346 replies to this topic

[Noose]

Thanks for getting this going Mike... I guess I need to get a few bodies and some tires and get started.

The bodies we got. Start building! Need to secure those tires though. Foamy's post on those tires for the rears makes sense too.

[Rick]

So now the fronts have been increased to 7/8"? Is this a ,for sure, final size?

[Mike Steube]

Rick, the fronts have been 7/8th" dia. all along. No change here. I just clarified the minimum width as being .200".

[Rick]

Rick, the fronts have been 7/8th" dia. all along. No change here. I just clarified the minimum width as being .200".

Mike you are correct, with the sizes jumping around and from fractional to decimal on the rears, I though I had read it wrong, whew. jig wheels are good, LOL

[TSR]

Rick,
We also use big fat O-rings on the Russkit fronts, and then grind them flat and narrower.

[Mike Steube]

Dokk, I tried the Russkit wheels with the o-rings Bryan gave me. The car was 2 tenths slower and de-slots alot more than with soft front tires. The wheels are great. The hard front tires(o-rings) were terrible on my car.

I talked to Lenore tonght and got a date set for the race.
Sat. April 18th. The track mostlikely will open at 9 or 10 am. I'll finalize the starting time as we see how many might turn out.
I've chosen the King track for the first event. I'll post the race date on the rules page.

[slotcarone]

What front tires did you find worked best?

[Tex]

Wanna REALLY mess with their heads, Mike? Tech the cars in up front and make them run the SAME car/gearing on both tracks.

Talk about some torqued nuts!

[Mike Steube]

Soft fronts worked best, so far.

[TSR]

Darn, so much for all those old Associated front wheels I guess!

[dc-65x]

Hey Mike,

All this makes me wonder how the rock hard K&B tires you guy used to run would work today . If you'd like to experiment I could loan you a pair mounted on wheels and ground to 7/8" to try out.

[Mike Steube]

Rick, PM me about the tires.

[Mike Steube]

After reviewing the #5 R&C race I feel I've errored in the 110 gram weight limit. The Morrissey "Heavy Weights" clearly show 1966 Pro-Cars at well above 110 grams. The road testing of my proto-type jailer showed me that the light car was fine on the banked, swoopy BPR King. On BPR's Flattrack the car was unpleasent to drive. The car is just too light in the front end. This weekend I'll be making a decision about raising the maximum weight limit to 125 grams. This weight should be inline with the photo records we have. I personally feel if the cars aren't fun to drive this type of racing will be short lived. The cars will of course have to look like the cars from the era we're honoring. I want to represent this era with respect and I now believe it would be benificial to raise the weight limit.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

EJ's does a re-pop of the revell tire above.

All my surviving period associaciated fronts are 3/4, though. In the day, I did the same as the above part, used the revell rear tire, turned down and clear coated. Though the 66 ferrari I always bring with me to BP seems to have the wider monogram rear turned down on it.

I think it was a "looks" thing. Uses a cox mag wheel as well.

As for Ricks "various threads"...I see this as a good thing. IN THE DAY, the likely hood that those of us "chatting" here would actually get to know each other was unlikely. Les mobility and travel relatively more expensive than now. And keeping in touch would have been by "snailmail" not a quick daily note. For keeping in touch, these are "the good old days".

Fate

[Hworth08]

After reviewing the #5 R&C race I feel I've errored in the 110 gram weight limit. The Morrissey "Heavy Weights" clearly show 1966 Pro-Cars at well above 110 grams.

Here is a car Mike Morrissey thought might have been too heavy:

http://www.theindepe...isseyWhatIf.htm

Appearing in the November 1967 Car Model magazine, the car was likely built around August of 67.

Rick (DC-65x) reproduced this car and it does make a very nice tutoral on building these frames. Maybe Rick knows what the car weights?

[dc-65x]

Hi Don,

This car.....



.....with a 16D and 20 grams of lead on the drop arm.........



.....weighs 144 grams ready to race.

This 1966 Mike Morrissey R&C race winning clone.......



.....with a 16D weighs 104 grams ready to race. It needs a slab of lead on the drop arm just like Mike Steube did on his car in the same 1966 R&C race. I'm letting the tires dry out a bit also as the car drifts just a little then tilts out of the slot with no warning. Not good. I want to be DRIFTING

[Mike Steube]

Thank you guys for all of this help. So, I'm seeing this Morrissey car without the lead weighing in at 124 grams. This being the case the 125 gram weight limit change I'm concidering wouldn't be out of line. I love the look of these old cars and want to race them. When road testing my 110 gram proto-jailer I was dissapointed with it's Flattrack handling. Only a few would be able to keep my present car on lap after lap, maybe only one person, Duran. I wasn't and Starrett wasn't able to keep it on lap after lap without babying it to the point of just plain going slow.

[Toremeister]

Thank you guys for all of this help. So, I'm seeing this Morrissey car without the lead weighing in at 124 grams. This being the case the 125 gram weight limit change I'm concidering wouldn't be out of line. I love the look of these old cars and want to race them. When road testing my 110 gram proto-jailer I was dissapointed with it's Flattrack handling. Only a few would be able to keep my present car on lap after lap, maybe only one person, Duran. I wasn't and Starrett wasn't able to keep it on lap after lap without babying it to the point of just plain going slow.

Perhaps you should consider a Death-Star motor ! Lot more period correct and may even handle better or allow both..........Eh I don't really care (Just a suggestion),,,,,,,I'm gunna Stoke on this race either way,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now that they have bastardiced Retro-Pro,,,,,,,,,,,,From now on I'll probably race nothing but G7 ........Pokey Doors and Euro-Sport !

[Mike Steube]

Tore, when I was testing the inline F-1's back at the begining of D-3 I ran tests comparing the Death Star and the Slick-7 (Falcon 5). The Death Star had a slight advantage in HP but, the Falcon had the advantage in handling. D-3 and Falcon 7 motors fill the gap in the HP department. The 110 gram proto-jailer I've been testing is fine on the BPR banked track. The handling of the proto-jailer on the Flattrack is like driving a hardbody car that is way to tight and gives no warning it's going to tilt out of the slot. I personally don't want to run these cars on the King track only, boring. There is so much more interest in this adventure than I expected. I'll continue to do research both in old photos, old articles and road testing proto-jailer chassis'. I want to get this thing right or, very close. There aren't alot of guys who like to drive cars that are hard to keep in the slot, only a few die hards. I believe we can get these old designs performing at a level that will be fun without sacrificing the classic look of these slot cars.

[endbelldrive]

Unfortunately I'm a few too many miles away from the BP flat track these daze but would fiddling with the wheelbase and guide lead make it a little less twitchy/tippy? I gotsta know.

[Jairus]

Bob, I believe you are more correct that you think.
Mike mentioned in the beginning of this thread that his wheel base was 4 inches and the guide lead 7/8". Lee Gilbert, in his wonderful 6 part story about building a pro car in 1973, mentioned that the perfect compromise wheelbase length was actually 3 7/8" with a 7/8" lead. When I heard that the first race would take place on the Flat Track, my initial thought was that Mr. Steube's WB was too long. These jaildoor replicas have too much weight resting on the front wheels to simply dismiss the effect of the scrub in the turns like pan style D3. I suspect that the WB and tire material will end up being huge factors in building a Flat Track car that preforms well without tipping.
Not to mention additional weight... the 110 weight limit makes sense on the King... but for the Hill climb and Flat Track, one will really need 125+ to keep those cars in the slot with-out tipping.

Not that I am an expert, I'm just saying.

[Mike Steube]

Both Jairus and Bob Have good ideas. I've built something like fifteen or twenty cars for BPR's Flattrack. Everything from 3and3/8th" wheelbase x 7/8th" guide lead to 4and1/8th"WB x 1.0" GL and every combination inbetween. There for awhile I didn't think I could find a combination for this track. I went back to the building bench. Decided on 4.0" WB x 7/8th" GL (4.875" rear axle center to guide pivot center) and built a car that resembled 1967 and 1969. It turned out to be the best car yet for the Flattrack and the Kingleman track. Warmack swears by this measurement combination for the Flattrack. Gibert's specs. would have been for an angle winder which is a completely different animal.
What's in my brain at this time is a two or three railer, spaced rails, as close to the motor as possible. A narrow center section that flexes alot and a heavy drop arm. Sorta a F-1 with body mounts. Without any brass strip or plate of course. It's possible that the 5 railer proto-jailer I'm testing is way too stiff and won't let the frame flex enough to keep the front wheels down and the guide in the slot. My F-1 cars on the Flatster were doing this same tipping out from the front end with wide piano wire center rail sections. I built a bronze 2 rail center section with the inner rail up against the motor, very narrow. Put the normal 1/4" wide .062" side pans on it and the tipping stopped and the car jetted to a second behind Duran at the last D-3 Flattack event. So, I'll use this F-1 build info to build my next Jailster. ( Cool, Jailster..Goatster Lingo?)

[Tim Neja]

Why a weight limit?? Was there a weight rule in 1966?? I seem to remember some pics of lot's of lead on the cars? Or it could be my "sometimers" checking in too!!!
T

[Hworth08]

Mike,

You'll most likely have some help in a week or two sorting these cars as I believe some cars will be built.

If you can find them, I'd try a pair of the Parma doughnuts that are on their big sheet. I'm pretty sure these are the MX tires that Fate has mentioned. I'm also pretty sure these are synthetic rubber that's about a grade softer than Wonder rubber. I don't remember how tall they are.

Smaller hubs might help too. Smaller hubs usually lose grip but gain stability. But what is a small hub with a 15/16ths tire??

At least it's fun to sort a car out! I usually enjoy the sorting and tuning more than a race.

[Mike Steube]

Thanks, Don. I can see alot of sorting ahead. It will be worth it. Tim, we are going to put a weight limit on the cars. A few builders, who will remain nameless at this time , threatened to build 145 gram monsters with 20 rails per side. After seeing the 5th R&C report Rick Thigpen posted, raising the weight limit to 125 grams doesn't seem out of line. I'm working on a decision on this weight issue. If I could rely on the builders and racers to build cars that represent the pictures of cars back then we wouldn't have this issue with weight. This is a minor issue compared to starting the D-3 program. The race date is Saturday April 18th. I should have the final issue sorted out this week. This leaves plenty of time to get your car running the best it can. I need to get more bodies on the list.

( Hey, this hunk tilts, where's the lead? WOW! My drop arm weighs 50 grams!! )
Keepin' it fun.