385 replies to this topic

[Eddie Fleming]

IMO

The race director must be in charge of ruining the race. The race director must also be actively involved in running the race.

If people don't like the way races are run find a new race director or change the mindset of the current one. After the race.

 

 there are way to many track calls at ASCR and I think at most raceways. 

To state the obvious track calls kill the flow of the race and remove the reward from consistent driving and avoiding trouble.

On the other hand none of us are as good at corner working as we once were so there will be track calls we don't like. Track calls should be kept to a minimum. Entry level races should be called more leniently than more serious races. 

 

Cars off in unreachable locations (under the bridge or track) must be track calls by the corner worker, or the race director. Only cars off out of site of or unseen by corner workers should be called track calls by drivers. Cars off on the floor are not always track calls. Multiple cars off in a corner is not a track call unless it is beyond the capabilities of the corner worker at that location, but the call should be consistent. 

 

The call of the race and track calls should be as consistent as possible!

[Racer36]

Largely agree with Eddie.

the one distinction that should be made is that drivers cannot call track, they can only call rider in the event that happens. Track calls are for marshalls and the race director to decide in my view.

akso, a race director must be able to distinguish between a weekly club style race and a series race. They require 2 different mindsets.

[Eddie Fleming]

Largely agree with Eddie.

the one distinction that should be made is that drivers cannot call track, they can only call rider in the event that happens. Track calls are for marshalls and the race director to decide in my view.

akso, a race director must be able to distinguish between a weekly club style race and a series race. They require 2 different mindsets.

I agree with Dennis about drivers not calling track except in situations where you are running without enough marshals and parts of the track are not covered.  

[Richie]

To add on what Fast Eddie said, reading his post made me think that the race director would be well served by setting the rules in driver's meeting before an event starts to lay out who makes the track calls, what will and will not require a track call. We all know that exceptions because you can't go over every scenario...I did like the distinction above a out didn't types of racers, different track call scenarios. Good question, should get lots of discussion! Thanks for everything you do at the track

[Clyde Romero]

There is definitely a distinction between local and series races with regards to track calls.

Why this is I don't know.

But it is happening at tracks around the country for sure.

I wish some of my European friends would chime in here I would love to hear what they have to say on this topic, and how they handle it.

Everything I have witnessed at larger events lead me to believe that TRACK CALLS are far and few between.

I like the idea of a race director stating the requirement for a track call.

Those of us who have raced cars and motorcycles know track rules which are driven by flags of corner marshals.

It's my belief that we conduct ourselves differently when we are at our home track vs when we are at an event away from home.

True or not True?

As for myself for myself when I am race director, I leave the power on unless I hear a track call from a marshal, or I see the car is in a spot that is not reachable by a marshal, (the bowl on king, car off in front of the drivers stand)

This by all means this is not all encompassing, track malfunctions will generate a track call as well.

Paying attention to the race is paramount as a race director, not being on your cell phone or speaking to anyone by your position.

Anyway, this subject has generated a lot of interest, looking forward to more feedback.

Until then

 

Clyde  

[Racer36]

Most importantly, a race director should never leave his post during a race to get a cookie.

inside joke….

[Dan Ebert]

Dennis,   Unless they are Chocolate Chip from Jamestown NY.   They would be one of a kind special cookies that require special attention.

[Clyde Romero]

so this is a text message I got from a European friend of mine on this subject of track calls

 

 

Not too well .

Pretty much used as a tool to slow me down @ R81 .

Two race directors switch the power off when any one comes out ,

no matter whether there is a Marshall in that corner or not .

As I make the least mistakes I am penalised. They are trying to even things up for their mates .

Price I pay for being a serial Winner .

At National level . Much better . There are designated track call areas 

marked on the track .

Marshall’s or driver can call track . However the driver can be penalised 

if it is not a legitimate reason .

Normally 1st infraction,warning . 2nd offence 5 lap penalty , 3rd offence 

disqualification from that racing class .

ISRA racing , conduct warnings & lap penalties & disqualification.

[Danny Zona]

I'm not one to really call track.

Something that I never see mentioned is a car being picked up that didn't deslot and only stopped because of a crash blocking the lane. Then it's usually the last car put back on.

That's when I really want to call TRACK!

I never do but I do yell help.

[Jay Guard]

There are always going to be a lot of gray areas concerning track calls.  I think it is a great idea to set the ground rules before the race but in the heat of battle it's not always easy for the race director, much less the racers to go by those rules.  My idea is on the straight, under the bridge, and clearly out-of-bounds (like under the track but not just at the marshals feet) are realistic track calls and of course a rider.  Then at the discretion of the race director and/or turn marshall if there is a "large" pile up in a turn.  By large I don't mean two cars, more like three or four.  Those seem like pretty simple rules and they will be tough enough for everyone to follow during a race.  Finally a race director always has the ability to turn off the power but as far as I'm concerned the fewer track calls the better.

[blkdout76]

When I first started racing in an actual series it was in the mid 90's when I was stationed in San Diego and I was racing what then was SoCal USRA Div II. I remember a pic that someone took and had blown up of a then very young Johnathan Forsyth in the Deadman of a king track with 8 cars off in front of him, it would be brought to every race and placed on an easel and in bold letters read "THIS IS NOT A TRACK CALL" so it's very frustrating for me to race where the turn marshal or driver will call TRACK because there's more then 2 cars off in the corner, sorry but its not....take your time, don't get frustrated and get the cars as quickly as you can, if the one of those drivers has something to say, ask em, "if you think you can walk over and do it faster and then get back to your controller and not lose anymore time you're more then welcome" if not STFU and either A. Don't come off or B don't drive into desloted cars.

[Dominator]

Most rule organizations have a rule in place for what is a track call and when a track call should be made.  In most cases a rider is track call as well as a unmarshalable car.  Unmarshallable such as in the infield of the track or its below a surface that can not be accessed quickly and safely.

 

Now I do agree if there is a car off on the racing surface that is able to be reached by a marshal then there should not be a track call.  On the other side of this look at the average age of the racers and how well they can move safely.  The tracks are low and even kneeling down is tough for a lot of racers.  At 44 even my knees hurt after a couple heats marshaling the deadman lol. 

 

Look at it this way.  If someone comes out on the short chute of a king and is in a gutter lane the marshal needs to decide if they can safely marshal the car or if calling track is the right course of action.  While I personally believe this should not be a track call it does depend on the capabilities of the marshal.  So I think we are at a point in the hobby where "doing the right thing" for track calls sometimes has to be considered.  While it's not fair for the guy who falls off to get rewarded with a track call it's also not fair for the guy who is running hard and staying on to get penalized either.

[Clyde Romero]

one of the big issues is marshal capabilities in active corners, I personally try to assign marshals that are not as nimble in corners that tend not to be as active.

What's the feeling about those marshals who try to do this important task sitting down?

I realize that this is a hot button subject now, but I feel we are as a group expressing our feelings as what we see out there racing.

[Clyde Romero]

When I first started racing in an actual series it was in the mid 90's when I was stationed in San Diego and I was racing what then was SoCal USRA Div II. I remember a pic that someone took and had blown up of a then very young Johnathan Forsyth in the Deadman of a king track with 8 cars off in front of him, it would be brought to every race and placed on an easel and in bold letters read "THIS IS NOT A TRACK CALL" so it's very frustrating for me to race where the turn marshal or driver will call TRACK because there's more then 2 cars off in the corner, sorry but its not....take your time, don't get frustrated and get the cars as quickly as you can, if the one of those drivers has something to say, ask em, "if you think you can walk over and do it faster and then get back to your controller and not lose anymore time you're more then welcome" if not STFU and either A. Don't come off or B don't drive into desloted cars.

I am with you here whole heartly, 8 cars off, take your time, and what you said if a driver says something is spot on.  

[Tim Neja]

one of the big issues is marshal capabilities in active corners, I personally try to assign marshals that are not as nimble in corners that tend not to be as active.

What's the feeling about those marshals who try to do this important task sitting down?

I realize that this is a hot button subject now, but I feel we are as a group expressing our feelings as what we see out there racing.

As long as ALL racers are marshalled the same way in any corner--it's equal for them all.  So no problem with marshall's that are not as nimble. If you have to rely on marshall's for your racing--you're not going to place high up on the podium anyway.  Don't come off?

[Clyde Romero]

There are always going to be a lot of gray areas concerning track calls.  I think it is a great idea to set the ground rules before the race but in the heat of battle it's not always easy for the race director, much less the racers to go by those rules.  My idea is on the straight, under the bridge, and clearly out-of-bounds (like under the track but not just at the marshals feet) are realistic track calls and of course a rider.  Then at the discretion of the race director and/or turn marshall if there is a "large" pile up in a turn.  By large I don't mean two cars, more like three or four.  Those seem like pretty simple rules and they will be tough enough for everyone to follow during a race.  Finally a race director always has the ability to turn off the power but as far as I'm concerned the fewer track calls the better.

Jay in my opinion you nailed it, once the race starts it's as if everyone forgets what was said earlier. 

I don't agree with your 4 or more off though, but that's just me. 

I almost wish there was an AI solution to this issue we all have experienced.

[NSwanberg]

snolde, on 04 Feb 2022 - 7:02 PM, said:

Front wheels touching the track also reduces drag on the car and reduces tipping out in the corner.

2 degree up tilt on the guide moves the pivot point of the guide closer to the guide post as well.

Scott I am not so sure I agree with your view on drag

anything that is touching a moving surface is drag 

 

From what I see of the RETRO cars that are being posted many of us "builders" are gaming the front end clearance to create the flexi effect. You would  think all that tire scum on the wings of a flexi car would be a drag but....see Dave DeCoster's cars.

 

After I win the lottery and start G.R.R.O. (Galactic Retro Racing Organization) clearance will be .050 front to back and you will have to make your front wheels work.

 

Weekly racing definitely needs a softer race director's touch. We are all hoping to get more people involved in our hobby/sport, however, it is really easy for a new racer to feel like they have been screwed over in a race either with a minor mechanical problem or a marshalling situation. I like the if you can fix it at the track you get a minute rule. If you have to leave the track to go to your pit box we race on.

[Bucky]

In the past I wasnt a fan of marshals calling track for multiple cars coming out in a turn, but the way marshals handle this situation has changed over time.

Historically marshals put the car that caused the wreck on last, but that rule isnt closely followed anymore. It stinks when a car comes over from several lanes away and hits you on its way to causing a pile up. For whatever reason the offending party gets put on first and the marshal fumbles around using one hand to marshal the remaining cars. Id rather a track call occur than myself or someone else lose multiple laps for a nearly unavoidable crash. It also helps avoid having drivers yell at the marshal.

[Clyde Romero]

As long as ALL racers are marshalled the same way in any corner--it's equal for them all.  So no problem with marshall's that are not as nimble. If you have to rely on marshall's for your racing--you're not going to place high up on the podium anyway.  Don't come off?

Tim in a perfect world yes, but let's be realistic here, are all you laps consistent when racing?

[Clyde Romero]

 

snolde, on 04 Feb 2022 - 7:02 PM, said:

Scott I am not so sure I agree with your view on drag

anything that is touching a moving surface is drag 

 

From what I see of the RETRO cars that are being posted many of us "builders" are gaming the front end clearance to create the flexi effect. You would  think all that tire scum on the wings of a flexi car would be a drag but....see Dave DeCoster's cars.

 

After I win the lottery and start G.R.R.O. (Galactic Retro Racing Organization) clearance will be .050 front to back and you will have to make your front wheels work.

 

Weekly racing definitely needs a softer race director's touch. We are all hoping to get more people involved in our hobby/sport, however, it is really easy for a new racer to feel like they have been screwed over in a race either with a minor mechanical problem or a marshalling situation. I like the if you can fix it at the track you get a minute rule. If you have to leave the track to go to your pit box we race on.

 

I agree with you, drag is drag!

[Eddie Fleming]

After I win the lottery and start G.R.R.O. (Galactic Retro Racing Organization) clearance will be .050 front to back and you will have to make your front wheels work.

I like the .050 front to back idea. That's the way all classes were back in the day retro is fashioned after.

 

We run .050 F/B on stock cars now and with the big top heavy bodies. Yea we add some lead to them but they work and are fast.

[Eddie Fleming]

Yes drag is drag but would you rather push a concrete block around with two wheels on one end or with four wheels on the corners?

[jimht]

Racing is either realistic or it isn't.

 

Making allowances for newbies is a given, but the gloves should come off when those who are experienced expect special treatment for their errors.

 

There can be all kinds of reasons for cutting off the power but it should never be done because someone is "inconvenienced". 

[DavidR]

A Race director should run a race in the most fairest way possible. That cant be done if the RDs ability to run a fair race is circumvented by management by setting a hard and fast rule pre race like . Do Not Turn Off Track Unless a car Hits The Floor, there are to many variables, for this to work fairly, this could be a viable option if everything was the same for every racer but when you run more than one main and turn Marshalls change then you have different people and they Marshall differently. This can result in cars not getting back on as fast as a car in the previous main in the same situation which cause ill will towards the RD even though he was only obeying orders given him. A RD should run the race in a way that fairness to all is upheld. If certain rules are going to be in place make sure everyone racing is aware and if they are not good with it then they can choose to race or not.

[snolde]

The IRRA rule on Turn Marshals and Track Calls from the 2021 rule set:

 

Marshaling

• All entrants are expected to marshal and/or to

assist the Race Director if unable to marshal due

to physical or medical reasons.

• Any driver failing or refusing to marshal as

directed in a class in which he is competing will

receive a five-lap penalty in that class.

 

Track Calls

• Track calls will permitted only under the

following conditions:

– an umarshalable car in the straight in front of

the drivers, or on an inaccessible part of the

racing surface.

– an umarshalable car under a bridge or on the

floor in an inaccessible location. A car on the

floor is NOT automatically a track call.

– a car landing in another racer’s lane, i.e. a

“rider.”

Note: The situation where a turn marshal

has more than one car to re-slot is NOT a

track call.

• When a track call is made, the Race Director

may, at his discretion, ask the driver calling

“track” his reason for doing so. If the Race

Director determines the track call to have been

unwarranted and/or in violation of the rules, the

driver’s car will be moved to a position

immediately past the lap counter’s dead strip

before racing is resumed.

 

Black Flag

• Any car suffering damage that makes it a hazard

to other drivers, due to constant de-slotting, or

that is damaged in a manner making it illegal

under IRRA® rules (such as a loss of part of the

body, interior, and wheels, or dragging on the

track surface) will be black-flagged.

• A car that is black-flagged must be immediately

removed from the track until proper repairs are

made. Failure to comply with a black flag will

result in the driver’s.

 

Conduct

• The Race Director, at his sole discretion, will

issue a warning to a driver exhibiting unsportsmanlike

conduct. A second offense will cause

the driver to suffer a ten-lap penalty. A third

offense will result in the driver’s disqualification

from the race.

 

Sounds OK to me.