3573 replies to this topic

[havlicek]

Hi Ernie,

This group of motors are all boxed-up and ready to send north tomorrow. There really wasn't anything to see on the outside...just a very clean FT36D can and end bell with some beefing-up of the endbell. Chris had sent along some very clear instructions and really nice NOS parts and bagged each motor and parts, so this particular motor wasn't to be some bizarre cross-breed...just a solid FT36D to be run hard. These are my favorite old-motor builds, nothing crazy and no modern end bell hardware installed on an old end bell. The spirit is very much just a clean build as it might have been done back then and with all original parts. This #28 wind (even with Arcos) is about as warm as I like to go for an FT36D that needs to stay together for longer running times.

-john

[Alchemist]

Thank you John for letting me know! I'm sure you'll be posting another exciting rewind real soon - can't wait!

Hope you and everyone had a wonderful Christmas time.

Happy New Year!!!

Ernie

[Marty N]

John, what is the stack OD and length on these 36 D motors and what is shaft diameter? I've neve played with these motors.

[havlicek]

Hi Ernie...will do Happy New Year to you!

Hi Marty,

The stack length (with the end insulators) is around .570". You can remove the insulators and get a shortened stack with the same amount of magnetic pole material for sure, but then you have to go through the extra trouble of being sure you re-insulate the stack. Stack diameter is somewhere around .657", and the shaft diameter is ,082".

The motors are fun and are often installed in stock car chassis today from what I've seen, but I've seen all kinds of these things and often sidewinder. Philippe posted a super-looking FT36D rewind sidewinder car a ways back in one thread here somewhere that was ultra cool looking, but I have no way of searching back to find it. Probably somewhere in the "vintage" cars forums. With Arco magnets (or some modern strong magnets adapted to fit), these things can be real torque-monsters. A lot of people seem to favor double winds for the FT36D as well, maybe because you get a slightly softer torque curve and more RPMs?

-john

[GearBear]

John,

What you need for that can is one of these...

http://www.shoppscr....nt-tool-jds5003

They make them for both C and D can's. I'm sure if you looked you might even find one for other sizes as well. I would bet that the can has parallelogrammed on you. So you will need to reshape the can around the slug, and then re-glue in the magnets.

[Gus Kelley]

Hey John! I'm sure that you suffered a typo but the shaft on those is 091 or 093. Gus in Sacto

[havlicek]

Hi Gus...absolutely, thanks!

-john

Gary,

Sure thing! Actually, I didn't realize they made them for D cans, I thought this was a C-can only thing. I should get one of those for D's

-john

[Marty N]

Thanks John, Gus. I'm going to have to try one of those just for kicks. Look like fun little (big) motors.

[havlicek]

Thanks John, Gus. I'm going to have to try one of those just for kicks. Look like fun little (big) motors.

Yep Marty... they can be really fun motors!

I just finished-off the last of a group of armatures I'll be testing out for next year's thingie proxy. I've got a #24, two #25's, a #26, a #27...and this baby ("old school") :



I did up a #29 double wind, thinking this might be just the ticket, since I really want to run a Champion D motor/orange picker end bell with Yellow Dot magnets. The arm comes in at .162 ohms per pole (exactly!) measured at the com, and the stack is just a wee bit shorter than normal for the setup. Com and stack are by Bill Bugenis, and I'll send this one to him for dynamic balancing to be sure it runs as smooth as it can. When it gets back, I'll sit down and run all the arms in the setup to see exactly what's what!

-john

[Marty N]

How many turns on that double, John. Pretty sweet.

[havlicek]

Hi Marty,

It's 36T/#29 dbl. This stack is one of several different lam profiles that Bill was kind enough to set me up with and it has a bit smaller pole face but with a thicker winding leg. 36T/#29 dbl was a pretty full wind on this thing compared to some modern blanks. It should be good for plenty of RPM and hopefully run a little cooler and be less twitchy than it's #26 equivalent... but maybe (?) sacrifice a bit of braking. I'm thinking in such a light car as I plan on building that balls-to-the-walls torque isn't so important.

-john

[Alchemist]

Wow, John!

That double wind looks like a beast!

Ernie

[Alchemist]

Hi John,

What do you need to be concerned with, when doing a "double-wind" as opposed to a "single-wind" please?

Do you find it more laborious than a single wind?

Thank you John.

Ernie

[havlicek]

Hi Ernie,

Sorry I didn't see your question until now.

What do you need to be concerned with, when doing a "double-wind" as opposed to a "single-wind" please?

Well, I'm not really concerned with things as far as doubles go that I'm not concerned about with singles. The connection at the com tabs is ALWAYS really important, especially when you're welding/brazing/"hard-soldering" (whatever you call it), but it's a bit more difficult when you're doing doubles. The meter will tell the tale. Also, because the conductors are smaller (I don't do them with anything larger than #28 wire, most often #29 and #30 wire), it's easier to blow right through a wire if your heater gets too hot or you stay too long on a com tab or worse... you let it arc. Like single winds, I try to keep things neat with doubles, but only the first few layers stay neat and things get a little untidy looking (for me anyway) by the end. Again though, the meter tells the tale and I've run some old/sloppy looking arms that scream. Also, keeping consistent and equal tension on both strands (I don't like layered doubles) is a little more difficult.

Do you find it more laborious than a single wind?

In a word... yes. I suppose that a layered double isn't much more trouble than a single in most ways, but I don't do those anymore.

Speaking of which, I've assembled most of the arms I'll be going through as prospects for the next thingie proxy. On these, they've all been dynamically balanced by Bill Bugenis (thanks, Bill!) and I started off on the completely unreasonable end of the spectrum and worked my way towards the more sane. They include a #24, two #25 winds, a #26, a #27, and a #29 double... all on various blanks and with some variations in stack length. Since I want to use an Orange-picker Champion setup with Yellow dots, I'm not at all sure the big wire arms will be appropriate for a motor to be run in anger... but right now I'm not ruling anything out:



-john

[havlicek]

OK... I've just spent about an hour doing some test-spins of all the above arms in the Champion setup. I did no "optimizing" (playing with airgap, centering the arm in the field, shunts and spring insulation... even tightening the endplay with spacers), so things should get significantly better. I'm a little more confused than I normally am All the arms, even the #24 single(!) seem at least within the realm of feasible, and the results were pretty much as you might predict with the 24 being the fastest and the highest current draw at 3.2A/5.5V with no break-in... and it didn't even melt the springs. The #29D came in at 1.5A and sounded great... but relatively "mild" compared to the #24S (duh). I thought I'd be able to immediately discount the #24, and maybe the two #25 arms, but no such thing.

They all ran smooth thanks to Bill's balancing, although a few seemed to run ever-so-slightly smoother, so even that didn't seem to be a factor that would favor any of them.

I guess I'll have to wait a while to decide based on other factors such as the number of races, the kind of chassis and body, etc. When I do, I'll donate any arms I don't use if anyone is interested. Some may even be useable in a C-can by trimming the tail spacer.

-john

[Pablo]

[GearBear]

John,

Have you done any more Euros for Bill? I haven't heard lately how the tools fared and if he and Lou are back up and running. I'm very interested in getting some of those arms for the Nats in March.

[havlicek]

Hi Gary,

Yes I have, and Bill was still working on getting things up and running last I heard. Bill and Lou have really been through the mill since the flood, so you'd have to get more precise info from them directly.

-john

[wbugenis]

Hi Gary,

I am very happy with the way our eurodsport arms have been working. Especially the 1/32 F-1 motor based on the new small Koford can and endbel that allows you to solder the motor in with the arm on the block leaving the pinion 0.5 mm below the axel centerline every time. This slight hypoid effect works as well with the green gears as the red Vitula gears. All the arms are fast, smooth and, so far, reliable. We are not yet back in production so I am sorry nor to be able to provide arms for this year.

Bill

[havlicek]

Here's what I've been thinking about the "Arm Winding" thread (and of course, the folks who own and run SlotBlog will make the decision). This all started out several years ago as me deciding to document my journey back to my youth with rewinding...and having to relearn everything I forgot, as well as learning some things I never knew. It's been a lot of fun for me, and I suppose maybe at least a little interesting for some who have read the posts and contributed as well. At least part of my rationale for doing all this was based on the fact that people simply didn't do rewinding any more (with a very few exceptions), maybe making the thread a little "interesting". I admit I also was motivated a little by the nay-sayers. Few things make me want to do something more than someone else saying "you can't do that". I've definitely stumbled along the way, more than a few times. As frustrating as that can be, I take that as part of learning. It became apparent that many assumed there was simply no reason to do it because:

1)You couldn't do home rewinding that would be competitive with the factory stuff.
That doesn't at all seem to be true.

2)There's no reason to do it when you can simply buy what you want.
Well, the reason seems clear to me at least, it's both fun and crafty. I mean, there's no "reason" to build chassis and even to paint bodies. What was once a fundamental part of the hobby simply disappeared because of the availability of fast motors for cheap, but the enjoyment was always still there if you wanted it.

3)There'd be no place to race motors with untagged home-made arms.
Of course, you can simply run the motors as many do with vintage cars they still own (which still seems to be a fairly popular thing in Europe). Besides, you can race them in drag cars, thingie races and, if you really have a big set, in "open" classes.

4)It's "too difficult" and requires all kinds of specialized equipment and techniques.
Bunk. You can do credible work with only a very few additional tools over what an average slot racer has. Arms and coms can be salvaged and of course, magnet wire is cheap and easy to get a hold of. There are balancing services that will do a great job of dynamic balancing, but for run-of-the-mill vintage stuff, you can static balance at home and see a significant improvement in how a motor runs.

This brings me to where I'm at today. There really isn't much "new" I can show here, and posting the same stuff over and over again seems a waste of bandwidth. I'm feeling pretty good about my work, although I doubt I'll ever feel like I can't do better. Maybe it's time to simply archive this thread as a "read-only" thing? I mean, the info is all here (ad nauseum) for anyone to gather if they're interested! What do you guys think?

-john

[One_Track_Mind]

Keep 'em coming!
I love looking at your work.

I'm a little biased though in my thoughts.
No one does it any better!
Thanks for all you do!


(null)

[Marty N]

Personally John I believe only the tip of the iceberg has been see here and there is much that could be done with this yet. Myself, this is a thread I check daily and I can't imagine I'm the only one to do so. Your input has been invaluable to my personal race program and I would lament it loss. I have my own site as you know and I know what your feeling right now. What do I do next that will hold attention and be of use to the race community? Lot's.

[boxerdog]

John, I really look forward to all of the posts on this thread. I agree that the scope may have been expanded a little, but please consider keeping it up. All of the work that you do as far as motor "restoration" and "restification" are very interesting. And the results of all of your experimentation are useful to all of us.

I also enjoy seeing how other folks such as Jairus and Rick apply modern knowledge to the vintage motors as well. To some extent, it's too bad that everything we race these days is in some kind of IROC format. Spec arms/motors, tires, chassis, gears...it's great for enabling the driver, but it stifles a lot of creativity.

Maybe a new thread??? Or maybe don't fix it if it's not broken! We want more!

[MantaRay]

Don't Stop Believin'
Keep on Keepin' On

[Michael Rigsby]

John,

I must admit that this is one of the primary threads that I come here to read. Your rewinding thread, the paint thread of Noose's, Jairus's build threads, and DC-65X's threads are my favorites on here and it gives me a blast to the past. I did a lot of rewinding when I was younger and had a place to do it, but now, living in a crackerbox condo, I do not have the room. Your motor rebuilds are a thing of beauty, please don't stop sharing. If you want to taper off and take a break, thats cool, but even something once in awhile is good for us guys who like to see the motors you build. I think yours is one of the most active and read threads on here. It would be a shame not to see it.

MR