Dynamic Sidewinder Ferrari came with I won more "Kit Car" races with that car/motor than any other car of that period. I believe it was 1966. Recently I took it to the nearest track (BPR) and it was still fast until it threw a winding. Now I'm searching for an unused blue wire to replace it. This one could be rebuilt but the endbell has seen too many race days and I too would melt motors trying to rewind them.

 

A good source would be appreciated. I missed a purple can on ebay and am kicking myself about that one!

 

Also the motor mounts with one screw in the endbell (bottom hole) and uses a spacer drilled for those crude holes in the can. I use just one self tapper there as well and it works fine.

 

I was addicted to these things back then and if I was closer to the track I think I'd be right back in it again!! For now running once in a while suffices.

 

 

Here ya go!  brand new

 

https://www.ebay.com...ass!48315!US!-1


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#47 Don Weaver

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 05:44 PM

Endbell looks burnt.  Maybe from soldering new lead wires on; the solder joints don't look factory to me, but then what do I know!

 

Don


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#48 TSR

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 06:13 PM

Don, no, it is a genuine motor, untouched. Often the laborer touched the endbell with the iron because all the Mabuchi motors had their lead wires soldered "in reverse", meaning that they were looped in the post's hole from the can side.


Philippe de Lespinay


#49 Don Weaver

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 09:02 PM

Philippe,

 

As I said "...what do I know...". :crazy:   Thanks for the correction!

 

Don


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it will starve to death...


#50 Bill from NH

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Posted 08 January 2020 - 10:42 PM

When you hit one of those endbells with a soldering iron, you got a strong scent like smelling salts.


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