371 replies to this topic

[Larry Mattingly]

Perhaps, it is the same reason that Rudy never submitted his version of the FK motor to IRRA for approval...

I don't think the IRRA has officially turned down the s7 chassis... yet. Catch 22...

LM

[RomanK]

Can someone tell me when they saw a chassis in the 60's with an "Aero" element to it?

[Hworth08]

a chassis in the '60s with an "Aero" element.

What's an Aero element on a frame?

[Noose]

And the IRRA said no before the question was even asked. Hmmm...

No, the IRRA did not say no before the question was asked. The IRRA said no to the FX. The IRRA said that the S7 was not submitted for approval.

I said I didn't like the S7. I said it is not in the spirit. I said it would be good somewhere else.

[Noose]

Can someone tell me when they saw a chassis in the 60's with an "Aero" element to it?

Me and they were just bent pans. The name Aero is just something Tony gave it. The whole point is not to have a snap together kit. It's about scratchbuilding. If you want to build a model go build it.

[Larry Mattingly]

Roman

That is a valid point, However, even the 'founders' now feel that retro may have been allowed to stray too far from the '60's.

BUT, everyone please keep in mind that the original intent was to give guys a place to 'build' chassis. Also, retro is not a class that is 'based' on a style of manufacturered chassis... Flexi, FCR, GT-12, Box Stock etc. There is no 'mandate' that ANY manufacturered chassis be permitted.

In retrospect, perhaps 'no' kit cars should have been permitted. But, then again I think you would only see half as many guys racing.

'Horns of the Dilemma'...

I still go back to the theory that D3 and IRRA are NOT democracies. The founders/boards of both groups set their standards and rules. If you don't like them... don't play. Or, start your own organization. Simple.

LM

[John McMillan]

I really don't understand why an intelligent discussion can't take place about issues involving "retro" racing. The BoD decided the FX kit would not be approved for IRRA events. I didn't see anywhere the reason this decision was made. I can only speculate that it was the pillow blocks for the front axle that was the issue.

At the present time I have built many scratch built cars and enjoy doing so. I must say that there is much more involved in putting together an FX "kit" than there is the JK retro kit. At least with the FX you would have to solder the pillow blocks in before you slide the axle through unlike the JK in which everything is already done for you. Same thing for the motor box and rails, the FX you make the decision, the JK again its already decided.

I am part of the committee involved in getting the Penn-Ohio series going so I have seen first hand how many people actually build versus people who rely on someone else to build for them. If the pillow block front end is the problem let Ron Thomas know and he could make an adjustment that would satisfy the BoD. To my way of thinking the FX is the next step after the JK in progressing people into building a scratchbuilt car.

John McMillan

[Cheater]

Everyone comes to retro seemingly from a different viewpoint.

Some wanna re-create the environment of their past.

Some are comfortable with an amalgam of new and old.

Some just have to win, no matter what, and their interest is fueled by that perspective.

Then there are a few of us who feel that the most critical element is to increase participation so that the 1/24 commercial industry actually survives. If you've been reading Slotblog for some time, you'll have seen my posts about lowering barriers to participation, etc., etc.

Has anybody besides me bothered to count the number of raceways listed in Slotblog's raceway list? If not, the total is 141 and to be honest, there's at least a couple of those listed as "relocating" which may never actually do so. It is acknowledged that there are raceways not listed, but I'll bet we have 90-95% of the real commercial facilities in the US (and if anyone disagrees, you'll have to send the info on the omitted facilities to prove me wrong).

Will 141-155 commercial raceways (and the various club activities in the big scale) be sufficient to support the industry that produces and distributes parts and supplies to our hobby? That's the question I'm focused on.

We should be working toward maximizing participation in retro slot racing, not worrying about some nebulous spirit or intent of "slot racing of the '60s". The phrase "re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" springs to mind.

[Noose]

John,
There is intelligent discussion going on. That is good. The pillowblocks are part of a style of racing from the 70s not the 60s. D3 rules specifically do not allow them. IRRA rules had that in them but it was taken out because of the bent up front ends on the Warmack and JK kits. Apprantly it should have been left in. Pillowblocks are not in the spirit of what was run in the 60s.

If guys want to make chassis and run then using this type of technology..go for it! Have a blast. They just won't be allowed to run in IRRA.

D3 rules also prohibit the S7. Again, pillowblocks and they require a one-piece 3 sided motor bracket.

[Noose]

Greg, no one said participation in slot racing won't grow because the FX or the S7 wouldn't be allowed in retro racing. Guys can buy all of these kits they want, build them and go race them locally in whatever format they want.

Retro racing is another form of slot racing and only a part of the growth of the hobby. 2 new raceways opened here in NJ. None have a regular retro program and on is looking into starting one. They have other forms of racing going on. One loves when the retro guys come. The other might after a race there.

Other organizations have rules. People race in them and follow them. There are limits on what you can and can't do.

[NY Nick]

Mark you can paint them white and have clear sides, Proslot motors with no seals.
All it has to have is a retro body on it. That is the only thing I like about retro is the cool body's and front wheels.

[Larry Mattingly]

Has anyone bothered to read the first bullet of the IRRA mission statement?

Really points out what the IRRA is all about...

AGAIN... The IRRA is the IRRA. It is an organization that sets its own rules. Other organizations have the same right and power to establish their own rule book.

I don't see anywhere in the IRRA mission statement where its goal is to 'save' the commercial slot racing industry. Or, bail out the manufacturers, which left unchecked, would destroy retro, as they have every other form of slot racing in the past.

As for worrying about lowering the entry level of participation for commercial raceways... don't we already have that in place? What can be easier, less expensive and simpler than flexi-car racing? That form of competition has been around forever. I thought retro was started for other reasons...

From what I have witnessed every track involved in racing retro seems happy. Retro has increased racer participation, increased store traffic, and increased parts sales.

I fail to see how permitting chassis that violate the IRRA mission statement help the organization be true to what it is attempting to accomplish?

LM

[Rick]

I can say that every time new technology is brought into basic slots, it has been a complete bust in the long haul. The current situation is as good as anything for slots in 20+ years because it requires hands on. The ones that get invloved will probably stay involved for a much longer time then the average new particpant because they do not get bored with the same old stuff or get mowed over by the newest trinket of the month.

Every time modern technology is brought on board there is a flurry of sales for a raceway BUT that is short lived and then ziltch follows. The American 16d arm comes to mind. Sold a drove of them for a year then racers bought very little. They last forever. Raceways were much better off selling asian arms at 1/5 the cost and selling them week in and week out.

There is no reason that just because it exists( modern technology) that it should be brought into every venue. There is nothing wrong with a brass and wire chassis. They are working probably better than expected, right now. Snap together kits did not save the model business and it won't save retro, although there is no requirement for a life line yet.

Scale and Groups are about DOA today because the latest technology was trickled down into the lower classes. Expert racers dropped down to race the latest and greatest and ruined the more entry level classes. We should learn a little from past mistakes not to make it all happen again.

As to the debate about the JK and Warmack kits. The Warmack is moot, hes not making any more and look at the JK, at just how many variations of the same basic plate is out there. With a snap and fit kit, there is one, until the first revision to improve it. Obsolence of current equipment is not a way to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy. Its a formula for the end.

Why not approach ISRA/USRA etc and propose they come on board with this type of equipment? Maybe that will spark some new life into both of them? and then they start to have fun racing FK or PD motors they can come over and build a floppy pan car in IRRA or D3.................

[Dave Reed]

This is all about RETRO, As Larry said it is not about manufactures or raceways. If you want to run the S-7 or the FX GO TO IT. Just do it somewhere else!... Just to help some of our thicker racers out, go look up the word Retro. IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT FORWARD IT MEANS TO LOOK BACK!

[Mopar Rob]

For sake of discussion there is nothing wrong with the S7 or FX at a local level for weekly racing. How many people in the US actually travel to attend major retro or scale races? Maybe 50 - 100 ? A track can encourage and grow local retro programs with these chassis knowing that 99% of thier new or current racers will never attend a major race.


It's no different than reverse pan Cheeta 7's from a couple of years ago or JK having to make a 1 piece pan for the Cheeta 11 to make it legal in different areas. Many people race 3 piece Cheeta 11's and have no intention of racing in Europe

If we 50 - 100 racers are actually the ones making up most of the weekly racing, then the hobby has more to worry about then solder in front uprights.

[HarV Wallbanger III]

Mike tell me what post # it is you are pointing to?

Now that this has reached an 8th page, before it get's buried too deep, back on page 7,
Noose made a post for the IRRA on the up to date status on this matter:

IRRA Q&A

[MSwiss]

Barney,
The contents of the link are:

Q: Are the Slick 7 and FX Retro chassis kits legal for use in IRRA? They are being sold as Retro chassis.

A: The FX kit was submitted as required to the members of the IRRA Board. By a vote, the IRRA Board has determined that the FX kit will not be allowed to run in the established classes because it does not reflect the organization's vision or the spirit of a retro racing scratchbuilt chassis. The BoD will in the future explore the interest of its use in either a separate class within IRRA or perhaps another organization running similar type frames.

The Slick 7 kit has not been submitted for approval and therefore should not be considered approved for use. If one is submitted as required, a full review and vote will be conducted and the results shared here on the blog and on the IRRA website.

[Noose]

For sake of discussion there is nothing wrong with the S7 or FX at a local level for weekly racing. How many people in the US actually travel to attend major retro or scale races? Maybe 50 - 100 ? A track can encourage and grow local retro programs with these chassis knowing that 99% of thier new or current racers will never attend a major race.

You are missing the point. If local raceways want to run the FX or S7 fine. Go for it. Call it retro 90s. That is what they are. They are Not, and I repeat not, retro 60s.

As for traveling, most of us out here in the East travel pretty far (like at least 100 miles) to race.

[HarV Wallbanger III]

Thanks Mike.

[Mopar Rob]

You are missing he point. If local raceways want to run the FX or S7 fine. Go for it.
As for traveling, most of us out here in the East travel pretty far (like at least 100 miles) to race.

I thought that was what I said?


Local programs can run them because for the most part its the local track rules. Most of those racers will never attend a big race

[Noose]

OK..that's fine. I seriously doubt though that local programs would try to establish a class using these when there are so many others.

[Mopar Rob]

I doubt they will establish a new class, it will just be Can-Am.

I was getting at if you have a local track in the middle of nowhere and your racers want to race retro the track owner will just pick a racing organization rules and make exceptions for things they can sell or use to grow thier program. No different than saying Falcon 7's are the only motor to be used at the track for the class or OS and JK bodies only from the body selection because they are easier to obtain from thier distributor.

Most of those racers will probably never attend the R4, Sano, Checkpoint Cup or whatever

[Noose]

OK..let's take a look.

Mosetti Eurosport




Slick 7 Retro



I rest my case

[The Bugman]

the blog above says it all,
i agree with you Mr.Noose 100%

[Phil Irvin]

The JK kit was pretty much the same as a Warmack.

Wonder how popular ANY of these kits would be if the front pillow blocks, or 'bent-up' pieces of brass were eliminated...
LM

The motor mount and the front 'wing' is why I bought the JK hypiod kit. I did not like the way the .073 rails "felt" so I changed to a 2 rail, .062 & .055. I liked it better. The second was a hypoid JK motor mount , 2 rail with piano wire front uprights & single .062 front center plate with a S7 steel guide soldered on & .032 hinged bat wings and I really like the way it handles. I took the JK front wing and cut the bat wings off and made it a plumber style. I liked it much better than original. I got hit and bent a wing so I redid it into a hinged .250 X .062 X 3.250 with .062 piano wire extended wing that makes a 109 G. car that I REALLY like the handling and is faster than the other setup.

The JK setup was a nobrainer cause I didn't have a nibbler & wanted a fast builder. I have revamped the JK setup 3 times and now all I want is the motor mount..hypoid.....Maybe the front wing....

OLPHART
PHIL I.