371 replies to this topic

[Rick]

Your right, Democracy never works ! Dictatorships are much better for all. Just ask the Chinese! Isn't it the racers that make up the group that races ? Just because one group fails, does not mean that asking for what the majority wants is a bad thing is it ? Philippe, you are right , D3 was set up for a select group, and no one disputes it. Just as IRRA wishes to police itself, D3 has the right to as well. But without manufacturers , the hobby dies a slow death. P.S. 1/32 is still 100 times bigger and much more profitable for the manufacturers.

Mill,
With all due respect. You are looking at it from the wrong side of the counter, manufacturers are the reason slot cars are in a coma, right now.......................


Long live K&S!!

[redbackspyder]

Mill

Racers need someone to protect them from themselves... trust me.

LM

To quote someone very esteemed in the D3 community, " Why is it, if we are just racing for fun, that the minute it is called a RACE, people completely change attitude, and will do anything to win ". D3 and the IRRA operate as separate entities, but would it not have been grand if they both could have agreed to rules on common ground. One nation, under Super D3, all singing together.......

[Mopar Rob]

Mill,
With all due respect. You are looking at it from the wrong side of the counter, manufacturers are the reason slot cars are in a coma, right now.......................

I disagree. Larry hit part of the nail on the head with racers voting. People will vote on something without any forethought about what the class could evolve into with the passing or discarding of a rule. I'm sure the IRRA motor bracket rule was changed so someone could cut up a womp or FCR chassis to use a base starting point. Gary from Backtrack then started making and selling his 3 piece bracket because it was within the rules. Now we have S7 intepertaion.........

I think the other part is poorly written, interperted, or enforced rules.

look at the USRA GT1 wing issue. JK adds a wing to the majority of his bodies. They like it and add deminsions for thier rules. It then is interperted by the manufactures, rules commitee......and then one body manufacture inteperts the rules differently to give his body an advantage.

The way it should be, is the sactioning body designs the wing, has a mold maker make it, sells it to the manufactures at a resonable price, and says "put this wing on in this location if you want your body to be legal"

[Rick]

I disagree. Larry hit part of the nail on the head with racers voting. I think the other part is poorly written, interperted, or enforced rules.

look at the USRA GT1 wing issue. JK adds a wing to the majority of his bodies. They like it and add deminsions for thier rules. It then is interperted by the manufactures, rules commitee......and then one body manufacture inteperts the rules differently to give his body an advantage.

The way it should be, is the sactioning body designs the wing, has a mold maker make it, sells it to the manufactures at a resonable price, and says "put this wing on in this location if you want your body to be legal"

TY Rob, you proved my point. The tail wagging the dog.

But it's only an advantage if you are the only one having it, next week, everyone has it and its back to even again. Just we had to buy a new body or motor or armature or set of magnets or set-up.

[MSwiss]

Personally I am very interested in what Dennis Samson and Mike Swiss`s opinion are. They are the chairs in IRRA for chassis construction, and components. Their experience and thoughts could lay the path for retros future. No pressure

Somewhere there is a IRRA statement in the works that will address the 2 new chassis from FX & S7.
FWIW, only one has been submitted to Dennis & myself, the FX.
I'll reserve comment until after that statement has been posted.

[Mopar Rob]

The way it should be, is the sactioning body designs the wing, has a mold maker make it, sells it to the manufactures at a resonable price, and says "put this wing on in this location if you want your body to be legal"

But if you do this you wont have the continue purchase for the advantage of the week. We had a series in Chicago where only the JK was legal. I think the was something like 20 bodies to choose from. We would see fields full of all different bodies, because they were all equal.

[jimht]

This thread has gotten boringly long, so I'll add to it...no sense stopping now.

The need for kits is undeniable. Without kits there will be fewer beginners.

The rules makers may need to clarify chassis design with respect to kits:
perhaps requiring separate components connected by piano wire, for instance.

Other than that I see much here of the same attitude that has stagnated USRA:
Everyone has their own little niche & they're stuck in it.

"I've got too much invested in what I'm doing & I've paid my dues.
It's not right that a beginner can just show up & go fast."

Of course it is OK for the beginner to buy a car for several hundred bucks.
Wish I had bunches of beginners like that coming through my doors.
To get me or any other Raceway to promote Retro, there has to be a product to sell that isn't just a blank instruction sheet & a pile of K & S stuff.

& while we're discussing Retro & what it really is, can we do something about this racer-driven fetish to run only Ti22's, please?

[Noose]

I have made a post for the IRRA. Sorry it is not shown as IRRA but I couldn't get on that login.

IRRA Q&A

[gascarnut]

Somewhere there is a IRRA statement in the works that will address the 2 new chassis from FX & S7.
FWIW, only one has been submitted to Dennis & myself, the FX.
I'll reserve comment until after that statement has been posted.

The FX components were submitted to Mike.

Nothing was submitted to me by FX, as they apparently have no plans to market a RTR frame.

[Larry Mattingly]

To quote someone very esteemed in the D3 community, " Why is it, if we are just racing for fun, that the minute it is called a RACE, people completely change attitude, and will do anything to win ". D3 and the IRRA operate as separate entities, but would it not have been grand if they both could have agreed to rules on common ground. One nation, under Super D3, all singing together.......

Depending on which side you are on, story has it D3 was not 'interested' in a compromise set of rules encompasing the various retro groups. Thus, IRRA was formed.

LM

[MSwiss]

The FX components were submitted to Mike.

Nothing was submitted to me by FX, as they apparently have no plans to market a RTR frame.

Sorry Dennis,
I worded my post poorly. My point was that neither of us had received the S7.

[Rick]

It appears the chassis kit was SOLD in the Swap Shop...

[MSwiss]

Now that this has reached an 8th page, before it get's buried too deep, back on page 7,
Noose made a post for the IRRA on the up to date status on this matter:

IRRA Q&A

[Zippity]

Now that this has reached an 8th page, before it get's buried too deep, back on page 7,

Only 4 pages show on my browser.

Guess your settings are 'up the creek'

My Controls/Options/Board Settings/Number of posts to show for each topic page/40

[Tim Neja]

"The need for kits is undeniable. Without kits there will be fewer beginners." Absolutely not true.

The existing kits are fine. The S7 takes it TOO FAR! It does not require any building. And D3 has seen a LOT of newcomers. I never built a chassis in my life until 2 years ago and the Warmack kit got me started. Since--I've built over 45 cars for ALL the D3 class's. Most are still being raced by myself and many others. There are MANY new builders at BPR now-- it's the difference from "flexi" to building. Newbies can start in Flexi cars if building is intimidating. Then move into learning how to build with JK or Warmack kits. No reason to take the "kit" level any further. Once they've tried those--scratchbuilding is a logical next step.

MOST of the guys that are for the S7 chassis--are NOT builders. So I understand their interest--like Mill, who does not build any of his cars. Warmack or PDL do.

There's plenty of D3 class's now-- and they are working great--don't change them. And the manufacturer's have certainly benefited from all these class's. So have the racetracks. Let's not screw up the best thing to come into slot racing in the last 10 years.

FWIW
Tim

[Basil]

I just read Nooses post in the IRRA section and was very happy to see IRRA board voted that the FX chassis is not designed in the spirit and intent of retro racing.So it will not be legal,you guys got it right.The Slick 7 has not been submitted yet,but I would imagine the outcome will be the same.Congradulations IRRA board.

[Tim Neja]

Most excellent decision!!! Stay the course-- keep the builders building!! Congratulations.
T

[Rick]

HATS off to the IRRA BOD..........

[Bill from NH]

Only 4 pages show on my browser.
Guess your settings are 'up the creek'
My Controls/Options/Board Settings/Number of posts to show for each topic page/40

Ron, the forum default value is 20 posts per page. However this can be user changed from 5 to 40 in multiples of 5.

[jimht]

"The need for kits is undeniable. Without kits there will be fewer beginners." Absolutely not true.

It's true where I am.
Please don't assume that what's working where you are will work everywhere.
My experience is that programs with good participation are always fueled by a diehard fanatical Raceway Owner or comparable customers or a combination of the two.
The higher the entry level bar, the fewer participants.
Kits of any kind make beginning less intimidating.
You can quibble about the spirituality of a particular kit if you wish, but don't try to explain to me about what gets & keeps racers involved.
I've spent quite a bit of money figuring that one out.

Regarding the "DECISION", hey whatever, I'll buy what I want & sell it to whomever I please.
Personally, I think the most correct thing that has been done with this whole program is serious motor controls, & the IRRA hasn't got that one quite right yet.

[Justin A. Porter]

Well, if the FX kit was similar to the Slick 7 kit, and has not been allowed - which implies that the Slick 7 kit will also not be allowed - then I must say that I am disappointed in the IRRA.

There's a lot of crowing about "the spirit of the 60's" but what about the spirit of innovation? I thought that the reason scratch-building was such a trumpeted concept was because of the desire to prove the merit of each builder's own design? Just out build the mass-produced piece.

Quite honestly, I'd like a detailed explanation of exactly what components go against this fabled "spirit" so that I can avoid building them into my own cars, because I'll tell you guys straightaway that in trying to build a fast retro car myself I've been copying ideas (and lifting pans) from my Dad's brass GT12, International 15, and Group 20 cars that he no longer races.

[redbackspyder]

Most excellent decision!!! Stay the course-- keep the builders building!! Congratulations.
T

Tim, let's swap some paint, and not go home to walk the dog. Try racin' , Mill, 2nd TQ at the Checkpoint Cup Coupe race. 6th, A Main Can-am. Sorry, I do not build to your standards, but at least I support D3 and race,marshall, and volunteer. Wait a minute, didn't you say that the Warmack kit got you into all this !!!! Also, Tim, read my earlier post # 42 where I said I was glad they would not let the Slick 7 kit into D3 as it stands, because it is not in the spirit. Guess you forgot what I wrote. I do applaud manufacturers for coming out with new products to help our hobby, whether they find their own class or enter an existing class. I try to keep an open mind, not tunnel vision. Raceways do not make their profits selling track time Tim, just ask the majority of track owners on this blog. They keep the doors open selling parts, having racing programs, and promoting growth. Do you think Lewis Hamilton turns wrenches on his McLaren ? Do you think Sebastian Bourdais works in an autoclave to make carbon fiber bodies ? But they still race. If the hobby stays the same , it grows stagnant. If
D3 is left only to pimp itself, eventually it to will die off. Inventors like John Sinz and Ken Dylkie keep things moving into new directions, and without the Warmack's and Jerry Kulich's there would not be the advancement that D3 has shown. After All, Warmack inspired you to build, but I forgave him for that long ago

[Joe Mig]

Congrats to the IRRA board on a excellent decision !
If S7 wanted to get involved in Retro it would have been nice if they came up with some in line gears in ether 48 or 64 pitch 3/32 .
Then they would have looked like heros and sold a lot of gears.

[Mopar Rob]

Personally, I don't see how the FX is any more or less offensive than a JK or Warmak? It has a pinned guide tounge like the Warmack, you have to bend a U shaped wire like both, it uses a one piece 3 sided bracket from another manufacture. The only difference that I can see is the front uprights have to be soldered in where the JK & Warmack are bent.


The S7 is a brass eurosport chassis

[Noose]

There's a lot of crowing about "the spirit of the 60's" but what about the spirit of innovation? I thought that the reason scratch-building was such a trumpeted concept was because of the desire to prove the merit of each builder's own design? Just out build the mass-produced piece.

Let me preface this by saying this is my response and do not take it as that of the board's.

Just take one look at the chassis built by Tony P, Steube, Samson, Bruce, Warmack, Anderson, Gorksi and many others and you will see lots of innovation that is still within the spirit of the scratchbuilt chassis on which retro racing was founded. Snap together kits with pillow blocks require nothing except a soldering iron. Real scratchbuilding requires at least a dremel too. Some can be built without a jig but it helps.

The Warmack and JK "kits" come with pieces that can allow one to make a chassis in the true spirit of what retro racing was about. R-Geo's kits affordyou the same opportunity. Some may argue that the bent up front ends are no different than pillow blocks. To me, they are quite different. Some of the early chassis built in D3 that got us all started had these and they were hand bent. Some may say well a separate 3 piece bracket was allowed before. Well, it really wasn't as the bracket was made in 3 pieces but sold as one unit and put together by the maker. It's a mute point as they are no longer made.

While looking at the classes of chassis for ideas that you mentioned is useful, it does not mean that making a copy of those is what was intended for or would be allowed in this type of racing.

Everyone is free to buy what they want and build what they want. I'll probably get one of those S7 chassis to play with for some regular old slot racing fun. I just won't use it in retro racing. Retro racing is not about growing the designs where we replicate the history of slot racing, it's about replicating the spirit of scratchbuilding and the cars of the times.

As has been said by many others, the FX and S7 will find a home perhaps in another class, or in another organization. People will buy them and make cars from them. They will buy parts. It's all good for slot racing and no different than those that buy other types of slot cars and parts.

Some may think retro is stifling. Well, not to me or the many guys that come to run these wonderful cars, get together with friends and have a good time.