169 replies to this topic

[swodem]

I’ll have mine to test soon, they’re on their way.

 

However the winds and stack length are reduced so it will be a much different beast to the 4002.

Please talk about your trials and ideas here - the first thing will be getting the gearing right. Obviously flat track and banked tracks setups will be different - and I am sure that because it’s a more performance-oriented motor to its replacement, life will be short if gearing isn’t in the sweet spot, and being sealed, not so easy to get going again.

Post away, let’s make this a long and informed and interesting thread…

[Bill Seitz]

Pro Slot wasn't specific about how much shorter stack, but my impression it was only a little shorter. From the photo, that seems to be the case. Ten fewer turns, but this is still nothing like a Mura Wasp, more like bringing in line with the present Hawk 6.

 

For the faster tracks, light cars, and .750" diameter tires, I'd expect gearing to fall in the 3.3 to 3.5:1 area, with higher ratios for taller tires, heavier cars, and slower tracks. Maybe up a tooth or two for 64P spurs over what was running on the 4002FK.

[swodem]

I did some googling and found this on Pro Slot's Facebook page

Pro Slot test run against some PS4002FK powered cars.

[gotboostedvr6]

If it's 55 turns of 30 gauge its actually hotter then a Super Wasp.

[gotboostedvr6]

It's rumored the nickname will be Fireball.

[swodem]

It’s possible yours might be Mudface. ;-)

[W. J. Dougherty]

It may not actually be hotter than a Super Wasp. The Wasp does have five more turns of the same wire size but the Wasp has a shorter stack length and allows for more timing on the arm which should make it faster

[Tim Neja]

Which cars in the test above ran the new motor???

[swodem]

Which cars in the test above ran the new motor???

Just one. John Millers one. The rest used the old 4002. He was just trialling it, not racing hard against them

Have a look on ProSlots Facebook page for the whole story, I just placed that screenshot there for the gearing setup info


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[swodem]

Pro Slot wasn't specific about how much shorter stack, but my impression it was only a little shorter. From the photo, that seems to be the case. Ten fewer turns, but this is still nothing like a Mura Wasp, more like bringing in line with the present Hawk 6.

 

For the faster tracks, light cars, and .750" diameter tires, I'd expect gearing to fall in the 3.3 to 3.5:1 area, with higher ratios for taller tires, heavier cars, and slower tracks. Maybe up a tooth or two for 64P spurs over what was running on the 4002FK.

 

Looking at that pic, I count 28 shims in the stack

That's the same as a 4002

So they must be thinner, or that's a mocked up motor for the pic with an old arm 

[Bill Seitz]

The ProSlot Big Dog arm is 55T30, and I believe the Hawk 6 arm is 55T30. I have both of these and a high timed (42 degree) Super Wasp. The Super Wasp is clearly faster than either. The Chinese arms have a stack length about .400, which I expect is similar to the Speedball. The Wasp stack is .350. I figured this out at one time, and the Wasp still has less wire despite the 5 extra turns. What could make a difference and make this close to the Wasp is timing. The ProSlot USRA "F" motor is 38 degree timing. The Big Dog is 25 degrees which I assume is similar to the Chinese arms. If the new Speedball arm is also 38 degree, than it's closer to the Wasp and would need to be geared up around 3.7 - 3.9:1. If this is all true, and a recent race report seems to justify that, the Speedball will have less torque but higher rpms, so needs to be geared appropriately. Using aggressive gearing under 3:1 like solid neo motors will not work on this one.

[swodem]

No I think it will be a very short life geared 3:1


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[W. J. Dougherty]

According to PS the Speedball will have 25d of timing

[Bill Seitz]

25d timing would make this arm equivalent to the American PS Big Dog arm which I have in a poly neo Hawk 6 setup. For a Group "F", this motor seems happy at 10/37 on larger, faster tracks. Larger tires and heavier cars on smaller, slower tracks should gear up (higher ratio) appropriately.

[swodem]

The motors arrived today
A quick look shows that the can seems much better, still not notchy but not as bad as those first 4002’s, and I’ll know once I pull it down, but no visible can tabs anymore.
I’ll remove the seal and strip it down tonight for a deeper look

Thanks John Miller


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[Larry Horner]

I think Bill just made a typo but John Miller at Pro Slot once gave me the following specs for their American arms:

 

Puppy Dog - 80T31 25deg

Hawk 6.      - 65T30 25deg

Big Dog.     - 55T30 25deg

[swodem]

25d timing would make this arm equivalent to the American PS Big Dog arm which I have in a poly neo Hawk 6 setup. For a Group "F", this motor seems happy at 10/37 on larger, faster tracks. Larger tires and heavier cars on smaller, slower tracks should gear up (higher ratio) appropriately.

Larger tyres will make your gearing taller suiting bigger longer tracks

Smaller tyres will lower the gearing

Think how far will the car go for each full armature rotation


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[Bill Seitz]

Dividing the gear ratio by the tire diameter will provide what's sometimes referred to as the "roll-out ratio". This is what the ratio would need to be with 1" tires. If you then multiply the roll-out ratio by the new diameter, this will provide the equivalent ratio at the new diameter.

[swodem]

Great motor I’ve decided from my first short test with it on a smallish track, that was dirty, and i only had time to spray some free goo over the top over a month-old rubbered up surface
 
However, while faster than a 4002, not that much. maybe getting close to S16D pace but would need to try on a bigger track to really know how far the legs can stretch
 
My test chassis was a C43
 
Very smooth. Nicely built and free spinning
 
Nice can design, allows for longer sections of solder on the can end, and the material takes solder really well. I cant see these breaking free easily.
BUT BEWARE, the can can distort if, when being removed from the chassis you're rough (like I was changing gearing). With the 4002, i used to melt the solder on the brace/can, and lever it up using the endbell end of the shaft, bending the solder. Do this with this new motor and the can will bend, binding the rear bushing up.

I tried 9:42 and 10:40 gearing (both 72p) and found 10:40 to feel the nicest. Some fine tuning may be required but this felt good. Motor ran cool and sounded sweet. 72p are not anywhere near as durable as 64p though, so 9:36 64p could be an alternate consideration depending on length of race



The wider can end gives a really good straight edge to line up and considerably more space to tack the motor into place when setting mesh

[swodem]

Here are some other findings:

The arm is lighter - 7.91g compared to 8.73g

The Can (with magnets) is lighter but the same thickness, thanks I guess to the open design 10.98g compared to 11.22g

So the overall package is lighter

There is around 0.5mm endplay

The arm measured 25.5 degrees advance

Stack length is 0.22mm shorter

Overall arm length (including washers) was shorter by 0.13mm

Disclaimer: These are of course measurements made as best as possible, and of one new PS9000 broken down and compared to randomly selected used PS4002FK arm/parts. PS4002FK can was new and had no solder


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[team burrito]

it still doesn't tell us anything about performance - how about a test run?

[swodem]

it still doesn't tell us anything about performance - how about a test run?

Have a read on Facebook pages Pro Slot, or Auckland Slot


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[team burrito]

i'll be testing one this friday in a wing car - i'll let you guys know the results.

[team burrito]

well as promised, i have to say i like the speedball motor. i had two cars: one with the 4002fk motor & the other with the SB motor. in practice, the 4002fk turned 4.1814, geared at 13/36 & the SB turned 4.1116, geared at 12/36. i'm not used to running wing cars & i didn't drive it as hard as i could, but the SB car was more drivable & felt comfortable. i ended up in 5th out of 15 drivers with a shitload of collisions. the car handled really well & had good speed. my best time was 4.2189 while the top guys were turning 4.0076 laps. i could have drove it faster, but it would be out of my comfort zone - i guess i need a little more practice. BTW: i ran the motor with the stock brushes & springs - i highly recommend this motor.

[gotboostedvr6]

You over geared it. We had to drop 2 teeth 64p with our cars and the motors still layed down after heat 5 and 6.

Flat track results from 2 other top racers provided the same feedback.

Thankfully our large monthly races are still allowing the well throughout 4002fk