371 replies to this topic

[Rick]

Take a 2009 LMP car and wrap COT sheetmetal around it, think NASCAR will let it run?

[Noose]

Hmm..Warmack kit



JK Kit



One of my chassis not using a kit. All hand cut.



So where are the snap together parts?

[HarV Wallbanger III]

Ya Larry, letting the racers do what they want will just do what the USRA did to I-15 and Boxstock "15" with the Strap Can and Gp-12 arms in Boxstock 15.

Many people do not know that Boxstock 15 was a class to allow "bought" approved chassis and a limited 15 can motor when it first started. Then they allowed GP-12 arms in it but still called Boxstock 15 as they had the same # wire and turns. (but 15 arms still had a rule on how short the stack could be!???? Later they changed it to Boxstock 12/15.

Then the "can" rule was put on the chopping block at the Nats in '88 in Seattle with Camen's entry plea that racers could not keep up and this new strap can was needed to allow the average racer a chance in I-15. I stood up and told them it was NOT needed at the Nats meeting and was bad for the class. Because the motor was going to harder for the average racer to build and keep alive they (they racers) would shoot themselves in the foot if it was voted in.

Well when racers are told that can go faster thats all the care about and all they hear. It got voted in and then all the same guys that could not keep up found out the hard way that they were still further back then "the fast guys" all over again! Motor smoke filled USRA I-15 races then on! These guys wanted to play hard found out just what they had done. And the fast guys went even faster!

I could name many other things that has happened over the years in the USRA that has led it to where is is now. All the HUGE entries from the days when only 4-5 wing classes were ran until now when even more classes have been added but less turnout is proof.

Faster racing is NOT better racing!
Better racing is more racers and closer finishes!

Spray Glue should be the next change to ALL slot car racing as I believe it would bring back many people to the shops and the races! Its the reason I came back to Retro racing.

See the Checkpoint Cup finishes, now that was a good race!


'Larry Mattingly'
"Let racers decide what they want"...

Oh yeah... that has worked well for USRA!

Racers 'voting' on rules is a recipe for disaster.

LM

[Dave Reed]

I have to add that one reason the USRA is in the shape it is in. Is some of the leadership over the years. They were just trying to advance their ideas... One reason the IRRA and D3 are what they are is the people that lead them.... The people that lead these two groups were there in the 60s they know what it was all about. If you want to run Retro you need to listen to them.... They have been there done that.

[MSwiss]

I really don't understand why an intelligent discussion can't take place about issues involving "retro" racing. The BoD decided the FX kit did would not be approved for IRRA events. I didn't see anywhere the reason this decision was made. I can only speculate that it was the pillow blocks for the front axle that was the issue.
John McMillan

John,
That’s a fair question and I finally have a moment to respond fully.
I can only speak for myself.
Of the 5 IRRA voters, I am the one who would most benefit financially
if the FX and Slick 7 chassis became IRRA legal.
Just the same, I was a no vote on the FX chassis.
When I asked the maker of the FX, what bracket it’s designed for,
the response was “the REH, but I only made a few of these.
The next batch will be designed for the JK which I’m told is more popular.”
IMHO, it and ones like it would hurt Retro racing in the future.
Allowing it would just bring on a myriad of similar “short run”,
keyed assembly chassis plates.
Not only would new companies who had no earlier interest in Retro, jump in
on the bandwagon, the nature of the CNC manufacturing process would bring
out new versions from the same company once their competitor came out
with a popular/innovative new feature.
IE-The Kapoofnick Retro 2 would come out in a heartbeat to battle the great Czechmate Retro 1.
Regardless of the current state of the economy, what raceway would want to
stock these retro chassis plates if they were obsoleted by newer versions every
few months?

Retro and slot racing in general needs stability, not .05 second faster lap times.
The JK chassis and Jerry’s commitment to a stamping die will assure
he won’t have new chassis every year, let alone one every few months.

The rules are structured in IRRA, just because someone wants to come
out with any new product, it doesn’t mean we’ll allow it.
If someone say, comes out with a great set of hypoid gears that are
as smooth as butter, but sell for $50 a set, if at least 3 of the 5 members vote against it,
they will not be allowed.

Retro is about having an excuse to get together with like-minded people
and have some fun. Of course, some are more competitive than others.
But those with want to start racing Retro with the mindset they are going to
outspend the competition or outclever the rules set, they are knocking
on the wrong door.

Of minor note, for those who don't see the difference in the stamped front axle upright of the JK chassis
and a pillow block inserted in a CNC machined slot, here you go.
Not sure what exact year in the 60's the Manta Ray was introduced, but over 1 million were made.
Ray Price doesn't collect non drop arm Classic Toronado's or I could show you a 60's chassis
with a coined guide tongue like the JK chassis also incorporates.

[RomanK]

Me and they were just bent pans. The name Aero is just something Tony gave it. The whole point is not to have a snap together kit. It's about scratchbuilding. If you want to build a model go build it.

Interesting that you saw that type of design in the 60's I did not but I suspect you were exposed to much more than I at that time. The only bent pans I saw were after a wall shot and rarely were the bends nice and even

Another thought here, how much "building" is done by those participants that plop down a wad of cash for a retro frame from one of the "few" actual builders? How often do the race reports indicate that chassis was built by XX or XX rather than by the participant that actually raced it? Prepainted bodies, pre sleeved gears, etc etc seems that those involved have tried to make it as easy as possible to participate with the end result being virtually RTR cars availble for a price.
In as much as I personally would be on the fence about a "snap together" frame such as the Slick7 being legal, I suggest that simply soldering together such a device would be far more "building" than many of todays participants undertake.

I think that retro folks have done an outstanding job building this segment of the hobby yet when evaluating the general age of the participants one would have to wonder about longevity. Today, this is a growing segment of the hobby but there's only so many geezers out there and growth past that will require involving the same demographic that the rest of the slot racing world has been chasing. That demographic, for the most part, is the snap together types. Time will tell what will happen. Good luck to all.

[John Streisguth]

Then there are a few of us who feel that the most critical element is to increase participation so that the 1/24 commercial industry actually survives. If you've been reading Slotblog for some time, you'll have seen my posts about lowering barriers to participation, etc., etc.

Has anybody besides me bothered to count the number of raceways listed in Slotblog's raceway list? If not, the total is 141 and to be honest, there's at least a couple of those listed as "relocating" which may never actually do so. It is acknowledged that there are raceways not listed, but I'll bet we have 90-95% of the real commercial facilities in the US (and if anyone disagrees, you'll have to send the info on the omitted facilities to prove me wrong).

Will 141-155 commercial raceways (and the various club activities in the big scale) be sufficient to support the industry that produces and distributes parts and supplies to our hobby? That's the question I'm focused on.

We should be working toward maximizing participation in retro slot racing, not worrying about some nebulous spirit or intent of "slot racing of the '60s". The phrase "re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" springs to mind.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Here in Northern NJ, there were ZERO tracks open in the late 80's. The first to open was Zeppelin Hobbies, and now they are the only one in existance. There have been probably 10-15 tracks that have opened and closed over the course of 10 years. Zeps is a full line hobby store and have done what they need to survive, including 2 downsizes of their store. Unfortunately right now their racing program seems to have died out, where it had been going strong for many years running Flexi NASCAR with sealed motors. Hopefully, things will pick up again at Zeppelins but in the meantime they will probably survive. Most tracks closed up because of bad business management.

Retro by itself will NOT keep tracks open, it will just add a very different type of car that a track owner can offer to a race program. More important is that he/she does a good job of promotion both inside the facility and more importantly, outside to get new people in. Between USRA, ISRA, etc there are probably 20 different classses that can be run that rely on production chassis and motors (plus anything that can be dreamed up), and it seems in NJ and PA there are a lot of people running modified Womp and TFR (?) cars with dirt and asphalt modified bodies.
If anything, there may be too many choices and not enough people that want to run one particular type of car.

Also, one thing that happens a lot is that a handful of guys become the track "hotshoes", and usually end up winning everything week in and week out. What Zeppelin did (and I think this idea came from another track) was to have the weekly race payouts given out by blind draw instead of the race winners. That way every participant had a chance to win something back from their entry fees, rather than making a weekly contribution to the top guys equipment box. That gets old quick. Friday night races typically had 10-20 participants.

IMO, Retro does not need to be homogenized for the masses, it should be something people would aspire to, to gain the skills to build their own chassis.

[Hworth08]

Mike,

If a Classic frame is used as an example of a pillow block, then could a Kemtron frame be an example of a frame where the holes are cut instead of being punched or drilled?

http://www.vsrnonlin...on/CatC_p10.jpg

The Kemtron frames did use some method of flame cutting and are about as precise as an EDM cut frame.

[Dave Reed]

Roman, Good to get your input on this part of the hobby. The problem is retro IS for the older guys and on a personal note I don't give a HOOT if anyone is DRAWN INTO IT.... You need to worry if anyone will ever want to retro race a 12,27 or an open in 20 or 30 years...

[John Streisguth]

Interesting that you saw that type of design in the 60's I did not but I suspect you were exposed to much more than I at that time. The only bent pans I saw were after a wall shot and rarely were the bends nice and even

Another thought here, how much "building" is done by those participants that plop down a wad of cash for a retro frame from one of the "few" actual builders? How often do the race reports indicate that chassis was built by XX or XX rather than by the participant that actually raced it? Prepainted bodies, pre sleeved gears, etc etc seems that those involved have tried to make it as easy as possible to participate with the end result being virtually RTR cars availble for a price.
In as much as I personally would be on the fence about a "snap together" frame such as the Slick7 being legal, I suggest that simply soldering together such a device would be far more "building" than many of todays participants undertake.

I think that retro folks have done an outstanding job building this segment of the hobby yet when evaluating the general age of the participants one would have to wonder about longevity. Today, this is a growing segment of the hobby but there's only so many geezers out there and growth past that will require involving the same demographic that the rest of the slot racing world has been chasing. That demographic, for the most part, is the snap together types. Time will tell what will happen. Good luck to all.

It's true that not all partcipants build their own chassis, but take a look at some of the race reports and you'll see a wide variety of construction, and if you look at the retro east season update spreadsheet you'll see quite a few racers do build their own chassis. That's the draw. If the demographic to be chased is for easy construction, why isn't there better participation in existing race classes where all you have to do is take a bunch of off the shelf parts and put it together? Retro is unique, that's the reason for it's new-found popularity. It will probably die down after while, and the latest "new thing" will take it's place. And then everyone will have something else to argue about.

[Larry Mattingly]

Yep, that Classic frame was a BIG winner in open racing in the '60's... Not.

Actually a better example and justification would be the line of Dynamic frames which used pillow blocks and bolted together. These were raced against scratch-built cars in the mid-60's, and many WERE competitive.

LM

[Dave Reed]

Not really Larry, most were over one hafe second slower than a good scratch built.

[Noose]

Another thought here, how much "building" is done by those participants that plop down a wad of cash for a retro frame from one of the "few" actual builders? How often do the race reports indicate that chassis was built by XX or XX rather than by the participant that actually raced it?

Well..here is a list of all the chassis builders that have built chassis that have been run in the Retro East Winter Series. I'd say it's pretty decent.

[Don Weaver]

One reason the IRRA and D3 are what they are is the people that lead them...

Despite all the carrying-ons that those of us who race IRRA and post on this Board, the five members of the IRRA board do an outstanding (and many times, I think, a thankless) job. Dave, I agree with you that the IRRA (and D3) is where it is BECAUSE of these guys and we owe them a big thank you!

So, THANKS GUYS!!! This is the most fun I've had since I started slots back in the '60s.

Don Weaver

[idare2bdul]

I'm not sure my question ever got answered. If all the parts on the Slick 7 chassis were sold separately which one would be illegal?

I could see using some of them in a more retro chassis.

As for the earlier comparison to the Mosetti chassis it was right on except for the fact that the Mosetti was designed for a higher downforce body. It's clear that the desire for a more period corrct chssis was an important part of the decision to ban the chassis but it would have been better to have had the original rules for D3 and other retro associations more clearly reflect that. I know I raised the issue and was ignored. I'm still baffled by how people embrace retro but reject 16D motors that more closely replicate the motors of the day.

[slotcarone]

Despite all the carrying-ons that those of us who race IRRA and post on this Board, the five members of the IRRA board do an outstanding (and many times, I think, a thankless) job. Dave, I agree with you that the IRRA (and D3) is where it is BECAUSE of these guys and we owe them a big thank you!

So, THANKS GUYS!!! This is the most fun I've had since I started slots back in the '60s.

Don Weaver

I second that THANKS!!!!

[Rick]

Roman, I luv ya like a brother, but look at the numbers in the Sano and the Checkpoint Cup and compare to the USRA Wing Nats. Retro has something that is correct...................

You are right we are bunch of baby boomers and old. But we are having fun and the numbers prove out that it is being done correctly. The premier race in the world for Slots (USRA NATS)and they post less than 20 Pros? Ride the pony as long as it will hold us. This is the last go around for most of us.........................

[Larry Mattingly]

Not really Larry, most were over one hafe second slower than a good scratch built.

Most... but not ALL.

A great many of them were a full second faster than a 'bad' scratch-built...

We had a couple of guys here in Western PA who could get those things around...

And, check the R&C races. At least one made an A-Main...

LM

[Don Weaver]

But we are having fun and the numbers prove out that it is being done correctly. The premier race in the world for Slots (USRA NATS) and they post less than 20.

If the count is right, we're expecting at least 20+ for the SERRA race next weekend and this is just a regional race in the IRRA program. Must be doing something right, don't you think?

Don Weaver

[Tim Neja]

OK..let's take a look.

Mosetti Eurosport




Slick 7 Retro



I rest my case

ABSOLUTELY!!! This does NOT require ANY building!! Only assembly! D3 is for BUILDERS!!! It's so very simple--all the discussion tries to complicate it. It's not complicated.

The S7 chassis works great--it's NOT a D3 retro chassis. It's a disguised GT12/Euro chassis!
T

[idare2bdul]

Then why isn't there a builder of the car rule like in some RC competitions? Let's see it's better to have a racer buy a chassis from an experienced builder than to learn some building skills putting a Slick7 together?

So tell me which parts I can't use in making a chassis, the pans, the guide, which?

Having driven it it was decent but not a game changer. It does look like a modern Eurosport chassis. what they should have copied was one from the low down force body days.

[Mark Wampler]

So tell me which parts I can't use in making a chassis, the pans, the guide, which?

I dunno Mike.
You probably can't buy just parts from the kit. So if you get the whole kit, then try to sneak the pans in first, do sort of a frankenslick chassis. If you're sneaky, then slip in a few more parts, head piece and so on. I think at minium, you must have a one piece U motor bracket and piano wire main rails. Cut, flat rails will be busted. See how far you get before a red flag is thrown. Worth a try.

[dirty slot racing]

hmmm wow . looks like some chassis may become collector items buy up ?

[Basil]

I have built at least ten retro chassis in the last two years,I also have built many EDM cut chasis for the ISRA series.The Slick 7 kit will be no easier to build than a Warmack or JK kit,not to mention there are so many experienced chassis builders willing to help and teach anyone that wants to learn.With all the information available both locally and on the blog,anything is possible.

[jimht]

So, if the Slick7 were more like the old Dynamic chassis kit pieces...
separate pods for the front & rear, elongated &/or multiple locations/slots to install pieces???
In other words a bunch of parts that could be assembled in many different ways, then how would the Board's "Retro Recalcitrants" feel about it?
I mean, are you guys against making it easier to start building chassis or what?
Please apply that collective Retro brain power to assist the manufacturer in his effort to provide a product by providing guidelines...
not just playing "whack-a-mole".