371 replies to this topic

[Noose]

Be careful what you ask for. Putting kits into one class could then lead to very tight restrictions on the remaining classes that could wind up being more of a turn off. My bet would be 90% of the cars out there right now would wind up in the "kit" class because of probable dimensional / construction limits.

It's funny, up until this S7 thing retro has been great. Races are very, very close everywhere. On any day, in any class. The FUN was there. Raceway owners liked when the Retro guys came in because they could tell the difference. The class structure in D3 or IRRA has something for everyone all based on keeping it within the spirit of scratchbuilt cars from the 60s.

As far as rules, a question would come up here and there for clarification and it was handled. All the hard work put into developing the rules was working both in D3 and IRRA. Now, because of those that wish to step outside the envelope with what they think is Retro or to make a buck we wind up questioning everything and are ready to retreat back to the beginning again.

The original SANO (the birthplace of the IRRA) had a great theme. Maximum Solder and Brass. We got it. We knew what it meant. We knew we had to teach others about it. The D3 gang of 4 (PDL, Dennis, Steube,Paul) got it and still do.

So why can't the people running these organizations say no? It's not retro. It's not what was meant. Do we really need to go back and rewrite everything again for the few that just don't get it? Do websites have to be updated every day with the latest rule changes? Give me a break. We have become so politically correct conscious and that we want to give the loophole seekers more ammo to work their skills.

We can freeze technology now. That's it. No more kits. Those that are out there..well they are all that will be allowed. Don't let anyone else even think of making one. Would that work? Hmm..I wonder. The kits out there now have brought people into retro racing that's for sure.

And don't go down the path that everyone must build their own chassis. Sure it would be great if they did. But guess what? We didn't back then either. Look at those various old race reports and see how many guys were running an Emott chassis or a Tony P chassis.

The fun of this is fading really fast. It's gotten to the point that I feel like we have to be government inspectors and write military rules.

[gascarnut]

The D3 gang of 4 (PDL, Dennis, Steube,Paul) got it and still do.

Just to be completely correct, I was not part of D3 management.

What I was involved with in SoCal was the predecessor of D3, up to the end of 2006.

D3 was formed in January of 2007, by which time I was living in Colorado.

[Noose]

OK..I stand corrected.

[slotcarone]

Very well put Joe and I agree 100%. This all goes back to a post I made about 100 posts ago that I don't care to look for but this whole post has gotten way off base. People want to make changes that aren't needed or warranted. Just my opinion

[Noose]

Now to address the picture of the car that was posted (the one on the left). Yes it was allowed to run in a major race. Why, because I didn't catch or question it. I blew it. I saw things later in looking at the photos from the race and certain things stood out to me that I realized should have been questioned. No need to go into them now as it's clear for all to see.

Would I allow it again? Nope. For the same reason I am against the S7. And my answer? Anyone want to guess because I am really tired of saying it.

[Mike Steube]

So, a group of men start the IRRA and offer it to others to join in. Then, those that join in don't want to follow the IRRA leadership's decisions. The joiners want to make the decisions. IRRA, don't let this small, special interest group overthrow all of your work. So what if it's not what these special interest groups like. What scratchbuilder wants to compete with a $100,000 EDM machine? Duh, it's a scratchbuilding organization. Human scratchbuilders against human scratchbuilders. So the cars aren't period correct, big deal. The human factor is there. If a person can't build, which is BS unless he is disabled, then he needs to aquire a hand built race car. Machine made components should be outlawed, but that would be taking it a bit too far, I suppose. Some racers feel they don't have to pay their learning to build dues. They want that A main winner and they want it now. IRRA, don't give in. Keep the kits in a kit race for kit people.

[John Streisguth]

Joe:
I know what you're saying, I am one of the ones that "get it", unfortunately there are many that look at the rules and interpret them literally. Can't say as I blame them. That seems to be the impasse, the letter of the rules versus the intent. The S7 chassis kit seems to have shined a very harsh light on the situation, but maybe this is good. Make the changes now so that the "spirit" and intent of the original idea is retained, rather than slowly eroded away. At least maybe one aspect can be put to rest for a while. Besides the fabrication techniques, maybe also the chassis design. As PDL noted, maybe ban center rails, limit the amount of sheet material. Does it always have to move forward? Maybe it's time to take a step backwards.
In any case, I appluad what you and the others on the BOD have done. Keep up the good work.

[John Streisguth]

So, a group of men start the IRRA and offer it to others to join in. Then, those that join in don't want to follow the IRRA leadership's decisions. The joiners want to make the decisions. IRRA, don't let this small, special interest group overthrow all of your work. So what if it's not what these special interest groups like. What scratchbuilder wants to compete with a $100,000 EDM machine? Duh, it's a scratchbuilding organization. Human scratchbuilders against human scratcbuilders. So the cars aren't period correct, big deal. The human factor is there. If a person can't build, which is BS unless he is disabled, then he needs to aquire a hand built race car. Machine made components should be outlawed, but that would be taking it a bit too far, I suppose. Some racers feel they don't have to pay their learning to build dues. They want that A main winner and they want it now. IRRA, don't give in. Keep the kits in a kit race for kit people.

Mike, on the money 1,000%.

[MSwiss]

Perfect for some organizations but not legal in D3 as the rules clearly and specifically ban pillow block construction as well as multi-piece motor/axle brackets.

PdL,

Does D3 not allow the BWA bracket?

[jimht]

Define "chassis kit".

[tonyp]

Two bat pans and a drop arm. All unusable unless massaged with a Dremel tool.

[TNTTires]

There is a simple solution to this if the IRRA and D-3 don't want this to run simply make that ruling put in print form to everyone involved. Send Rudy a formal letter on your letterhead and saying the decision has been made by our Association that your Retro Chassis Kit is not deemed legal. It is that easy, if someone did not preapprove this product then you have the right to ban since you have the final authority on rules intrepetation.
The reason you have a problem is because you allowed a Kit Chassis in the 1st place. It was allowed because the right person introduced it and right person sold it. JK made a knock off of that and so it had to be legal. You allowed EDM motor bracket to run because it was better and available. Another can of worms not bent or formed, manufactured with modern technology.
PDL-Dynamic Chassis' from the 60's were all Center Rail and had preformed struts for the axles made of magnesium.
Tony

[TSR]

Hi Mike,
A question that no one asked before and indeed relevant. We feel that the BWA bracket is legal as it is a 3-sided, one-piece bracket, and not a 3-sided 3-piece-soldered-together bracket, to which we object. In fact it was the first ever available part for D3 builders in 2006, and can be grandfathered as such. I do not believe that it is still in production at this time, not absoluterly sure, because Al Penrose could not afford the expense to make more. The fact that it is machined from stock instead of "folded" as required by the D3 rules is of course not per the letter of said rules, but we feel that it is certainly within the spirit of what we are trying to do.
Regards,

[jimht]

tonyp said:

2 bat pans and a drop arm. All unusable unless massaged with a dremel tool.

Actually I was thinking more of everything that didn't come from the K & S rack.

[team burrito]

What scratchbuilder wants to compete with a $100,000 EDM machine? Duh, it's a scratchbuilding organization. Human scratchbuilders against human scratchbuilders. So the cars aren't period correct, big deal. The human factor is there. If a person can't build, which is BS unless he is disabled, then he needs to acquire a hand built race car.

But not everybody can build a chassis from scratch because it does take a certain amount of skill & practice to make a working chassis. The Slick 7 chassis does make it incredibility easier to put together, so maybe it should run in a separate class. I don't care for it myself, but it's a good place to start for beginners.

[Noose]

I don't care for it myself, but it's a good place to start for beginners.

That's why the JK Spec Class was created. So what's this supposed to be a class for the beginner beginner? That's what Flexi's are for.

[tonyp]

We must repeat over and over:

"RETRO is a Scratch builders class, it is not for everyone, it is not designed to save slot car racing, it is not about modern technology, it is a scratch builders class."

"RETRO is a Scratch builders class, it is not for everyone, it is not designed to save slot car racing, it is not about modern technology, it is a scratch builders class.

"RETRO is a Scratch builders class, it is not for everyone, it is not designed to save slot car racing, it is not about modern technology, it is a scratch builders class.

"RETRO is a Scratch builders class, it is not for everyone, it is not designed to save slot car racing, it is not about modern technology, it is a scratch builders class.

"RETRO is a Scratch builders class, it is not for everyone, it is not designed to save slot car racing, it is not about modern technology, it is a scratch builders class.

[Tim Neja]

Retro is NOT for beginners unless they want to learn to BUILD!! Flexi's--and S7 style kits are for beginners. SImple, no??? See Tony P above!!!



"When you make a comment that offends someone, just say "I'm Sorry" and move on. Instead of trying to fight."

Now PAUL---this statement makes far TOO MUCH SENSE!!! I APOLOGIZE for offending anyone!! It's NOT my intent!!! Now--let's GO RACE!!!

T

[gascarnut]

We must repeat over and over:

"RETRO is a Scratch builders class, it is not for everyone, it is not designed to save slot car racing, it is not about modern technology, it is a scratch builders class."

"RETRO is a Scratch builders class, it is not for everyone, it is not designed to save slot car racing, it is not about modern technology, it is a scratch builders class.

"RETRO is a Scratch builders class, it is not for everyone, it is not designed to save slot car racing, it is not about modern technology, it is a scratch builders class.

"RETRO is a Scratch builders class, it is not for everyone, it is not designed to save slot car racing, it is not about modern technology, it is a scratch builders class.

"RETRO is a Scratch builders class, it is not for everyone, it is not designed to save slot car racing, it is not about modern technology, it is a scratch builders class.

Hey,

"Copy and Paste" is modern technology........

Write that stuff out longhand next time!

[Noose]

There is a simple solution to this if the IRRA and D-3 don't want this to run simply make that ruling put in print form to everyone involved. Send Rudy a formal letter on your letterhead and saying the decision has been made by our Association that your Retro Chassis Kit is not deemed legal. It is that easy, if someone did not preapprove this product then you have the right to ban since you have the final authority on rules intrepetation.

There is no letterhead for IRRA. Per our rules, which I repeat have worked very well, he would have to submit it. He hasn't. No one on the board pre-approved anything either. And yes, we do have the final authority on rules interpretaion as we have said. The problem is everyone wants to know why and as often as we say it they don't like it.

The reason you have a problem is because you allowed a Kit Chassis in the 1st place. It was allowed because the right person introduced it and right person sold it. JK made a knock off of that and so it had to be legal. You allowed EDM motor bracket to run because it was better and available. Another can of worms not bent or formed, manufactured with modern technology.

Ahh..yes. Kits were allowed. They made it easier to scratchbuild. Scratchbuild. Scratchbuild. Not snap or key together. They had to be measured, marked, cut, filed, dremeled, sanded, tweaked, soldered, tweaked some more. Some cut more holes in them. Some made more modifications. My goodness, a competition was actually held to see who could use one of these to make a scratchbuilt car! Scratchbuilt!


Now, let's see. With this one I take it and snap off the parts. I snap them in. Use super duper bondo cuzz I can't solder. Put a motor in it, some axles and gears, tires and a body a presto...I have my very own Retro car. Show me the A Main. I saved hours of work.

[tonyp]

And if you beat me with it I will kick your ***!

[John Streisguth]

Retro is NOT for beginners unless they want to learn to BUILD!! Flexi's--and S7 style kits are for beginners. SImple, no??? See Tony P above!!!



"When you make a comment that offends someone, just say "I'm Sorry" and move on. Instead of trying to fight."

Now PAUL---this statement makes far TOO MUCH SENSE!!! I APOLOGIZE for offending anyone!! It's NOT my intent!!! Now--let's GO RACE!!!

T

I'm with you Tim. That's what it's all about, racing and having fun.

Are we having fun yet??

[John Streisguth]

We must repeat over and over:

"RETRO is a Scratch builders class, it is not for everyone, it is not designed to save slot car racing, it is not about modern technology, it is a scratch builders class."

Seems to me that's what it comes down to. Some want anyone and everyone to be able to put a car together, regrdless of their building skills. Not everyone shares that opinion.

[Noose]

And if you beat me with it I will kick your ***!

And I would deserve it!

I think my problem is what I have in my signature....

The only thing bad about retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.