52 replies to this topic

[Pappy]

Smokeio is one of the best in world at setting up one of these cars. He’s on Slot Car Corner’s team, they’ve won this race six out of eight times. He’s also one of the nicest guys you’d ever meet. He called me up one day and gave me all kinds of tips on setting-up cars and answered any questions I had. All the guys at Slot Car Corner and Clover Leaf Racing are like this; they all want to help the competition, they know it’s good for business and slot racing. You won’t find a greater bunch of guys to race with than this crowd. 

 

I’ve never had a problem with breaking chassis before but I have never tried to run a Racer/Sideways car before. It was not the fault of the Racer/Sideways car, they are great handling cars and very reliable cars, it was because I poured boiling hot water on it to straighten is out and it made the plastic brittle. Most chassis it doesn’t do this to, it must just be the type of plastic they use.

 

I don’t know how the Chicago team broke their chassis or why but I did see one of them and it broke the plastic where the guide flag goes in. That is a weak point because the plastic as to be so thin for the guide flag to rotate.

 

To compare a 1/24 steel flexi chassis to a 1/32 plastic chassis is like comparing a flexi chassis to a spring steel Group 7 chassis. 

 

I’ve seen a number of Retro chassis get destroyed in the six-hour Retro endurance race in Columbus. It happened to us; we got knocked out of the slot in the finger by a turn marshal and became a rider and slammed the wall in the 90. Bent the chassis and that was pretty much the end of the race for us. In another race we lost a motor and went 60 laps down only to come back and win because other teams got their chassis bent.

 

Mike, you need to talk to the guys on the Chicago team and see if you can race with them next year. I think you’ll be enlightened and I know you’ll have fun.

[MSwiss]

I'm surprised as long as these 1/32 plastic cars have been around, they are designed with weak spots, like you describe, around the guide. Also, I would have thought the issue with warping would have been remedied.

Have all the 3D printed parts out there fixed any of these issues?

I took the exact same kind of trip into the 90 wall at TT, at R4/4, in the Can-Am Main.

It's real solid.

I survived with a little body damage, and a loose tire sliding along the flat on the axle for a heat, but no chassis damage, maybe because my Z-rail design, has some give to it.

On a subsequent conversation with Howie, I suggested that the "ridered into the 90" problem could possibly be minimized by doing the counterintuitive measure of adjusting your guide nut so the guide flag does not center.

[Pappy]

I'm surprised as long as these 1/32 plastic cars have been around, they are designed with weak spots, like you describe, around the guide.

It's the only way they can make everything fit. The guide flags are small so there's not a lot of room to work with. Same with around the motor pod, gotta get it all in.
 

Also, I would ohave thought the issue with warping, would of been remedied.

When was the last time all the parts on a Retro kit were perfect? Hard to keep parts perfect even when they are die cut and bent.
 

Have all the 3D printed parts out there fixed any of these issues?

Yes.
 

I took the exact same kind of trip into the 90 wall at TT at R4/4, in the Can-Am Main.

It's real solid.

I survived with a little body damage, and a loose tire sliding along the flat on the axle for a heat, but no chassis damage, maybe because my Z-rail design, has some give to it.

You were just lucky it hit right.

[DE38]

I have read a couple times that the boiling water was poured on the chassis and I can see how this might shock the plastic and cause it to break.

 

According to the instructions on the Slot.it website you are not supposed to pour the water directly on the chassis; rather you pour it next to it and let it slowly cover the chassis then put it into a 200 degree preheated oven and let it cool down overnight.

 

I use a glass baking pan and mag the chassis down to 1/8 inch thick piece of steel.

 

I think if you use this method you might not break any more chassis.

[Pappy]

Charlie,
 
That's exactly what I do and it works on Slot.it chassis but evidently the plastic on a Racer/Sideways chassis is different. Slot.it and NSR also have different chassis depending on how much flex you want.
 
A couple of years ago Professor Motor came out with a new guide flag that really looked good. Only problem was they broke real easy. Someone figured out that if you boiled them in water for like ten minutes they didn't break anymore. I boiled mine and it seems to work but I wouldn't trust it for a 24-hour race. So I do know boiling water will change the hardness of the plastic.

[MSwiss]

It's the only way they can make everything fit. The guide flags are small so there's not a lot of room to work with. Same with around the motor pod, gotta get it all in.
 
When was the last time all the parts on a Retro kit were perfect? Hard to keep parts perfect even when they are die cut and bent.

I think you would surprised how close to perfect my and some of the JK Retro parts are.
 
I just expected with the much bigger market for 1/32 scale plastic cars, they would be terrific. I might be basing my high expectations for them, based on how incredibly nice the bodies are.
 

You were just lucky it hit right.

 
You're probably right.
 
Design, bracing, and solder joints probably had zero to do with it, and the noise that sounded like a gunshot under Mike's bridge was an "aural illusion."
 
Whatever it was, I was still pretty proud of getting dug out of there early in the race, and still competing for the win.
 
Matt Bruce - 288.01 laps, fast lap 4.803 secs
Ron Hershman - 286.06, 4.771
Tom Lauterbach - 285.06, 4.789
Mike Swiss - 285.03, 4.799
Jeff Lauterbach - 284.05, 4.871
Tom Calvert - 279.01, 4.947
Cap Henry - 149.00, 4.927
Ralph Thorne - 108.00, 4.839

[Dave Crevie]

The Retro kits I have done are actually very good for flatness and guide tongue alignment. Even if there was a problem, it was easily straightened. Not so easy with plastic chassis that were "pushed" during the injection molding process, where the molder was shortening the dwell time on the machine to increase number of shots per hour.

There is seldom any real attempt for the Chinese to make dead flat parts. They are looking to make higher profit. So that leaves us with having to find a way to flatten them when we get them. Of course, the importer representatives have told me I'm wrong. I guess my nearly fifty years in the business means I don't know s**t.
 
By the way, I straightened plastic chassis but placing weights at strategic points of the chassis, with it on a granite surface plate, then repeated careful heating with a heat gun. It's a slow process, but it worked best.

[Pappy]

I think you would surprised how close to perfect my and some of the JK Retro parts are.

I've read articles on building Retro chassis and seems like one of the first things they tell you to do is sand the face of the motor bracket so the motor mounts flush against it. Then check the motor bracket to make sure everything is square. Then check the pans to make sure they sit flat on the jig. Then check the front axle uprights to make they are square with the bottom of the center section. Jay Guard told me one time he'll spend a couple of hours just making sure the guide flag is perfectly straight up and down and has the right tilt and the brass is flat so the guide swivels side to side right. 
 
If all these parts are so true why would anyone have to check any of that? And have you ever seen a flexi chassis that was anywhere near true?
 
Anything mass produced is not going to be precision.

[MSwiss]

I've read articles on building Retro chassis and seems like one of the first things they tell you to do is sand the face of the motor bracket so the motor mounts flush against it.

Was that article using my bracket? I doubt it.
 
The next time you see Bud Bartos. He's the biggest user of my motor bracket. Ask him if he sands the face of it.
 
Regardless, with it's tiny market, I don't consider hardly any 1/24 parts "mass produced."
 
I got the impression 1/32 did big numbers. Maybe I overestimated what they produce and sell.
 
And regardless of the numbers, I don't understand why the bodies aren't warped, but the chassis are.

[Dave Crevie]

Butch:
 
You need to learn how to read instructions. All that you quoted is just good assembly procedure. It only says to check those items, not that they are all bad.

Did you ever make a salad? Did you check all the ingredients for bacteria?

[Pappy]

I've never seen a Retro slot car chassis come with instructions, that must be something new.
 
I usually just check the expiration dates on the ingredients. Do slot car parts have expiration dates??? I've never had an urge to eat one so I've never looked. 

[Dave Crevie]

What would you call the articles you quoted?

[Pappy]

You need to learn how to read instructions. All that you quoted is just good assembly procedure. It only says to check those items, not that they are all bad. Did you ever make a salad? Did you check all the ingredients for bacteria?

 

Dave,

 

I read the articles and they said to check all these things. Why would they say to check all these things if all the parts are so perfect? 

[Pappy]

And regardless of the numbers, I don't understand why the bodies aren't warped, but the chassis are.

Different material: hard plastic bodies, flexible plastic chassis.

[Pablo]

Why compare 1/24 to 1/32? The gentlemen in the photos look like they are having fun.
Yamaha invented the phrase "Different strokes for different folks."
 
"Can't we all just get along?" (Rodney King)

[MSwiss]

I had one the Great Lakes members, who also races 1/24, come in last night to buy some 1/24 parts.

He was not at the enduro, but recalled that at the enduro at M/A, his team had to replace every part on the car.

Some other insight he had was, the more expensive and competitive the car, the more fragile it is.

Also, when I asked if it was necessary to boil all chassis, to be competitive, he said it was on a case by case basis.

"If one of the front tires is 1/8" of an inch, up in the air, you have to boil it. You don't have a choice".

Again, I guess I expected with higher volume, you would see better quality and QC, but apparently not the case.

I guess if it was a perfect World, you would have something like the old standby, the demon brass chassis, under those great looking bodies.

[Pappy]

Again, I guess I expected with higher volume, you would see better quality and QC, but apparently not the case.

Do you mean like the Retro Hawk motor that so many bitch about?
 
As far as replacing every part on the car, the winning team in this race didn't replace anything. Neither did the second place team. Neither did the third place team (us). Same motor, same tires, same body, same chassis, same gears, same braid, same everything. We did adjust the braids a few times and clean the tires a number of times but that only takes a few seconds. 
 
Do a 24 hour 1/24 Retro race and see what happens. 

[Pappy]

The gentlemen in the photos look like they are having fun

Hi Pablo,
 
This is why I race these 1/32 scale cars and not Retro cars anymore, I'm having fun. When I get home from this race I'm planning for the race next year. I wish we could do this about four times a year.
 
We don't even have tech inspection before the race. We fill out a sheet telling the manufacturer of every major part on the car. After the race they take the body off and check to make sure you didn't lie on the sheet or do any illegal bracing on the chassis, if you did you are DQ'd.
 
You can use any motor you want because it is so easy to overpower the car, so there is no way you can cheat with the motor.

[Dave Crevie]

Glad you are having fun with the plastic cars. That is what slot racing is all about. But don't badmouth what the rest of

us do. In the seven years that I did 1/32nd plastic car racing, I never once found a flat chassis, not even the Lexan ones. 

But being the person who checked the JK products before they went on the market, I have documentation that the

original production samples of both the stamped steel and brass parts were within acceptable limits. The ones that

were not, represented a acceptable percentage of rejection. Granted, the tooling now has a lot of wear, and could

be in need of refurbishing. But still, it is far easier to straighten a brass or steel chassis than a plastic one.

 

Did your article say that ALL the JK parts were bad? I doubt it. You are assuming that because the article suggested

that you check the parts, that they are. If you don't want to use the JK parts, don't. That is your choice to make. As for

the rest of us, we're happy they are still available. 

[Pappy]

Dave, I'm not the one badmouthing what the rest of you do, you and Swiss are the one's badmouthing what I do, and not once did I mention JK parts other than the Retro Hawk motor that a lot of "other" people are bitching about being so inconsistent. Swiss mentioned JK products, not me. I like JK Products.  Get your "facts" straight, Dave. 

 

When it comes to Retro racing I do know a little bit about it. I was an adviser to the board when we made the rules for the IRRA. I am also the one who started the Ohio Valley Retro series that is now the Ohio Retro series. I also received the  "Mac" award at the R4 that I am very proud of for my contributions to Retro racing. Do you have one? I'm not even sure Swiss has one.

[Bill from NH]

Butch, is repainting these hardbody 1/32 car a popular task, so a field of the same color cars doesn't show up to race? It wasn't too popular in 1/24 during the 60's when I first started slot racing, but I think it's more popular to do now. In the day, I did have a fluorescent pink Cox Ferrari F1, but it was painted that way to be more easily seen as it constantly deslotted.

[Pappy]

Bill, I've never seen two cars painted the same in the Michigan 24 race. When we race locally we do get cars painted the same occasionally but there's a big enough selection of bodies made that it's not a real problem. Most companies that make these cars make what they call a white kit. It's just a plain white body that you have to put all the parts on and paint yourself. They really aren't to popular because for just a few dollars more you can get a car with a body that is already assembled and decal'd to look like a real car.  

[Bill from NH]

Thanks for the reply.

[SlotStox#53]

Plastic car endurance racing rocks Amazing how well this stuff lasts.

Standard HO cars on a scale LeMans track by Brad Bowman.. FUN for 24hrs at the DHORC event.

This looks cool for 32nd, impressed the wire connectors last. Hate those little eyelets that push into the guide holding the braid in.

Great race & event, I'd love to have a go!

Be cool to see if someone can organize a Retro/scratch brass 24 hr event.

[MSwiss]

Dave, I'm not the one badmouthing what the rest of you do, you and Swiss are the one's badmouthing what I do, and not once did I mention JK parts other than the Retro Hawk motor that a lot of "other" people are bitching about being so inconsistent. Swiss mentioned JK products, not me. I like JK Products.  Get your "facts" straight, Dave. 
 
When it comes to Retro racing I do know a little bit about it. I was an adviser to the board when we made the rules for the IRRA. I am also the one who started the Ohio Valley Retro series that is now the Ohio Retro series. I also received the  "Mac" award at the R4 that I am very proud of for my contributions to Retro racing. Do you have one? I'm not even sure Swiss has one.

Pappy,
Get your facts straight.

Go back and reread this thread and show me my post where I badmouth what you do.

My first post complimented the race, on the close finish, between the top 2 teams.

I made a passing remark about being surprised that these chassis breaking seems to still be an issue.

IOW, I was surprised the same group of guys that broke their chassis at a 24 hour enduro, 7 or 8 years ago, is still breaking them, at this last enduro, they participated.

I thought the plastic car companies would have had them figured out in that time frame.

I never said racing plastic car racing is inferior, or Retro is better.

You are the one who made a poor argument for plastic car racing when you made the comment "You can put a hundred dollars into one of these cars only to find out it won't keep up."

You are the one that turned it into a comparison with Retro.

Retro, or any other form of slot racing didn't get brought up until you did.

PS-I had the honor of receiving the Mac award the 2nd year it was given out, in 2009, at R4/2, along with Noose.