86 replies to this topic

[Zippity]

Someone, somewhere recently posted the specs for the Falcon motors, along with the specs for some of the other "lower" end motors.

For the life of me, I cannot find that posting. I knew I should have bookmarked it then an there.

Would the "owner" of the specs mind if I was to include the details in the can/armature specs that I have posted on my web site?

Thanks.

[Ron Hershman]

THIS what you're looking for???

[Zippity]

Right on the button.

Thanks.

[mdiv]

Hey Zip!

Have you tried Patto's Little Ripper? If so, whatcha think of it?

So far I have not met one FK-type motor that I like - Falcon 2, 5, 7, Fox, Slick 7, Little Ripper, etc.

The TSRF motors that were in the IROC cars that PdL had at Dom's last weekend were cool but I just can't get a taste for 1/32.

On to other topics.

- Mike

[Zippity]

I haven't tried Patto's little number, but I do love racing Falcons in C11 chassis, or Champion's Turbo Flexi.

[Bill from NH]

So far I have not met one FK-type motor that I like - Falcon 2, 5, 7, Fox, Slick 7, Little Ripper, etc.

Mikey, that's quite a variety of FK-type motors. You don't like them why? Because they're sealed motors? Or because you don't like their performance on commercial tracks? Explain yourself!!

I have a Little Ripper given to me by a friend. I've not had it in a car yet, but I'm told its performance should be something between a Plafit Fox and a Cheetah.

[Cheater]

I was wondering the same thing, Mikey.

Why specifically don't you like the FK motors of any flavor?

Zip, the motor specs are also posted IN THIS THREAD (see post #3) here at Slotblog.

Speaking as a member of the IRRA BoD, there's no problem with your posting this info to your website.

[Marty Stanley]

One of the characteristics of the Falcon 7 motor that I personally like a whole lot is that it provides a whole lot of performance for not a lot of money.

If you take a chassis with a Parma DeathStar 501 fresh off the shelf and the same chassis with a Falcon 7 fresh off the shelf, the Falcon 7 will simply walk away for the Parma DeathStar.

I have also seen similar results with the Falcon 7 vs the Pro-Slot "Sealed 16D" PS2002. One of the best racers at the track I primarily race at had a "set-up" PS2002 one night and I had an off-the-shelf Falcon 7. We were both running 4.5 sec lap times. The Falcon 7 did it for less money and less work.

One of the main reasons I see the "JK D3 Spec Class" as being popular is that I hope it yields the close type of racing that I am expecting to see. One chassis, one motor, three bodies. Now that is about as close the the IROC style of racing that I like ot see.

We get a chance to 'kick off' the Retro Racing - ala IRRA/SERRA rules here in Florida next Saturday. I'm hoping to have 10 to 15 racers there for the event!

[TSR]

The motors in the TSR IROC cars at Dom's were the mild "home-racing" version of the TSR motors. While the TSR D3 is a much faster motor, we feel that the milder motor is more suited for those little 1/32 scale cars and provided plenty of adequate performance. The other advantage is that you can run these cars for HUNDREDS of hours (proven figure) without any worries about motor life.

For 10 bucks, it is hard to find a better deal, knowing that most other home-racing motors from most home-racing companies provide less performance AND shorter life for a LOT more money.

[NY Nick]

Thanks, Ron, for the info.

[mdiv]

Hiyas all, thanks for letting me speak up!

My main source of contempt for FK motors is that all of the ones I've tried have BLOWN UP after less than two races on American Hillclimbs, which equates to about 500 laps give or take, if you add practice time.

Compare these results to that of a Parma Deathstar, Super 16D, Kelly balanced 16D, etc. On these motors I have had as much as 2,500 laps per motor. Consider next that some of these "blown up" motors can then be used in other race classes at my local raceway. Hrm...

Let me throw one final factor into the equation then I will move on; These same 16D motors that I have had phenomenal performance with cost between $12.49 and $13.49 plus tax. Certainly, if a motor lasts five times longer and only costs at most $5 more (Slick 7 for example) or as little as $1 more (JK Falcon 7), which would you choose?

I promise this is the last thing I have to add in: WHY must we reduce the size of our motor? Are we looking for the cars to go faster? If so, WHY? Why do you need to be doing 3 second laps on a "knife fight in a phone booth?" Why do you need to get 4.3 sec on an American Hillclimb? Why, why, oh why do we NEED to go so fast?

Personally, I would rather keep things slow. Why do I choose that route? Because I get DIZZY!!!

Please, tell me I am crazy.

- Mike

[TSR]

Mike,

All I can say is that not all FK-sized motors are born equal. There are DOZENS of different Chinese manufacturers making FK-sized motors. The vast majority of these mills is, as you aptly describe, junk. We experienced these issues at the beginning of D3 racing and did what we had to do to resolve the issue: make our own motor.

Since then, we have run over a year of great racing where motors have hardly been an issue.

For D3 racing, speed was never a factor, reliability and as equal performance as can be achieved (giving an even hand to all racers) was our goal. I can tell you that the vast majority of our racers believe that we have achieved both, after we were able to get them to have our Chinese manufacturer make exactly what we wanted with the most precise quality control.

And for having raced with Deathstar 16Ds for a while, I can tell you that performance equality was nowhere as even as we get with our "cheap" Chinese motors. In fact that lack of even performance killed the vintage class we had then (that was five years ago) as racers simply left the series in disgust, and I was one of them.

We now race our own FKs for three to four races with no issues before they eat their brushes. But if run at no more than 12 volts they will easily last 24 hours, and I know because we have done it.

Higher track voltage is obviously a big factor in how long these motors last. For your info, I ran the current motor I use at the Long Island D3 race (won it), then put it in my F1 car and ran the Kingleman race yesterday (finished in 5th place), then put it in my Can-Am ride and won. And the motor is still just fine, showing little wear on the brushes. I use NO comm drops and oil only the pinion side.

So as I said, not all FKs are born equal.

If I was to make a new motor, I would use the same arm, can, and magnets and make a new metal endbell with removable brushes and a single spring somewhat like the old Pittman motors but with a lower profile. The current can, magnets, and arm are simply great. The brush setup works fine but the brushes are a bit short, causing a shorter life than that of a 16D and a throwaway condition after the brushes have worn out.

The thing is, at 10 bucks a piece, it is hardly worth the effort as my tire and body budget is higher than my motor budget! So why bother.

[Bill from NH]

Mikey,

If they've all blown up, I'd think either gearing was an issue or perhaps the track(s) has a component of AC ripple.

[mdiv]

Dokk:

Understood, sir!

Bill:

I gear 3.5 or so. AC ripple is being looked at.

The motors are the problem.

- Mike

[TSR]

We gear 8/29 for short tracks and 9/27 for King tracks.

[mdiv]

Maybe it is the controller. I'm working on that issue, or at least trying to!

- Mike

[Cheater]

Mikey,

Somethings going on IMO.

We've run five SERRA events, with three classes each time and at as many raceways, and have had only two or three F7s blow IIRC.

And none of the other retro groups are reporting anywhere near the problems with F7s you are seeing.

[mdiv]

Greg,

Be that as it may, I am unhappy with the performance/cost ratio of the F7 verses that of a Parma DeathStar.

I have also noticed no one has cleared up my issue of WHY you guys are itching to go so fast.

- Mike

[Noose]

Mikey,

These aren't that fast when you compare them to motors used in other classes of racing such the Wasp/Contenders they use in ISRA for example. Then when you get into Wing cars it's a whole different story. Lap times of 1.4 seconds on a 155' King.

At Dom's, for example, Matt Bruce took my 1/32 Eurosport for a run and turned a 3.9 with it. That's 1/32 scale!!! He wasn't even trying!

The FK style motor is fine and provides a great deal of enjoyable racing for many classes in slot racing.

As to why we want to go fast... hmm... I believe it's called racing.

[Larry Mattingly]

Taking the best from the above replies...

There are many, including at least one IRRA board member who DOES believe the current retro cars are too fast. I would agree.

The low-profile design of the mini-motor, versus a C or D can, makes the cars handle better. That is not a bad thing.

The 16D motors, of the sealed variety, are not consistent in performance, but have a longer life span.. The mini-motors are much more consistent, but don't live as long... particularly at higher voltages. PdL says TSR motors will run for 24 hours on 12 volts of power.

I think the answer is obvious...

Race the current mini-motors in retro on 12-13 volts MAXIMUM!

You slow the cars down, while maintaining the excellent handling characteristics we now enjoy...

You increase the longevity (that is what I'm told by motor gurus), while still maintaining the consistent performance levels the mini-motors provide...

And, as an added bonus... the racing becomes cleaner (less deslotting), and MORE competitive. Mike Swiss has proven this theory to be true at Chicagoland.

All of the above equals more FUN for the average/casual racer. And, in most cases, it is all accomplished by simply turning a knob, or disconnecting the power supply from the batteries.

Why is this brain surgery 101?

LM

[TSR]

Falcon and TSR D3 racing:



Parma Deathstar racing

[mdiv]

Thanks, Larry.

Just a heads-up fellas - I appreciate the time spent at the last IRRA event at Dom's however that is my first and my last.

I thank you, Joe, for lending me two very excellent cars to compete and to the good Dokk for the IROC race, however this stuff just does not tickle my fancy.

In fact, overall, NO RACING tickles my fancy except for vintage slot car activities. Cox, Dynamic, Kemtron, Kal-Kar, you name it, I love it. Thingies. Garvic, Testor, Classic, MPC. You name it, I love it. Russkit!

Brass and wire can kiss my scrawny white arse. I-15 can do the same. Glue-loving wart hogs as well. Group 27, Group 12, Group 20, whatever. Blech!

Exiting now as I am getting too excited.

- Mike

[TSR]

Mike,

We are trying to create a true vintage class in SoCal with only 1960s stuff. Difficult because parts are tough to find nowadays and few are really interested.

We have an ample supply of Russkit 22s and if we can find enough period chassis we could put something together. We were thinking of the Champion wire job but they are mostly available for 26Ds that are not so easy to find... Dynamic chassis might be the thing, who knows? The bodies would only be correct-scale Lancer replicas (no chopped/channeled bodies would be allowed) with 1" fronts and 1-1/16" rears. Full sidewinder or inline only, no anglewinders.

Pipe dream?

There is always the Internet for bench racing.

[Larry Mattingly]

Mike:

'Garvic'...

Those things were pure evil back in the 1960s... I'm surprised any survived!

All of them should have been burnt in a sacrificial bonfire to the slot racing God of handling.

I agree with Larry S. Most of that '60s RTR stuff was pure 'junk'. Might be nice to look at in a museum to recall the 'bad days', but that is about it.

LM

[Ron Hershman]

To each his own.