112 replies to this topic

[John Miller]

People are matching magnets, setting the air gaps, rebuilding the brush structure, running weird brush arrangements ,cutting coms small, and custom balancing and so on and sending the motors to be sealed. This is not in the spirit of what the whole Retro and Proslot thing was supposed to be about.

I would like to ask the Board of Directors why is this being allowed to happen. Essentially, people are rebuilding their own motors now. So, what purpose does the seal provide?

[S.O. Watt]

The seal provides verification that the components of the motor were blessed by the rebuilder as conforming to the engineering specifications. Maybe at the high end or low end of tolerances, but still within.

Same thing that I see day in and day out in aerospace.

[Pablo]

My opinion is, same as I have always said,
:
I don't mind that Hershman refurb his own motors. What REALLY grinds my gears is, he takes in motors that have had the seals removed, and refurbs them. Yes, I know he claims they are all within specs, but as soon as that seal is broken by anyone OTHER THAN the authorized refurb center, it is obvious some tinkering has occurred.

And I know some will say the stickers sometimes wear off or fall off, and to that I say the refurb guy makes a judgement call in a situation where a seal is damaged. But for him to refurb a motor that has no seal, that should never happen, EVER !!

Same thing I said last time we talked about this.

I don't like handout motors, but if they do that, I'm still onboard. Hell, I'll race drunken donkeys, as long as the rules are clear, concise, and enforced.

[John Miller]

True, but the top three could be broken down at the end of the race and checked to see if they are within spec.

So, why have the seals at all?

[S.O. Watt]

One donkey may have a higher metabolism rate than another. How would a seal affect that?

[Matt Bruce]

It shouldn't be allowed John but how do you police it? I don't care if you hand me a motor, let me run my motor, or give me somebody elses motor, I go into every heat, every semi, and every main knowing if I do my job I can win no matter who is lined up with me. Anyone who knows me or races against me knows that goin in cause that's what Im thinking about them. All I want is your best, cause that's what I'm giving. At the end I shake your hand. Ron is no different and expects no less, without that you are beaten before you start. Win lose or draw I wanna race the best at their best. When you change the rules to allow that from happening is when you will see retro decline. Be careful what you wish for. Don't hit the racer in the pocket to fix obvious perception.

[race301]

Why fix something thats working just for a few.
That hand out stuff just takes extra time.

[Fast Freddie]

Since I initially started this thread I thought I'd reiderate what I said earlier. I was the one who for so many years pissed and moaned about Ron racing his own rebuilt motors however, this was not the case in the R4/5. The GTC PD race was all Ron and his skill and he did it with a OTW motor. This is the same motor he used to start off the first Can Am race and when it got hurt he swapped in one of his motors, but it was evident to me that he intended to run the initial motor. More than likely to prove to everyone that an OTW motor could do the job even with Ron at the helm. It was fast and would have won had it not been hurt. Now just a few thoughts on coments made in this thread.

To Howie- I feel your pain and anger and have for years, but keep in mind there is no limitations on how many motors one can buy. I still don't believe Ron should race his own motors unless the rules are relaxed to allow everyone the opportunity to rebuild their own motors. I once asked for a rule allowing the motor refurbishers to race their own motors and was told to race elsewhere. I also asked the BOD if I could blueprint my motor before I sent it in for refurbishing, the answer was "NO". That question is still on the BOD question and answers thread.

I actually would be against handout motors on raceday. The cost for one reason but mainly because most of the racers have purchased motors in search of the top 5% and it would negate their investment and time in their race program.

I have always advocated for letting the racers rebuild their own motors if they choose and this idea has always been poo pooed. Why? It is less expensive for the racer who is really into the hobby because he usually has all the equiptment necessary to do the job. It doesn't preclude any racer from sending his motor off to have it refurbished. The best part is it removes any preception that Ron is doing something untoward. There is also that rule that if a racer is found cheating that he could be banned forever from retro racing. A harsh punishment but a great throttling device.

John Miller- That blueprinting motor stuff has been going on for years. I found out about it by accident when I overheard some retro guys talking. I asked several other guys into retro about blueprinting my motor befor I sent it off for refurbishing and was told it was OK to do. That's what promped me to ask the BOD and I was told "NO" I had to send the motor in with the seal intacted. It became apparent to me that certain racers were blueprinting their motors while certain other racers were told that it was not the accepted practice. Definitely there was and very well still may be a double standard.

Nothing we do will change the outcome of any races that Ron is in. We will all have to contend with his skill level, his tenacity, and most of all his prerace preperation. We may level the playing field but most of us will still be in the tall grass trying to claw our way out.

[Steve Deiters]

Handout PD motors as a policy concerns me because I think we have many racers across the skill/ability spectrum that it just might be the tipping point for them financially to race or not race. We need as many racers as we can at all skill levels. I think this issue has some straightforward answers and fanning the flames of discontent is not the solution to those problems.

[Pablo]

"Since I initially started this thread I thought I'd reiderate what I said earlier"

Fred, I started this thread, not you Just sayin'

[Paul Martin]

I personally don't want to see hand out PD motors. That is just an unnecessary expense. I think by now, most of us have way more motors than we need. Much of what the BoD do is not agreeable to many racers but it is what it is. I'm sure their pat answer is "there are many other classes of slot racing for you if you don't like our rules." I suppose there are a couple of additional rules the board needs to take if they want to control this issue. As to the motor blue printing issue, it is simple enough to instruct the two rebuilders that under no circumstance will a motor be refurbished if it arrives without the seal intact. If that rule is in place from day one, then all motors are gruaranteed to be as original. This won't stop the perception that Ron can do his own without anyone ever knowing. The solution to that is like Mike M. posted earlier. Ron, the racer, should only run new or Proslot rebuilt motors. I guarantee he will still have bullets because he knows how to optimize these motors' performance. The obvious has already been posted here and elsewhere but Ron and the RPM crew are very experienced at this slot racing game. Rande knows how to make cars that run free and between Ron and Rande, they know how to select the tire that will work on any given day. Those are extremely important tuning issues that most of us don't have a handle on. I know I don't. To help we more average racers, I personally would like to see a spec tire for each race. That levels the field just a little more and cuts down tremendously on cost because we don't have to buy every brand and model of tire to be sure we have the right one. We would all have to deal with whatever tire is selected. To keep it fair for the manufacturers, this could be a rotating selection. Let's face it, there aren't that all many to chose from.

Again, my take,
Paul

[Noose]

Paul, 99% of the racers at the R4/5 used Alpha Untreated Big Full Hub tires. Some used Parmas, and some tried something else like Howie who used Wonder Rubber. It was essentially a spec tire race and has been that way for years there since everyone uses just about the same tire and hub.

Same thing at the Fall Brawl. JK 8763 treated.

Same thing will be the case at this year's Retro Palooza. It will be Wonder Rubber on .490 or .500 hubs.

[Steve Deiters]

Noose, I hear what you are saying, but I'm seeing guys come with large tackle boxes of tires with any variety and combinations of hub diameters and rubber types to meet the conditions of the day. I have seen this trend evolving over the last couple of years. For the majority of the racers to keep a fresh inventory of this many combos is just plain cost prohibitive. If there is any one thing that will kill this segment of slot racing this will be it. Not sealed or unsealed motors.

Remember not only do we want to keep a level playing field for current racers, but we want to have a platform that is cost effective and inviting to new racers who are new to the hobby or people from other slot racing segments that may want to make a move.

[Noose]

They could have bags but didn't use anything else but what I noted so they brought them for nothing.

[Steve Deiters]

I'm refering to the retro genre as a whole not just raceday at the R4. In your response you went through a punch list of tires that is a confirmation of the need for a singular...meaning one...spec tire or wheel. The rubber is tough to regulate. A spec wheel would be movement in the right direction of limiting a varialble in car set up which for all practical purposes is almost infinite as it is structured now.

[Paul Martin]

Noose, considering the recent posts, it would seem a no-brainer to have a spec tire at the races you mentioned. You are forgetting that you have been to all the R4's and have the experience of knowing that Big Hub Alphas ends up being the tire of choice. How are guys coming for the first time supposed to know this information? Steve makes an excellent point. Why not just call out this tire for the R4 and save everyone some money. Need I mention that this would also help Tom Thumb Hobbies out as well. Mike wouldn't have to bring in tires from the other manufacturers along with the different hub sizes gambling on the fact that he will have call for them. How long does it take to sell off that unused stock? I think Steve's point that we do everything in our power to make it appealing to new racers and the issues mentioned here would help.

[Rick Davis]

After reading multiple topics over the last couple of days even though I'm a "part timer" I might as well voice my opinions. I don't believe Ron runs or has ever run illegal motors - he has way too much to lose , are his motors optomized - damn right , but it's done with knowledge and effort , not bending rules. I'm a lot more concerned about other racers going inside the supposedly sealed motors and having no conscience about bending or breaking rules - think the board of directors needs to pass the previously discussed proposal of having the motors screwed together at the factory immediately and make it's effective date immediate for top tier races.
As far as handout motors go I dislike them vehemently - put's too much emphasis on luck of the draw and the only way you could be sure there was no tampering going on would be to keep the cars in impound 100% of the - I heard rumors that there was tuning (can squeezing / twisting ) going on with the FK motors at this R4 is this within the letter of the rules let alone the spirit??
Spec or control tires would be difficult to police let alone taking a valuable and relatively inexpensive tuning tool out of the racers hands. Joe I'm not sure where tire poll sample came from but of myself and the four peple around me none of us had natural rubber on our cars for the racing .
Lastly I'd like to make a comment about tech inspection - Joe does a fantastic job but checking chassis , body , motor & tire legality is just too damn much for anybody in the time allotted - he needs the backup of a motor expert and a tire savant to back him up at these big events.

[Greg VanPeenen]

Rick,

Lets have the motor screwed together at the factory. and the seals made wider and run over the brushes and springs. How about that Pal. Then let only factory made and marked tires no racer made tires. That way no messing with brushes and springs and no possibility of trick rubber.

Greg V.

[JerseyJohn]

Having watched and participating in Retro Racing for several years, I can say with a level of accuracy that the winners will always be the winners. Whether Mat, Ron, Randi,Jay,Howie, Noose ETC.The cream always rises Than of course there is the rest of us. The winners will show up sometimes days early. Running and testing, testing and running setting there cars to there max performance. I have seen Ron and Howie race at different tracks. Sonny's in Jersey comes to mind. They both were awesome...Skill is skill. At that level I can see where any perceived or real advantage, Ware a hundredth or tenth of a second makes the difference in winning or losing can make things suspicious. These guys as a whole know how to squeeze every bit out of a car. Noose, who went over and corrected some setup problems with my cars made a big difference for me A mid packer at best. OK so we have a driver Ron, who is the only racer that can rebuild his own motor . Sounds weird, right? seems funky but should he be penalized as a racer because he is also a vendor. Not sure about that one. In my gut I know he isn't cheating. he doesn't have to.I have found that the margin of error in anything mass produced is large. Arm stacks Little different sized. The mags not square in the can or centered. The com cone shaped. Air gap different in the can ETC. Some times we get lucky and get the motor that was manufactured dead on. In a perfect world I would like to think that my motors sent out are spec-ed as above to all proper clearances and gaps however for 15 bucks a quick clean, cut com and balance ( to what level 0 LOL ) a zap and new brushes isnt a bad deal. Im sure whatever position the mags and arm where in the motor before are coming back the same way misaligned or not . I don't expect a lot for 15 bucks but I would love to have the option to pay more to get it blue printed.This is were Ron and Dan have the edge. The can take the time to properly blue print the motor to specs giving it an edge over the rest, And yes the motor is legal. A solution that works for me is to pay more for a blue printed refurb having all of the above done for say 25 bucks. I now have a motor thet will give me all its got. And Or we can allow racers to challenge a motor. Either way I love Retro Racing and Top dogs will always bark at each other. With love JJ

[Noose]

I had the tools for tires with me if I felt they were needed. I have used them in the past too. Yes, we can have a motor expert and we did in Ron but yes again I recognize that is not the answer. The BoD is working on something as I have mentioned.

Announcing what tires work at a given track can be done. No brainier there. Same would go with braid depth too and anything else to help the traveler.

The choice of using that tire should be left up to the racer though. A given car may not work on that type of tire. We are not trying to creat spec cars here remember.

I have done tech so many times I see at least 10 things from the time the car leaves your hands to mine. if someone gets something by me, well I am human. As far as the FK motors go, looked in them and didn't see anything abnormal. Can my eye detect a degree or 2?
Of course not. Manufacturing tolerance on them aren't that great either.

[Fast Freddie]

Pablo
You started Part B I was the orginator of Part A. Part A got nixed very quickly due to too much bickering.

[Pablo]

I know that, Fred. Just clarifying

[TSR]

Part B was not shut down because the discussion is so far, more civil. However I got my padlock near the door...
Just in case, you understand.

[Pablo]

[Victor Poulin]

Part B was not shut down because the discussion is so far, more civil. However I got my padlock near the door...
Just in case, you understand.

See,,, sometimes we CAN be good boys !!