1442 replies to this topic

[jimht]

I'm stunned at the numbers some of you throw out as to what you've been willing to spend on motors, and to no avail. I can't see why any raceway would go out of business with such free spenders around... I'm also suspicious that some of you just like to collect motors.
 
You'd think with all the money being expended (to find the fastest motor out of all the slow motors) there's be more of the expendees on the podium instead of the same old same old.

Ya know, in the Open classes where everyone gets to run the fastest motor they can, price irrelevant, the motors still don't run the same.
 
In fact, there seems to be about the same variation in motors as there is in drivers or builders or gears or tires or chassis or bodies or whatever... go figure... unfairness and inequality is everywhere.
 
I don't know why we even bother keeping score. It's all so unfair.   

[Noose]

I don't know why we even bother keeping score. It's all so unfair.   

 
Because you play to win the game! LMAO.

[Rick Davis]

My first choice would be the same as yours!

I'm almost in the same camp but why limit it to those vendors - do a search for someone with the capability of supplying us consistent motors whoever it may be.

[Tex]

I cannot believe that people think it is OK that a motor is out of specs

 

I don't think anyone has said it's "OK". We have merely acknowledged that there ARE "out of spec" motors AND that there will ALWAYS be a percentage of motors that fall into this category AND that for us to avail ourselves of the manager of the Chinese factory that currently makes the motors would be fruitless. You CAN get better consistency in the manufacturing process... but you gotta pay. You want it a little better? You pay a little more. You want it a LOT better? You pay a LOT more.

[kvanpelt]

I'm almost in the same camp but why limit it to those vendors - do a search for someone with the capability of supplying us consistent motors whoever it may be .

 
You are correct Rick, there are many capable of supplying us. I just used them as examples, even though I'm biased toward Ron, as he has done most of my C-can work very well over the years.

[John Streisguth]

I'm sure the spec for the PD arms could be 25° ±0°... and they would cost over $100 each per arm. The tighter the tolerance, the more the price goes up because you end up scrapping a higher percentage that does not meet the spec. If you wanna play, you gotta pay.
 
I was thinking, seven years ago would this discussion even be happening? Probably not... this was all new and everyone was just having fun. Now it's gotten serious...

[JerseyJohn]

This is the truth of the matter, no spin at all.

In slot car racing (all of slot car racing every class) it is an Armature War. Finding that one really fast armature. Then finding the set up that arm works best in would be number two. Period end of sentence!

All cheap DC electric motors, and yes, fifty dollars is cheap, have the same problem - maybe one in a hundred is a lot better then the rest. Does not matter if it's made in America or China. That is the nature of the beast. Armatures made in the USA by ProSlot are probably better then the very cheap stuff made in China, but there is a plus and minus built into the winding machines that both use. and the timing on the comms used by Pro Slot varies; it's not even the same in every segment on the same comm most of the time. Even worse in the motors made in China.

Want a really good sealed motor all American made and exact in every spec. Then bust out your wallet and get ready to get off a hundred and fifty or more for each motor. THEN GUESS WHAT. They still will not be all the same. The more you pay the closer they get but even when you get up to open motors. THERE ARE STILL THOSE REALLY GOOD MOTORS.

This is a hobby or a sport, what ever you want to call it, where grown men race toy cars. You have a choice to race or not to race. You have a choice of what class or classes you run. In Retro you have a choice of what motor to run. If you don't like the choices, go fishing or play golf.

I plan on Racing retro cars and I plan on using Pro Slot and JK motors.

CAN I hear an AMEN, BROTHER!!! And there folks is the simple answer...

[JerseyJohn]

Because you play to win the game!  LMAO

YES, WE DO!!! 

[Cheater]

... My first choice would be to buy three $100 blueprinted motors...

 

My first choice would be the same as yours!

 

I'm almost in the same camp...

Sounds like a consensus a-building, so why don't you guys assemble all the other like-minded folks together and write your own rules for the "Blueprinted Retro Racing Association" and build an organization and a set of rules more to your liking?

The point that most irritates me about all this whining and carrying-on about IRRA™'s rules is this: except for the five BoD members, no other person has a membership in the organization nor a direct involvement in creating and managing IRRA™ and its rules set. There are no dues; IRRA™ does not charge anyone to use the IRRA™ rules as long as they agree to use them as written and umodified.

Yet there are a significant number of racers who seemingly insist they have some God-granted natural right to demand change in the IRRA™ rules to suit their personal preferences. And I would really like to know where those people have come by such a belief. Can anyone explain where this attitude comes from?

Since so many exhibit the passion of religious zealots, perhaps this comparison will resonate. Would anyone here go into a church of which they were not a member and demand that the church's teachings and beliefs be changed to match theirs? (I doubt it, but I could be wrong.) No, most anyone would seek out another church that was in sync with their beliefs, or perhaps start a new church to promote them.

But that's not how many people behave in the world of slot racing...

[Cheater]

You have a choice to race or not to race. You have a choice of what class or classes you run. In Retro you have a choice of what motor to run. If you don't like the choices, go fishing or play golf.

Clearly, Greg, there are some Retro racers who don't view it this way. If they can't acheive the changes in Retro they demand must occur, they simply stick around and keep cranking up the level of noise and unhappiness. Thinking, I guess, that they hold some innate and unalienable right to race and that if they scream loud enough and long enough, they'll get their way.
 
I just don't understand that attitude and feel pretty secure in believing that approach is never going to work, as it rarely works anywhere else.

[Tex]

Now it's gotten serious...

 

Only for those not happy. How serious can I be if I only pay $12 for a motor?   I'm still havin' a ball!

[Brian Russo]

Personally I'll run whatever motor the powers to be decide and be cool about it because all I want to do is race and have fun.

If you study the numbers Retro is growing everywhere and that's because different organizations have done a great job with rules and regs. Right now we have choice of motors to run; if you don't like one you can run the other so there really shouldn't be any complaining about the Motors.

It's like TV, if you don't like what's on change the channel.

Pappy

[kvanpelt]

Clearly, Greg, there are some Retro racers who don't view it this way. If they can't acheive the changes in Retro they demand must occur, they simply stick around and keep cranking up the level of noise and unhappiness. Thinking, I guess, that they hold some innate and unalienable right to race and that if they scream loud enough and long enough, they'll get their way.
 
I just don't understand that attitude and feel pretty secure in believing that approach is never going to work, as it rarely works anywhere else.

 

There certainly was no demand in any of my posts that warranted a quote and being told to go elsewhere! 

[kvanpelt]

Isn't this thread titled "IRRA™ Rules comments and discussion"?
 
I guess just as long as the discussion doesn't go against certain the party line!
 
OVER AND OUT!!!

[Cheater]

Kevin,

You infer more than was stated. No one was told to go away but to consider the formation of a rules set where there might racing more aligned with your preferences.

If there is a sufficient number of Retro racers who wish to run blueprinted motors, why not create a set of rules for doing just that, instead of suggesting that IRRA™ change its rules to accomondate those holding such preferences?

Don't you run in races under other rules sets, ISRA perhaps? It should be possible for you to run both in IRRA™ and BRRA races in the same manner.

[John Streisguth]

For what it's worth, as soon as I got home from work I de-wound a Retro Hawk motor that I taken apart after a race a few weeks ago to see what caused it to go "soft" (nothing that was obvious, BTW). I did not need to burn the arm, by working carefully I could de-wind it fairly easily. I found two poles had 65 turns, one pole had 66 winds. When I measured the length of the wires, the one strand was just about an inch longer, which confirms my count was correct. So not exactly to spec, but not "under" spec either.

It was a decent running motor until it lost power. It still finished the race, but I had to be content with a lower finish than I would have had with a healthy motor.

[The Groove]

All I did was say that I did not want to race against a motor that was out of spec from what it supposed to be. Swiss ran two different classes at the Sano and maybe that's the way to do it?

I and others have a lot invested in Pro Slot motors over the years.

[JerseyJohn]

For what it's worth, as soon as I got home from work I de-wound a Retro Hawk motor that I taken apart after a race a few weeks ago to see what caused it to go "soft" (nothing that was obvious, BTW). I did not need to burn the arm, by working carefully I could de-wind it fairly easily. I found two poles had 65 turns, one pole had 66 winds. When I measured the length of the wires, the one strand was just about an inch longer, which confirms my count was correct. So not exactly to spec, but not "under" spec either.

It was a decent running motor until it lost power. It still finished the race, but I had to be content with a lower finish than I would have had with a healthy motor.

 

John,

 

That's the point why I like my PDs. Do I want to risk a DNF with a FK style motor in a points race...??? NO. Unless as in our GTC-FK where we all run FK style motors. The RH IMO is a great short track motor.

 

But again it's a preference and I like the fact that we have a choice...

[Cap Henry]

I'm with Rich. I don't care that there is another option, but I do feel the option needs to meet spec. And close enough, nominal, or China made doesn't matter. Spec is spec.

[Greg VanPeenen]

 
 

Sounds like a consensus a-building, so why don't you guys assemble all the other like-minded folks together and write your own rules for the "Blueprinted Retro Racing Association" and build an organization and a set of rules more to your liking?

The point that most irritates me about all this whining and carrying-on about IRRA™'s rules is this: except for the five BoD members, no other person has a membership in the organization nor a direct involvement in creating and managing IRRA™ and its rules set. There are no dues; IRRA™ does not charge anyone to use the IRRA™ rules as long as they agree to use them as written and umodified.

Yet there are a significant number of racers who seemingly insist they have some God-granted natural right to demand change in the IRRA™ rules to suit their personal preferences. And I would really like to know where those people have come by such a belief. Can anyone explain where this attitude comes from?

Since so many exhibit the passion of religious zealots, perhaps this comparison will resonate. Would anyone here go into a church of which they were not a member and demand that the church's teachings and beliefs be changed to match theirs? (I doubt it, but I could be wrong.) No, most anyone would seek out another church that was in sync with their beliefs, or perhaps start a new church to promote them.

But that's not how many people behave in the world of slot racing...

Cheater 2 of those 3 guys tried that build your own thing in Michigan Retro, results no more Michigan Retro.

[slotcarone]

You know there is something I think everyone is missing here--look at many of the race lap totals and you will find what I believe is the closest finishes in all of slot racing classes. Many races will have two or three drivers on the same lap. Why are we even worried about this stuff as it seems the racing can't get much closer than it already is.Does anybody really think that allowing built motors in retro will change the people that are consistantly on the podium?  IMO it will only change the amount of laps seperating the finishing positions.

[Matt Sheldon]

This is the truth of the matter, no spin at all.

In slot car racing (all of slot car racing every class) it is an Armature War. Finding that one really fast armature. Then finding the set up that arm works best in would be number two. Period end of sentence!

All cheap DC electric motors, and yes, fifty dollars is cheap, have the same problem - maybe one in a hundred is a lot better then the rest. Does not matter if it's made in America or China. That is the nature of the beast. Armatures made in the USA by ProSlot are probably better then the very cheap stuff made in China, but there is a plus and minus built into the winding machines that both use. and the timing on the comms used by Pro Slot varies; it's not even the same in every segment on the same comm most of the time. Even worse in the motors made in China.

Want a really good sealed motor all American made and exact in every spec. Then bust out your wallet and get ready to get off a hundred and fifty or more for each motor. THEN GUESS WHAT. They still will not be all the same. The more you pay the closer they get but even when you get up to open motors. THERE ARE STILL THOSE REALLY GOOD MOTORS.
 
This is a hobby or a sport, what ever you want to call it, where grown men race toy cars. You have a choice to race or not to race. You have a choice of what class or classes you run. In Retro you have a choice of what motor to run. If you don't like the choices, go fishing or play golf.
 
I plan on Racing retro cars and I plan on using Pro Slot and JK motors.
 
See you at the races,
 
Greg VanPeenen

 

 

CAN I hear an AMEN, BROTHER!!! And there folks is the simple answer...

 

These guys got it right!

[SlotStox#53]

Just out of curiosity would there be the same issues in Retro land if you were racing regular Parma 16D's ? So called standard motors built within certain specs just like "ALL" slot car motors?

 

Has anyone bothered to tear down multiples of the same motor model & checked for the same tolerances across the board like timing,wind # etc? Hazarding a guess that you'd probably find the same one off on turns here & there and also small differences in timing just as is being reported on these RH. I would imagine this isn't unique to the RH or the PD , it's just the fact people are deciding to strip these motors down and making a big song & dance about it.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if this issue was present  if you jumped in the Wayback & checked out a bunch of original Mabuchi FT16D

[Gator Bob]

These are my thoughts... Note: Readers opinions may vary.
 

Zero time now.
 
Maybe tonight I'll post if I'm not too busy.

Thank you, Mike..

 

So what's the big deal here over a 12-buck motor?
 
Same big deal as a $5,500 motor. And .... what about the cost of a claim, then it cost how much? So if someone buys enough motors and there is no set 'spec' and no one at the track that day puts in a claim and no one is there to tear it down for inspection then having a short wound motor is legal.
Or cheating?
 
I have been trying to hold off commenting on the issues with RH windings, etc. My opinions are these.

• It's a cheap, mass-produced Chinese manufactured motor.
• The specs for all mass produced motors should allow a plus or minus 1 turn per poll.

The REAL reason for all of this bulls&&& is there are certain people and groups that want and wish this motor to fail, plain and simple, and they will look for any anomaly to do so.
 
So you say?
 
So I ask, if I find a Puppy Dog with windings off are we going to stop using them???

Then you should be excommunicated.

 what if a PD is found to have timing outside the 25 degrees +/- 3 degrees. Should all of them then be banned? I don't think so.

No, just the importer, manufacturer, or rebuilder should be held accountable

We are talking about racing slot cars here, not heart surgery. Guys this is comical...

Yes it is comical!

JJ's last line says it all IMO!!!

Oh... and here I thought that IRRA™ racers took this stuff as serious as a heart attack.

 

The word Nominal was to be removed as you can see in the written rules below the pictures of the motors it says that can't be over 30 degrees of timing.

As for your diaper comment I will not stoop to your level.

 ... stoop or poop? LOL

 

My take on all of this is there is no way to make everyone happy. Some just hate FK motors period. I'm OK with that.
 
I do ! Make that allsealed motors. If someone can't put a motor together with a spec arm rule in an inline class they should find a new class or hobby. OR could buy if from a someone who knows how to put a motor together.

I have a hard time believing that ALL PDs have the same timing and winds on EVERY arm. I am also pretty sure that all F7s and TSRs do not have the the exact number of turns on the arm either. These motors are just cheap mass-produced items and they are what they are.

With the price of a PD and the refurbing needed to get them "right" you are approaching built C-can pricing!

Bingo... or buying a few bags of bags of turds until you find a PD that will be fast and last or bigger bags of cheaper turds .

Opening up the rules to build your own motors will create even more problems IMHO.

I don't agree.

To be sure, IRRA racing (TM or LLC) is not perfect and never will be. I say, let's race, do the best you can with the resources you have, and have some fun!

 

You are correct Rick, there are many capable of supplying us. I just used them as examples, even though I'm biased toward Ron, as he has done most of my C-can work very well over the years.

And some that could even learn to 'assemble' their own.

Sounds like a consensus a-building, so why don't you guys assemble all the other like-minded folks together and write your own rules for the "Blueprinted Retro Racing Association" and build an organization and a set of rules more to your liking?

That weird statement has nothing to do with Ron building and organization does it?

The point that most irritates me about all this whining and carrying-on about IRRA™'s rules is this: except for the five BoD members, no other person has a membership in the organization nor a direct involvement in creating and managing IRRA™ and its rules set. There are no dues;

There should be, along with a 'license' and assigned car numbers with a region designation. Example: #77_RE 

IRRA™ does not charge anyone to use the IRRA™ rules as long as they agree to use them as written and umodified.

You ether step up the level of professionalism or it can stay a Kool-Aid drinking good old boy network. I've been pushing on this since I found this game in 2011
 
Yet there are a significant number of racers who seemingly insist they have some God-granted natural right to demand change in the IRRA™ rules to suit their personal preferences.
 And I would really like to know where those people have come by such a belief. Can anyone explain where this attitude comes from?

Could it be backlash from racers to members of a BoD that pushes their personal preferences?

Since so many exhibit the passion of religious zealots, perhaps this comparison will resonate. Would anyone here go into a church of which they were not a member and demand that the church's teachings and beliefs be changed to match theirs? (I doubt it, but I could be wrong.) No, most anyone would seek out another church that was in sync with their beliefs, or perhaps start a new church to promote them.

OMC-Bizarre statement.

But that's not how many people behave in the world of slot racing...

Do you mean like ... "our way or the highway"?.

 

Clearly, Greg, there are some Retro racers who don't view it this way. If they can't acheive the changes in Retro they demand must occur, they simply stick around and keep cranking up the level of noise and unhappiness. Thinking, I guess, that they hold some innate and unalienable right to race and that if they scream loud enough and long enough, they'll get their way.
 
I just don't understand that attitude and feel pretty secure in believing that approach is never going to work, as it rarely works anywhere else.

Greg, reread those comments again in the morning.

I'm with Rich. I don't care that there is another option, but I do feel the option needs to meet spec. And close enough, nominal, or China made doesn't matter. Spec is spec.

Bingo,  Cap is a winner!

Make clear unambiguous and concise specs, put them in the "book" and stick to them.

[MSwiss]

 

All cheap DC electric motors, and yes, fifty dollars is cheap, have the same problem - maybe one in a hundred is a lot better then the rest. Does not matter if it's made in America or China. That is the nature of the beast. Armatures made in the USA by ProSlot are probably better then the very cheap stuff made in China, but there is a plus and minus built into the winding machines that both use. and the timing on the comms used by Pro Slot varies; it's not even the same in every segment on the same comm most of the time. Even worse in the motors made in China.

Want a really good sealed motor all American made and exact in every spec. Then bust out your wallet and get ready to get off a hundred and fifty or more for each motor. THEN GUESS WHAT. They still will not be all the same. The more you pay the closer they get but even when you get up to open motors. THERE ARE STILL THOSE REALLY GOOD MOTORS.
 
This is a hobby or a sport, what ever you want to call it, where grown men race toy cars. You have a choice to race or not to race. You have a choice of what class or classes you run. In Retro you have a choice of what motor to run. If you don't like the choices, go fishing or play golf.
 
I plan on Racing retro cars and I plan on using Pro Slot and JK motors.
 
See you at the races,
 
Greg VanPeenen

 

 

 

what if a PD is found to have timing outside the 25 degrees +/- 3 degrees. Should all of them then be banned? I don't think so.

No, just the importer, manufacturer or rebuilder should be held accountable

Bob,

Like GVP alluded to in the topmost quote, you're expecting too much from a cheap electric motor.

 

A buck and a quarter or a buck and a half and you'll get something precise.

 

Want them all to run the same?

 

Expect $1K each, because only extensive track testing and tossing out motors will guarantee that.

 

This is cheap racing.

 

There isn't millions of dollars involved, thus no budget, for all the things you think should be implemented.

 

In your "World", there would have to be guys willing to be full time, unpaid, punching bags.

 

As far as this latest Retro Hawk nonsense, it's just that.

 

The TM BOD has always approved motors based on the realistic manufacturing capabilities of whatever company involved.

 

We added "nominal" to the timing description of all the motors because it was well apparent all Puppy Dogs were not 25 degrees.

 

Just today on Slot Talk, on FB, Ron Hershman posted;

The problem in most all motors is not the armature per say but the Set-up. Now in the Puppy Dog motors, the biggest variance in the motors is in the set-ups. The air gaps vary, the magnet strength varies, the alignment of oilites and brush hoods can vary. In the arms the timing can vary about 3 degrees on average,

 

 One highly technical racer who has commented here today, who purchased 8 arms with another racer in the hopes of resurrecting some dud motors,

when he reads Ron's claim of  "timing can vary about 3 degrees on average", I hope he doesn't blow his coffee, or whatever beverage, out of his nose

on to the keyboard. LOL

 

PS- and as Tex mentioned a few days ago and someone else alluded to, the TSR D3's and F7's don't all have exactly 65T.

 

The first one I dewound yesterday had 1 pole with 62 turns.

 

The 2nd motor did have 65 turns on all 3 poles.