60 replies to this topic

[Matt Sheldon]

Do they tech guides thoroughly?

 

If you use a HP guide in IRRA Retro... yes. It is too long out of the bag and needs to be trimmed back to 1.060".

[Jay Guard]

....I've found manufacturers will dance around facts by quoting the metal purity without expressing the actual density. Pure tungsten has a density of 19.25 g/cm3. To form a very high purity of tungston and retain a high density you must add a binder. For our purposes you want your binder to be a relatively heavy metal such as nickle and or copper.

 

David:

 

To get the highest density of tungsten you would need to have pure tungsten, which is available. Unfortunately it is very expensive and somewhat difficult to find. In addition it tends to be brittle and and is extremely difficult to process. The "binders" or alloys you are talking about exist to improve the useful qualities of "tungsten" so that it can be better used for TIG welding, EDM electrodes, or various machined items, among other things. The materials you are talking about do not increase the density and in fact actually lower it.

[Ecurie Martini]

Then, of course, there is gold - expensive, yes, but very easy to work.

 

EM

[Pappy]

You buy the guide that is available. What you do with the guide after you get it is your business.

 

I seem to remember a while back where a track owner was complaining about and outlawed a weighted guide because the weights kept falling out and getting all over the track and in the slots. Are there any manufacturing standards set for weighted guides?

[MSwiss]

That was me.

I'm as much concerned about the metal becoming exposed, and rubbing against the inside of my slot.

A racer had told me he saw one, with a shiny polished disc, where the epoxy holding it in, had worn away.

I already had banned, a few years earlier, a guide from a local racer, where he had glued metal balls in the blade, that were slightly bigger than the width of the blade.

That was obviously worse, because the metal was designed to be exposed.

BTW, I let that racer, who goes by the moniker, Ricky Bobby, to take a few laps, to record a few lap times, to show that it wasn't an advantage.

[gotboostedvr6]

Pure tungsten is only available in powder form. At least for us mortals bound by financial restrictions.

Solid forms of tungsten must be sintered using a binder. All available and useful binders are of a lower density then tungsten.

I stand by my previous statement.

[Dave Crevie]

I was a toolmaker and designer for getting on to 50 years, and of course, involved with metallurgy. The ASTM allows for a certain amount of impurity in all grades of all metals. The chance of having 100% pure tungsten is highly unlikely. But in reallity, for the very small pieces we are talking about it isn't going to matter. The 1 or 2% of weight reduction on a piece 9/32" by 1" by 1/16" is negligible.

[Phil Hackett]

Everyone worried about the density of the particular tungsten are going *way* too far in concern for something that makes very little difference. In the very small volume you'd be inserting in a guide flag a few milligrams isn't going to make a difference in the way the guide, or more importantly, the car works.

 

Tungsten carbide is bound with cobalt. Tungsten itself (pure tungsten) is a sintered metal with no binders. There is tungsten copper used in the EDM world. Both cobalt and copper are not light metals. I have never heard of tungsten aluminum or tungsten beryllium or tungsten lithium and even then the binders are typically 8-15%...

 

EDIT: Dave Crevie posted the message above while I was composing this post.

[Phil Smith]

And to take it one step further, one has to wonder whether a tungsten weighted flag has any added benefit to begin with.

[Jay Guard]

Dave P. FYI...

As usual Phil Hackett is correct, but in addition there is a form of single crystal pure Tungsten that is available for special applications that is not sintered.  Yes it is very expensive, but in aerospace engineering (which incidentally is my background) that isn't a significant consideration.

Attached is the chemical composition of commercially pure Tungsten.  This is from the website of one of the largest suppliers of Tungsten in the USA. There is no problem buying pure Tungsten from them in plate or sheet form.

And from another respected technical website... 

"Fabrication is a multistep process that converts tungsten metal from the original massive state (bars or ingots) to a more useful shape (sheet, tube, wire) and, at the same time, improves its physical properties. The exact details of fabrication depend on the method used for consolidating the metal and the type of product desired. Arc- or electron-beam-melted tungsten normally is extruded or forged to increase its ductility, whereas powder-processed material, because of its finer-grained structure and smaller tendency to crack, is less likely to require this initial step."

 

Clearly all of this is all purely academic at this point, and really makes no difference at all for our slot car applications.  However I think you need to get a different supplier that knows what he is talking about and change your "stance" on this subject.

[Rob Voska]

If no one had them and all guides were plastic / graphite this conversation would not matter & guides would still be a few bucks.  But hey, lets keep arguing about stuff that acts as a barrier to getting anyone new involved.  Great discussion when only 3 guys show up at the track.................. and there is no one to race with.

[MSwiss]

Rob,

A few bucks ?

 

What are you talking about?

 

Unweighted Red Fox guides are $5.50 each, unthreaded.

 

Where's your outrage about $23.95 EDM pinions, or $800-$1,000 controllers?

[Phil Hackett]

Pandora's box was opened long ago, everything changed never to go back.

[Rob Voska]

Everyone has a point where they simply walk away or never get involved in the first place.  For some it's a weighted guide or a pan that's a gram lighter or so many body's to choose from or having to buy and sort through 20-50-100 "cheap motors" or a setup with XX number of magnets.  Things are changing so fast I rarely buy more than one as things are obsoleted so fast I don't want to be caught with out of date equipment (I have my share).  Lack of stability at least in the beginner classes makes it hard to even advise anyone what to purchase if they choose to begin.  It's not an investment in equipment, chassis & motors are more like braid & lane dots, simply consumables.  We are not running Turboflex's anymore but is the racing any better or is there more people to race with? 

 

I hear from a lot of racers they "have to much stuff".  They don't even want it to begin with.  I overheard a really good racers a few weeks back say "these motors are so frustrating" as he sat out that nights racing........  When the "F" word is used in slot cars it should be Fun not Frustrating. 

 

I've built 2 of my controllers & the most I have spent on one is $500.  I built my box & a fair amount of my equipment from blocks to jigs. 

 

I received the following in an email exchange a few years ago.  I don't think it can be said any better than this.

 

"Just what we need, more chassis. Lol. Someday, perhaps when slot racing disappears all together in the US, they will realize that it's not the equipment lacking, it's the lack of racers willing to spend money on more and more equipment. Chassis of the week racing will last about 6 months. See where it got wing racing and euro racing here in the US. Waste of money if you keep racing on Dyno tracks with $10 motors." 

 

"As the core racers in this country deplete and age over time, there will not be anyone to maintain control. It’s actually closer than you think. In 5-10 years I believe most of those who travel or support any type of traveling racing series will be done, out, or dead. With no youth to take over, and the current band of racers staring at boxes full of outdated or restricted equipment I’m afraid the writing is on the wall. Greed will be the death of slot racing in one form or the other.

 

Now what does that have to do with weighted guides or aluminum pans or lightweight lead wire or a body of the week?  Maybe we all need to ask ourselves will it make the RACING any better?  Will it keep new people from getting involved?  Instead of trying to buy an advantage. 

[MSwiss]

Pretty good post, Rob.

 

As for the comment, "Waste of money if you keep racing on Dyno tracks with $10 motors", I'll just add, back in 1982, it was no different racing $25 ($67 in today's $$$'s), US made, I15 motors, on bumpy tracks.

 

90%, or more, weren't suitable to race for a podium.

 

Simple solution to the motor situation, everyone race Semi-pro open cars.

 

You won't need more than a few motors.

 

If the racers can deal with a lot of attrition, yelling at marshals, and watching guys slamming their boxes shut, and storming out with a bent car, it would solve the "I don't have a fast enough motor" issue.

[Rotorranch]

It's called RACING!!!

 

EVERYONE is looking for an advantage. That's what racing is all about! Make the most of what the rules allow.

 

Rotor

[MSwiss]

Exactly, Jeff.

 

One always has the option to take up a less competitive endeavor, like model trains.

 

If you decide you want to get involved with something that has "racing" in it's moniker, be prepared to have the other guy try to beat you.

 

Back to restricted motors, again, it was no different, 35-40 years ago.

 

It didn't matter that they were racer built motors.

 

The guy willing to spend the most $$$ usually had the most HP.

 

The only difference was you had to complain about it at the raceway.

 

No Internet to air your grievances. LOL

[Rob Voska]

It's called RACING!!!

 

EVERYONE is looking for an advantage. That's what racing is all about! Make the most of what the rules allow.

 

Rotor

What stable national rules?  No leadership, no stability leads to this endless stream of products for racers to buy until they don't.........

An advantage is will prepared equipment and driving well.  An "advantage" that is mass marketed is simply another gimmick that makes you faster and forces the other guy to buy........ until he don't buy it and simply walks away.

Look around all the packed raceways for the answer to that.  Is that fun or frustrating?

[Pappy]

We cured the motor problem in 1/32nd scale hardbody racing. We use plastic chassis, with hard bodies, on flat tracks, with no additional airfoils, on silicone tires that are easy to overpower so you can use any motor you want. Anything over 25,000 rpm will overpower the car, most guys don't even use that hot of a motor.

 

Maybe 1/24 scale racers should look at ways to slow the chassis down so it's easy to overpower. No high downforce bodies, no additional airfoils, flat tracks, rubber or silicone tires. I know I'm barking up the wrong tree but I'm sure having fun slot racing.

[MSwiss]

Rob,

I, and the other 4 members of the IRRA BOD agree about the importance of stability.

 

That's why we have weight minimums.

 

And a minimum body thickness.

 

And speaking of guides, I'm the one who suggested, and came up with the max dimension specs, in 2007, or 2008, when Red Fox came up with a guide with a slightly longer and thicker blade, so guides wouldn't continue getting longer and longer.

[Jay Guard]

And speaking of guides, I'm the one who suggested, and came up with the max dimension specs, in 2007, or 2008, when Red Fox came up with a guide with a slightly longer and thicker blade, so guides wouldn't continue getting longer and longer.

I think you missed the specification concerning the weight of the guide!

[Upfront slot cars]

Rob, do you need us pool together a few extra bucks to get you one of these new guides so you can be competitive? Im pretty sure they hit the black market sometime in 2017 and have not been obsoleted yet . Anyway, your post sound like your a really stand up guy who supports the sport and hates to see it fall do to common sense tweaks on parts to make a car faster . At 2nd thought, you strike me as one of the many guys that even if they had all the best parts and hot new trick stuff still would complain. The fact is you could for a few dollars take the guides you already have and make them better. One more....... This tip is free so read closely...... you dont need a lot of money or high dollar equipment to build any competitive slot car at any level in slot racing, you need common sense and initiative.

[Rob Voska]

It's not about me being competitive, I have very limited talent. 

It's about the body that is wider than the rules and is a tick faster so either get it or get out.

It's about the guide that weighs more and might be a tick faster so either get it or get out.

It's about the pan that is a gram lighter so either get it or get out. 

All these things add up to make it harder to get anyone started. 

All these things add up to make the car a little more fragile. 

All these things add up literally to make it cost more for the beginner. 

All these things add up to make it easier for someone to say NO instead of YES.

I see more people getting out than getting in.

But please send as much money as you like. 

[MSwiss]

I think you missed the specification concerning the weight of the guide!

Yes, in 2007, I didn't know I would come up with the idea in 2018. lol
 

Rob, do you need us pool together a few extra bucks to get you one of these new guides so you can be competitive? Im pretty sure they hit the black market sometime in 2017 and have not been obsoleted yet . Anyway, your post sound like your a really stand up guy who supports the sport

Andrew,
1-Rob bought  some from me before he went to the last ISRA Worlds, in the UK.
 
2-April 20, 2018 is the date. If someone else thought of it before me, they kept it a secret. I came up with the concept when I thought about switching the way I was pinning Red Fox guides, drilling, starting from the bottom of the blade , instead of through the post, first.

I figured while I was at it, I would drill additional holes to use up a ton of free .047" brass rod, I got from K & S.

I then changed my mind and went with brass strip.
 
3-Rob is a real good guy.

[MSwiss]

3-Rob is a real good guy.

I love quoting myself. LOL

 

It's not about me being competitive, I have very limited talent. 

It's about the body that is wider than the rules and is a tick faster so either get it or get out.

It's about the guide that weighs more and might be a tick faster so either get it or get out.

It's about the pan that is a gram lighter so either get it or get out. 

All these things add up to make it harder to get anyone started. 

All these things add up to make the car a little more fragile. 

All these things add up literally to make it cost more for the beginner. 

All these things add up to make it easier for someone to say NO instead of YES.

I see more people getting out than getting in.

But please send as much money as you like. 

Rob,

1-No one is stopping a raceway from requiring a spec car to be raced.

 

2-Were racers allowed to use .005" bodies when GL ISRA was running in this area?