53 replies to this topic

[Phil Smith]

Interesting. I hadn't considered the consistency aspect.

 

Jay, it's good to be positive and supportive. And many posters in this thread have been. But has anyone actually bought one? They've been for sale since December.

 

I do offer this whole setup for sale or just the switch if that works for you. Maxx motors are $40 Castle motors are $50 . The switch mailed is $85 .

 

http://slotblog.net/...acing/?p=768852

 

I think what Tom has done is very cool. However I think it's way too expensive to ever catch on. It will be impossible to get a class started for them at that price. Especially since there's much cheaper options that work much better.

[Rob King]

I was thinking about this. The majority of racing rc cars use sensored motors so they don't roll backwards, more precise throttle, etc.  Sensorless winds up more in monster trucks and "fun" type cars.  

 

There are a lot of people who have converted standard brushed motor dynos over to brushless by putting a brushless speed control in line between the dyno and a brushless motor.  This works by using a servo controller to put the speed controller at WOT.   Set up like this, the dyno can control the motor as it normally would.  

 

Essentially, you would need an esc that was pinned wide open.  I realize that is more or less what has been demonstrated here, but sensored would probably be better for roadcourse cars.  That being said, I imagine the only situation where it might really be worth all the trouble would be  rental cars so the motor would really be maintenance free.

[Bags]

Jay brought up a good point. Consistently is a very important part, think of this. A drone has 4 brushless motors on it. It also has a program to keep it “ flying “ too. I talked to a friend that races and also does aerial surveys with 4 motor drones. I asked him about the consistency of the brushless motors and he told me that they may vary by 5 RPM. If they weren’t that close the drone would not fly he said. Nobody wants their expensive drone to fall outta the sky and crash. 

 

The backing up is not noticeable at all in a slot car. Once power is applied the car will go forward without a pulse backward.

[Rob King]

The motor can lose position when it loses power or stops.  In a crash or when someone tries to put a car back on, it could go backwards.  This would happen in the early days of B/L sensorless rc car motors, even with no reverse on the speed control.

 

As far as consistency, it's more or less like any other electric motor.  The components- stator, rotor, etc., can all be hand selected for max performance, if that is allowed to happen.  

[Guillermo Suar]

Some years ago I built a lot of Gauss meters for a guy that was selling them for measuring the strength of the magnetic field on R/C brushless motors' rotors. They were looking for the magic bullet same as we do. I built over 150 of these meters in two different versions.

 

[SpeedyNH]

yo, Bags, 

nice work! how about some pictures of your creation? 

thanks 

speed

[NSwanberg]

From what I can determine these brushless DC mini motors just work off of a DC power supply and the motor itself is actually a three phase AC synchronous motor with a permanent magnet external rotor. The windings provide a rotating three phase magnetic field that locks the rotor in at an rpm based on the frequency of the voltage applied. The Electronic Speed Control creates the three phase voltage and varies the frequency by sensing the input voltage from the track as varied by the the controller you manipulate with your hand. The frequency applied determines the rpm of the motor. Outside the door of my control room and running is a 600 HP synchronous motor driving a compound horizontal opposed piston air compressor rotating at 300 rpm with three phase 60Hz current at 460 volts.

 

The appeal of these mini motors for slot car racing to me is that they should provide nearly equal rpm and power to all the participants. The variations in manufacture should not compromise the maximum rpm that would be set by the ESC. This should make your race craft, set up and tuning ability more important than finding the one off motor that makes you faster. The motors should last nearly indefinitely as there are no brushes and commutators to wear.

[Greg Erskine]

How do you enforce what firmware is loaded on the ESC?

[NSwanberg]

When you figure it out, let me know.

[bbr]

ROM?

[Bags]

How do you enforce what firmware is loaded on the ESC?

The Talon program is loaded with the Castle link adapter off a pc. Yes the settings can be changed to improve how the car preforms but it’s not going to make that great of a difference from what we have tested. The motor is what makes the big difference in how fast or slow the car will go. Gearing has some effects too.

 

All it would take is to check the settings in the esc before racing and then after to make sure nothing was changed. The motors are easily checked too with a simple multimeter. If another higher kv motor was used it would stick out like a sore thumb. 
 

I don’t know how the other brushless motor controllers are programmed but I think it’s not as easy as the Talons plug and play. I’m sure if someone wants to get into it and mess around they will. It would be up to the manufacturer to either let changes be made to it or seal it up to deny access.

[MSwiss]

From what I can determine these brushless DC mini motors just work off of a DC power supply and the motor itself is actually a three phase AC synchronous motor with a permanent magnet external rotor. The windings provide a rotating three phase magnetic field that locks the rotor in at an rpm based on the frequency of the voltage applied. The Electronic Speed Control creates the three phase voltage and varies the frequency by sensing the input voltage from the track as varied by the the controller you manipulate with your hand. The frequency applied determines the rpm of the motor. Outside the door of my control room and running is a 600 HP synchronous motor driving a compound horizontal opposed piston air compressor rotating at 300 rpm with three phase 60Hz current at 460 volts.

 

The appeal of these mini motors for slot car racing to me is that they should provide nearly equal rpm and power to all the participants. The variations in manufacture should not compromise the maximum rpm that would be set by the ESC. This should make your race craft, set up and tuning ability more important than finding the one off motor that makes you faster. The motors should last nearly indefinitely as there are no brushes and commutators to wear.

Nelson,

When Tony P was still among us, he commented the performance of brushless motors, of the same spec, still vary from motor.

 

If interested in brushless motors, you should join the brushless FB page, started by Richard Mack.

 

Lots of brushless talk, video's of cars going around.

 

Richard's focus, is having an alternative to expensive unlimited Eurosport, to race on flat tracks, where motor specs, and parity isn't an issue.

 

On that page, people with brushless RC car and drone experience have expressed skepticism about even spec racing with them.

 

They would definitely have to be sealed, possibly in some sort of handout scenario.

 

One of those long time RC car racers mentioned he is getting back into slot cars, to get away from racing brushless motors, and his assessment of the rampant cheating.

[jimht]

Mike, your negative bias is quite obvious, especially when you use Nelson's post to promote your vague unfounded assertions.

 

Take a look at how ROAR has addressed the introduction and development of brushless motors: https://www.roarracing.com/rules.php

 

Note that they've nailed it down quite well and have made few adjustments or additions to the rules lately.

 

A simple Google search for "cheating in RC car racing" will show that it pretty much dropped off the radar 9-10 years ago when brushless motors were introduced.

 

Brushless motors dominate RC car racing, motor cheating is almost nonexistent and prices to compete at all levels have dropped because the brushless motors are so reliable and consistent.

 

Brushed motors are currently provided only in the RTR cars and conversion to brushless is an automatic no brainer for those who want to compete in organized racing.

 

Mass produced brushless motors will provide tremendous performance and longevity (Gp12 speed and faster) for a pittance compared to handmade slot car motors.

 

Does that bother you?

[Bags]

They have 4 motors on them, if they fell out of the sky how many would they sell?

Why cheat when it’s this good to start with?

 

The rotor in Inrunner brushless motors can be changed to make them higher kv a lot easier than an Outrunner motor

if that is what is being referred to as cheating. The inrunners that we used in the beginning of tests turned out to be too

heavy and the cg for road course was too top heavy. Maybe a suitable inrunner will be available in the future.

 

https://youtube.com/...Y&feature=share

[Phil Smith]

i think the ESC is controlling the RPM and that's why they all run the same. Maybe that can be done with slot cars as well. Or maybe not.

[MSwiss]

promote your vague unfounded assertions

Jim,
I already congratulated Richard Mack on demonstrating Eurosport, or close to Eurosport speed, with inexpensive brushless motors.

And commented multiple times how impressed I am that the brushless cars that are running these fast laps, are accomplishing it, with a bolt-in motor setup.

I suggested to Nelson to hit the brushless FB page where the information is plentiful.

My comment was limited to the apparent fantasy that brushless motors are going to lead to more even racing on tracks, where every minute amount of HP is noticed.

My "vague unfounded assertions" are currently being asserted, and have been asserted before, by people with real experience with these motors.

Nelson and yourself should read post #29 and #30 in this thread.

Those are from 2 people who unlike myself, do not market a brushed motor.

As far as your comment, "A simple Google search for "cheating in RC car racing" will show that it pretty much dropped off the radar 9-10 years ago when brushless motors were introduced."

Are you kidding?

The link you provided absolutely contradicts that.

See below.

It dropped off the radar 9-10 years ago, but ROAR found it necessary to issue a new statement ,(which I read as also an apology) in 2019?

If it was as simple as running a 70K motor and setting the ESC to 60K, as Nelson theorizes, why does the below statement exist, with references to a "ROAR designated inspection lab"?

And this one, from the first paragraph?

"It is clear from member input that developments in the area of spec wind electric motors have left members uncertain that ROAR is accomplishing the goal of providing that level playing field."

You accuse me of making "vague unfounded assertions", but then you post a link that proves my assertions, that I was only conveying from other parties, with experience in brushless, were 100%, spot on.

[Bags]

kinda big for a slot car……rebuilding or cheating? Depends where it’s used?

 

https://youtube.com/...4&feature=share
 

[jimht]

Quit beating a dead horse Mike. Just because a rules making body continues to do what it can to enforce the rules does not mean those rules are not being generally adhered to.

 

Also, just as in slot cars, the vast majority of the cars and motors sold never make it into some sort of sanctioned, big deal race...but they do make for happy customers if they give good bang for the buck.

 

My information about what is going on in RC car racing comes from those in the business, not from Facebook or posts on a Forum, like #29 & #30, which both deal with past history, not current technology or the complainer (one!) who you keep referring to from the other Forum.

 

The experience with brushless motors in RC car racing has been very positive, with the exception of the unfortunate demise of the custom motor builders and tweakers that saw their business disappear, ya know what I mean?   

[MSwiss]

One more time,Jim.

Cars zooming around at G12 or faster speeds, and not needing maintenance, is going to be great.

If it inspires people to spend more time at the raceway, that's wonderful.

My post was specific to Nelson, a friend, on his theory brushless will lead to all 8 cars in a race, getting from the Lead-on to the Deadman, in identical times.

People with RC experience have been real clear, it won't.

Three last comments and you can get in the last word.

Brushless took over in RC because it is more efficient and pretty much maintenance free, and the cars already had ESC's on board.

Not because it was going to provide absolute equal HP and eliminate cheating.

And I've never heard of anyone issuing an apology, and coming up with a new policy for an issue that wasn't a problem.

[jimht]

"Brushless took over in RC because it is more efficient and pretty much maintenance free, and the cars already had ESC's on board.

Not because it was going to provide absolute equal HP and eliminate cheating.

And I've never heard of anyone issuing an apology, and coming up with a new policy for an issue that wasn't a problem."

 

Thanks for coming around to my point of view. LOL

[Tim Neja]

Please don't get lost on the idea that brushless motor's are more consistent than brushed motors. I've raced 1/12 and 1/10 scale RC cars for 15 years.   I'd say their about the same.  What they are is pretty much maintenance free with no brush's to wear.  It will be a completely different style of power source--but they are not going to replace the slot racing brush'd motors--but create an entirely new class of slot car.  Go for if it's fun for you!!

[jimht]

Brushless motors in RC have proven to provide excellent reliable over-performance at a reasonable cost...consistency is irrelevant if one has more power than is needed.

 

Whether or not there is more consistency with them than there is with $200 C-can or $400 cobalt motors (or mass produced FK motors that they probably won't replace), they do seem to present the option of going too fast without having multiple expensive additional potential grenades on hand as a backup.

 

If the path we follow is similar to what's happened in RC, the market will drive the change and the manufacturers will sink or swim.

 

The most "concern" I see in this has to do with "It's a change, what if it affects me negatively in some way?".

 

Hang on for the ride...be optimistic instead of pessimistic, the sky is not falling.

[boxerdog]

I'm old enough to remember sourcing motors from HO trains, surplus stores, boats, anywhere to try to find something better than the next guy. Then we evolved to cheap Japanese motors, then to purpose-built motors, then back to cheap Chinese motors...who cares how they operate? Or if they come out of helicopters? Or toothbrushes? The ESC is only replicating all or some of those functions you have built into that $500+ controller with all of its chokes, switches and knobs. I'm with Tim, if it looks like fun, try it out. If not, go buy a handful of the latest FKs. It's not life-threatening in any case. 

[Phil Smith]

This brushless thing is either over hyped or over criticized. Somewhere in between would be more reasonable.

[bbr]

Very democratic of u Phil, u should run for governor