92 replies to this topic

[MSwiss]

While I'm working on a way to greatly reduce post breakage on the weighted/low CG graphite Red Fox guides I sell, racers are mentioning to me about the the guide pocket breaking, in a real bad wreck.
 
I mentioned to a top racer, the possibility of padding the inside of the body area, with either that red dampening rubber, some racers add to their Retro chassis, or if there is enough room, that sticky, spongy mounting tape.
 
I've also thought of the concept of trimming back the plastic, so the the back of the clip takes up the shock, vs. the front edge.
 
In the case of my new guide clips, I could form them a little longer on the bottom surface, so the curve in front of the clip doesn't "hug" that front edge.
 
That wouldn't require trimming back the top of the pocket, but it would reduce body clearance in the front.(a plus is it would hold the braid in slightly better, with the brass extending further forward)
 
Opinions welcome (other than use another guide) on whether this would work, or at least help.

[olescratch]

  Is it a fact that the clips are causing the problem, if so, then moving the point of impact back should help solve that problem, but by removing the material from that area may weaken it.

[swodem]

I’d like to see a pic of some damaged/broken ones...

[Racer36]

I would worry that anything you do to prevent the braid pocket peeling up or breaking might concentrate that force on the post and break it. The energy has to go somewhere.

[MSwiss]

Like I said in my post, the post will eventually be taken care of.

[old & gray]

Your modification of the pocket looks good Mike. My suggestion is to have a generous radius in the corners of your cut out, to reduce the sharp corner where a tear would start (stress concentration).

[Shiggy]

I’d like to see a pic of some damaged/broken ones...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Broken braid pockets are the common failure for me. I would post pics but have tossed out the broken guides

[MSwiss]

Here's a bad pic from one of the local racers.

I asked him to try again.

[MSwiss]

I'd like to see a pic of some damaged/broken ones...

Here's some better ones.

[Bryan Warmack]

I don't have any pics of the damaged guides as I have just tossed them but splitting the braid box has been a common problem for myself and many racers at BPR and strangely and invariably it seems to be on the left side...?  For a while, at least for me, the braid box opening up on an impact has actually been more of an issue than the snapping of the post. 
 
Since I have been pinning the posts (thanks to Mike Swiss) I haven't broken a single post and since I have been coating the front of the braid and guide with the glue E6000 to make a little bumper I haven't torn open a braid box.
 

 
I know it looks crude and hoakie but it seems to work. E6000 is kind of hard to apply as it is rather thick but levels extremely well and dries pretty quick. I use two coats and try to build up the area in front of the braid and clip and around the sides of the braid box with a skewer stick. It acts as a bumper as the E6000 is unbelievably tough and elastic. I make sure to build it up thick enough to make a small cap and when I need to change braid I can grab one end and peal the entire strip off in one piece even though the E6000 sticks extremely well and is very elastic.
 
Like I said I know it looks pretty silly but it seems to have definitely reduced my broken guide issues!

[swodem]

Thanks for the pics

My instinct would be to cut a scallop from the underside outer front edge of the guide clip of about 1/3 of its width, could easily be done with a dremel grinding bit, so the guide clip can not exert any tearing force in that corner area.

[MSwiss]

I was PM'ed by a top racer, who runs half clips, and solders his wire to it, in that slot, and he said he still has the braid pocket split on occasion.

I think the front wraparound of the clip is important, to help take the hit.

[Cheater]

I'd like to see a pic of some damaged/broken ones...

This has been a problem for a long time. Here's a pic from a guide tutorial I posted back in 2011.

[Bryan Warmack]

As seen in Greg's pic most of the damage seems to be sustained on the left hand braid pocket. I can't remember having one or even seeing one cut on the right hand side. And this goes back to the early Parmas... I wonder why the huge disparity in right vs. left??

[Cheater]

Bryan,

I have a drawer with probably a hundred worn and broken guides; I did keep them as I used them in chassis building. I'll look tomorrow to see if I can find any broken on the righthand side.

[MSwiss]

The one that happened to Keith Libby, at the last Retro East race, is on the left side.

Spooky. LOL.

[Cheater]

The guides probably break on the right side in the Southern Hemisphere. Somebody check with Gugu...

[John Streisguth]

A lot of "deadman" turns are right turns, so that may be why the left side of the guide is the one broken. Also the "90" on a King. If you're a rider, that's where you'll take the worst hits

[Cheater]

Much of the braid box splitting is likely the result of striking the rear part of another car's chassis, especially a stamped-steel chassis like a flexi. Works like a dull knife to 'slice' it open, as I view it. Don't think this sort of damage is being caused by hitting the wall...

[btk]

I’ve been using these in a lot of oval races, so all of the turns are left turns.

I don’t have any of the broken ones, but they have all been the left pocket.

[MSwiss]

Greg,

From the type of split, and type of car you raced, your assumption makes a bit of sense.

But Retro cars don't have that type of a back of a car.

Also, in the case of the Red Fox, they split or peel up on the top, like my picture.

IMO, they are breaking from intense shock.

John Austin broke one, on the original Red Fox guide, about a year ago, hitting my hand while marshaling another car.

My hands are not like a dull knife. They are soft as the leather on an expensive woman's glove.

[Cheater]

OK, here's the results of this morning's great guide survey...

There were exactly 150 guides in my junk guide drawer: mostly Parma pink nylon and black graphite, a fair number of Starbursts, a few Jet Flags, and maybe a Slick 7 or two.

There were 37 guides that showed damage to the braid box area, some badly split, some gouged or dented to a greater or lesser extent. On a handful the top of the braid box was peeled up, like on the Red Fox guide in Mike's pic.

21 of the guides showed damage on the left (driver's) side.

10 showed damage on the right side.

6 showed damage equally on both sides.

Interestingly none of my ancient Jet Flags showed any braid pocket damage whatsoever, nor did any of the Starburst guides.

[Eddie Fleming]

Interesting, Greg.

Do you have any idea when you quit using the Starburst guides.

Were the Starburst and Jet guides better in some way or has something outside the guide changed to make the pocket damage more prevalent?

[MSwiss]

My guess is that it's material related.

In my long wing car career, I used mostly the graphite Starburst, and I don't remember braid pocket issues.

IIRC, in a bad wreck, mostly the guide nut would pop off of the post.

[Cheater]

As to when I stopped using the Starburst guides, WAG would be around 1990 or so.

Here's a couple of pics of those guides.

Starburst:



Jet Flag:



The Starburst guide seems to be almost identical to the later Parma guide, except for the leadwire slots in the top surface.

The Jet Flag is a different design.

As to why I don't see any damage on these two brands of guides, your guess is as good as mine...