371 replies to this topic

[Hworth08]

Wonder what the reaction would have been if JK had been first to introduce an EDM cut kit? I was disheartened when the Warmack and then JK's stamped frame was so warmly greeted. Now another manufacturer has what appears to be an easier frame to build and some are stating intentions to quit. Strange...

[tonyp]

When I have to build a snap together toy chassis to race I'll find something else to do. I am with you 100% Mike.

[Larry Mattingly]

You will never know, because the JK 'kit' wasn't EDM...

My guess is you would have had the same outcry. The S7 and FX kits raise the technology bar quite a bit. Retro does NOT need technology.

The JK kit was pretty much the same as a Warmack.

Wonder how popular ANY of these kits would be if the front pillow blocks, or 'bent-up' pieces of brass were eliminated...

LM

[John Streisguth]

Wonder what the reaction would have been if JK had been first to introduce an EDM cut kit? I was disheartened when the Warmack and then JK's stamped frame was so warmly greeted. Now another manufacturer has what appears to be an easier frame to build and some are stating intentions to quit. Strange...

Personally, when I see race reports and see so many cars built on the kits, I think it's something that should not have been allowed in the first place. Since the Warmack kits are no longer available, maybe the JK kit needs to be relegated to just being a JK spec class. If you want to use the kit as a basis, then only a certain percentage can be used. Tough call on something already in play, but that doesn't mean the door should be open for "further improvement". The people who are actually racing this type of car as well as those running the organizations should have the say it was is and isn;t allowed.

[redbackspyder]

If all the parts were cut apart and sold separately which one would be illegal? If so ban that part.

All the guys that are complaining that a racer looked at the rules, looked at what might be improved and made a chassis to fit the rules. So what were all you guys doing back in the 60's. Seems like I remember buying parts with racer's names on the packaging, sometimes even assembeld frames...

I think Retro has now surpassed USRA for whining. I'm sure all the arguments are heart felt, not guys wanting to stack the rules in their favor. Now go play Glory Days as your sound track.

Very good points Mike, and you are right that in Retro many have curved, bent or flexed the rules looking for that edge. Just as was done in the day. Just because someone did not think of it prior, is it inherently wrong ? Philippe tried to bend the rules with his Frankenmotor because he thought that it might fit the letter of the rules, and Didn't he say that any lawyer would defend that he was right ? How else would retro chassis advanced to the level that they now have ? Can you legislate against advancing thought and technology ? Or is it the powers that be that can control where it stops and starts ? Makes you think , Don't it ?

[Hworth08]

OK, if the Slick 7 frame is accepted, will JK not release an EDM cut frame. JK also sells many quality EDM frames.

Tony, I can "feel your pain" to state a former president. Both IRRA and D3 shot past the pre-anglewinder frames in a heartbeat. And now some of the racers want to throw on the brakes when a new form of old techonology is introduced.

[redbackspyder]

You will never know, because the JK 'kit' wasn't EDM...

My guess is you would have had the same outcry. The S7 and FX kits raise the technology bar quite a bit. Retro does NOT need technology.

The JK kit was pretty much the same as a Warmack.

Wonder how popular ANY of these kits would be if the front pillow blocks, or 'bent-up' pieces of brass were eliminated...

LM

Larry, I am not saying that I disagree with you, but if Retro doesn't need technology, why do people pursue the newest guide flag, the newest rubber, the newest gears, advanced controllers (some with Telemetry ), lighter parts, lighter lead wire . . . . ... There is no real RETRO because everything is made with what is available TODAY, and we are just trying to recapture the FLAVOR of what racing was like back in the day. Just as in Vintage Auto Racing, where safety items are allowed and many upgrades that were never available in the day , and Philippe you know I am right on this. Example, there are more McLaren M8's today than ever before, and almost all are allowed to race as "Vintage"

[Craig]

As for the complete kits I too agree there is no room for them in a true "scratchbuilt " class such as D3 and IRRA. However, what I do see the need for is possibly limiting the EDM, laser cut and water jet produced parts to nose pieces only. As a builder I have robbed/recycled all of my old chassis from the past and utilized these parts to create my "scratchbuilt" chassis. I'd like to see more companies making nose pieces to make the build just a little simpler. Yes, we can hand cut everything from scratch to create period correct brass and wire chassis as I have been doing since last March (my return to slot racing) but if we limit the above mentioned mass produced parts we can stay within the spirit of the founding intentions of these two racing organizations.

On another note....I am guilty of using these kits as well but, for the most part I am cutting these kits up to make nose pieces and trashing the pans for the majority of my builds. With this in mind, making the main rails from wire, hinges from raw tubing and all the reamining static bracing and hand cut pans I believe my builds are still within the spirit and the scope that Mike and Paul had in mind when they started our west coast D3 class. I am all for innovation but, we all need to take a deep breath and really think about what direction we want things to go and have fun doing it. For me, the majority of this fun is digging in and building something that mixes up the gray matter between my ears. Creating something mostly from "scratch" and being proud of my accomplishment.

Folks, this post was not to step on anyone's toes, disrespect anyone, make light of what is available from the slotcar manufacturing community but is just some thoughts on how this builder/racer is seeing overall in the Retro community. I think if we keep things in the current state we will continue to grow and this type of racing will be around for quite some time. Lets all really put our heads together and come to an agreement on how we can accommodate everyone involved in our great hobby.

Thank you for your time,

Craig

[Ron Hershman]

The above is not correct. Kemtron sold 1000s of brass frames for the earliest motors. Probably water cut, the frames have a few "teeth'. That lends a lot of support for allowing the Slick 7 frame.

Times like this are tough for the BOD! What grounds exist to ban one kit after allowing others? EDM frames are almost self-aligning, the JK kit requires extra bending or cutting of the main hoop to even solder on the motor bracket. Which is easier for a first-time builder to assemble? Ron is concerned that the Slick 7 frame will begin the end of the series. Ron was using a Warmack kit at the R4 warm-up.

I see nothing magic about the Slick 7 frame. The prototype isn't even using using floating pin tubes. Nothing a person can not build with a dremel and patiences.

Maybe the BOD should consider changing the bodies to Trans-Am bodies instead on Can-Am bodies? The Can-Ams were a technology based series.

Some here have no clue....not directed at you Don

Anytime you have chassis with flat rails it will prove to be of superior performance over round wire or brass chassis.

This has been proven time and time again in the past.

In 1998, when I and my company introduced the spring steel "FLAT RAIL" chassis to the USRA GT-12 class, Lee Gilbert at the time claimed there was NO WAY a chassis like that would be better than a brass and round wire chassis. The chassis not only won the race but dominated the top 2 places and 6 out of 8 in the main were these new chassis. NO ONE after that ran a brass and round wire chassis in GT-12.....they were not competitive any longer.

The same thing happened in Box Stock 12..... when the spring steel flat rail chassis were introduced..... the brass and wire chassis sat in the boxes and on the raceway shelves.

There were not better because they were steel versus brass. They were better due to the different flexing that flat rails have over round rails.

Look at what flat rail centers did to racing in the early and mid 70's. Again.... no one ran wire rails.

Flat rail chassis in Retro will obsolete every round wire car out there. Believe me........ I have seen enough cases in the past to prove any different.

When one or two of these flat rail chassis are allowed..... get used to the new chassis "of the month" club and be expected to spend lots of money to be competitive and keep up with the latest and greatest.

While these new kits might require piano wire rails..... the kits that follow will be 3, 4, 5 flat rail designs and no piano wire required. And they will be better and faster while looking less and less RETRO to what was raced in the 60's.

I think if some of you want the bodies to be painted as to what was run in the 60's, then I would like to think you would have the same thoughts when it comes to chassis.

And while some of you may knock the Warmack and JK kits..... they still require round piano wire rails to hold the front and back halves of the cars together and that is the same as it was in the 60's and with one piece, non soldered together motor brackets.

[John Streisguth]

Larry, I am not saying that I disagree with you, but if Retro doesn't need technology, why do people pursue the newest guide flag, the newest rubber, the newest gears, advanced controllers (some with Telemetry ), lighter parts, lighter lead wire . . . . ... There is no real RETRO because everything is made with what is available TODAY, and we are just trying to recapture the FLAVOR of what racing was like back in the day. Just as in Vintage Auto Racing, where safety items are allowed and many upgrades that were never available in the day , and Philippe you know I am right on this. Example, there are more McLaren M8's today than ever before, and almost all are allowed to race as "Vintage"

Exactly, it's the "spririt" or "flavor" of the 60's, and the classes were created as a vehicle for scratch-built chassis. It's never possible to rewind the clock and make it exactly the same, although Mike Steube is trying to do that as much as possible and for that I applaud him. But many of us got into this class for the express purpose of building our own chassis, trying new ideas, making those incremental improvements, all within the parameters laid down in the rules. The Slick 7 chassis goes in the opposite direction.

[Ron Hershman]

OK, if the Slick 7 frame is accepted, will JK not release an EDM cut frame. JK also sells many quality EDM frames.

Ummmmm, errrrr sure JK will. It will be designed by Horky and probably sell for about 300.00. Just the same as JK has had Horky do for Euro-chassis kits etc.

I am taking pre-orders..... how many do any of you want?

[idare2bdul]

I'm not against a pure retro class. I told the powers that be in the beginning that in time modern designs would come into play. Look at Paul Sterretts early chassis designs that mimicked JK flexi designs of the lat 90's. In D3 the divergance from retro started early. I ran a chassis as did others that was looking a lot like a tripod wing car chassis in a king track race, it was D3 legal.

[John Streisguth]

Modern designs are one thing. Modern construction practices are another. If someone can bend wire and cut brass to copy a stamped design, my hat's off to them, just as long as they had to do the work themselves.

[team burrito]

I have to say the Slick 7 has gone beyond what the rules intended & should not be allowed. The Warmack & JK chassis are right on the design edge of where D3 & retro racing should be. IMHO, of course.

My euro-retro design was just an experiment to see how far I could push the envelope. In the end, it didn't work very good, but it was built to the rules. The "spirit" is another issue I'll have to deal with.

[Mark Wampler]

IMHO... Freeze 'kit' chassis technology at the Warmack/JK levels. If you want to run 'Inline Eurosport', form your own organization.

LM

We can agree on that

If manufacturers can come up with a product to enhance/attract/promote slot racing of ANY kind, then I'm sold on it. So let's at least be supportive of this new chassis even if it doesn't fit inside Retro/D3/ IRRA. Whatever "slot" it can find itself within.

I sure can't begrudge Slick 7 for taking a stab at it. The small venue of slot racing overall is a tough sell. Unless EuroSport or other interested parties/franchises can pick up the ball, it isn't looking too good

[Don Weaver]

Does anyone have pictures of the new FX Retro chassis? Is it a brass flexi design??

Don Weaver

[Ron Hershman]

Does anyone have pictures of the new FX Retro chassis? Is it a brass flexi design??

Don Weaver

See post # 9 in this thread Don

[TSR]

Philippe tried to bend the rules with his Frankenmotor because he thought that it might fit the letter of the rules, and Didn't he say that any lawyer would defend that he was right ?

Mill, this is not what happened. Otherwise I would have claimed the win in that race. I never did.

[gascarnut]

Anytime you have chassis with flat rails it will prove to be of superior performance over round wire or brass chassis.

I am confused - how is this kit a "flat rail" design?

It seems clear to me that just like the Warmack and the JK, two pieces of wire of your choice of diameter are needed to join the front to the rear.

That's what the photo of the assembled frame shows.........

[redbackspyder]

Mill, this is not what happened. Otherwise I would have claimed the win in that race. I never did.

Did you not say that technically the motor was legitimate ? And that you could defend it as being legal as per the rules ? Maybe I mis read or mis heard ?

[Larry Mattingly]

When Rick Bennardo called me a year ago and said: "Hey, they're racing slot cars like the ones you used to as kid... want to get involved?"

The answer was: "You bet"...

Much to my disappointment, the retro cars of today were not like the cars of the '60's. But, it was still better than nothing, or what we had been racing.

I saw almost instantly that it was going to be very hard to keep technology out of the picture. As Rick is fond of saying... "It is hard to 'unlearn' what has happened over the last 40-years"...

Which brings me to my point: PLEASE...freeze technology where it is at presently. CLEARLY define, as Ron did above, what constitutes a 'Retro' chassis. These cars DO NOT need to go faster, or handle better. They are fine in their present configuration. Retro does not need to be a techno class, where one-month-old cars are obsolete.

I pointed out this same theory nine-months ago, and was labled a 'doom and gloomer' by many (Yeah Dave... another 'hafe (sic) baked' idea). I stated then, and I state now, Retro chassis guidelines need(ed) to be clearly defined.

It can still be accomplished. Only now, some feelings are going to be hurt.

I think you will NOW see both D3 and IRRA take action. Hopefully.

Truthfully, I'm climbing on the Mike Steube bandwagon. A return to 'true' 1966 technology is looking better and better by the moment. They may be 'heaps' to drive, but they will be 'pure' retro.

LM

[idare2bdul]

I like Warmack but if most other people had shown up with a F1 car, the front wings under the axle posing as scale chassis pieces they would have been reminded of the maximum width rule. The piece was clearly structural and boy did it work.

The wide rear motor bracket on Paul Sterrett's car in the Kingleman race Nov 8 2008 is clearly visible in this picture.

Paul's early D3 chassis were almost JK flexi clones.

What I'm looking at in the Slick 7 chassis is brass and piano wire. HMMM they just put several of the design elements together that other racers have used.

For the serious D3 traditionalist add Jaildoor to replace the anglewinder coupe class that hasn't caught on.

[Ron Hershman]

I am confused - how is this kit a "flat rail" design?

It seems clear to me that just like the Warmack and the JK, two pieces of wire of your choice of diameter are needed to join the front to the rear.

That's what the photo of the assembled frame shows.........

Build one with out the wire outer rails.... it will be a bit flexi, but held together with the center rail. Well at least the S-7 will.

Take a look at the Center rail. The next chassis guy will go to the outside rails being flat.... the ball will never stop rolling.

[Tim Neja]

One thing D3 and IRRA have done is create "Builders" class's that have re-stimulated the creative juices of the guys that love BUILDING!! The original Warmack kit was really done as a "helper" to guys to get them building. It wasn't made to replace scratch building-- but to stimulate it. And it WORKED!!
The new Slick 7 chassis would eliminate building as it's a performance leap with EDM laser cut parts and new design that requires NO building. Just assembling like a "flexi" chassis or GT-12/Euro. There's certainly nothing wrong with that---but why not create a seperate class for it instead of destroying D3 Can Am???
What has been soo fun in D3--hasn't been the quest for FASTER and BETTER---but TSR motors with EQUAL horsepower-- and consistantly good cars that from week to week, you can race door handle to door handle with your friends and buddies!! Brian Warmack has proved several times by bringing back cars he built a year ago or more--to WIN with again recently. The builders have expanded to where now at BPR we probably have 30 guys building cars for D3!!
That's what I hope we don't want to stop----keep the fun of building our little cars and racing each other!!
Create a new "EDM" class or even steel stamped chassis class if you want--- but don't let "Technology" ruin D3!! Even NASCAR legislates against technology all the time in the interest of creating even racing and controlling costs. No different here.
FWIW
Tim

[Mark Wampler]

For the serious D3 traditionalist add Jaildoor to replace the anglewinder coupe class that hasn't caught on.

Hey Mike, I'll challenge you on that. Anglewinders do rock. I for one have been developing my own with some good initial results.
No doubt that Retro NASCAR is becoming more popular, D3 coupes are a perfect companion to run in its own class with NASCAR's on race day