371 replies to this topic

[redbackspyder]

Well said Basil--I agree 100% with you, Matt Bruce and Larry M. on this one!!! The BOD needs to put a stop to this type of design now!!! I know people don't like to see comparisons to 1/1 racing but there must be a reason they still use carburetors in NASCAR!!!! We can't let the manufacturers start dictating whats to the letter of the rules. IMHO this kit needs to not be approved!!!

NASCAR IS NOTHING BUT AN IROC RACE WITH THE PAINT JOBS SUPPORTING ROLLING BILLBOARDS . AND I LIKE NASCAR. BUT WITHOUT THE PAINT JOBS, ALL CARS ARE TEMPLATES AND THE SAME. I AGREE THE KIT SHOULD RUN IN IT'S OWN CLASS. NEXT, THEY WILL BAN FLEXI RACING ALTOGETHER!

[brnursebmt]

I can't understand why someone would go to the expense of design and production of a chassis is it has not been approved? A company would stand to lose quit a bit of money. Has this chassis already been approved?

And Jay....I agree 100% with your last post.

[redbackspyder]

Nobody has yet answered the question of why a stamped and formed (i.e. brass flexi) chassis like the JK is OK while a chassis cut from a flat sheet of brass, that has to be completely assembled and soldered together, and which totally meets the rules is not. I say if you ban one kit than you HAVE to ban all the kits. There is simply no fundamental difference between a stamped and formed car and a cut (EDM'd) one.

Jay, to be fair, there was No One in 1966 to 1969 using laser cutter, water jet cutters, computer aided cutting machines or anything like that at any commercial raceway or business involved. Philippe speaks of the "Spirit of D3 " and as long as there is this so called indefinable spirit, then they Can Ban anything they wish. Why not run laser cut Kevlar re-inforced carbon fiber chassis ? Why should brass be the determining factor ? Why not laser cut sheet piano wire ? The point is they want to draw a line, and D3 has a right, just like IRRA has a right or whomever. Why not start a whole new class to accomodate these chassis ? They banned Bryan Warmack's double engined cars when they clearly did not violate any D3 rules, and there were dual engined cars a plenty in the 60's. Bryan just built a better mouse trap, just like Jim Hall and the 2J sucker car that was banned because no one could afford to keep up technology wise. Even McLaren And Shelby admitted that he broke no rule, but the competition would have had to spend prohibitive money to keep up. Same kind of diffference here, build it too well, it will be banned. Democracy at it's finest, based on the carcass of better technology.

[Mark Wampler]

I can appreciate sincere efforts to attract racers into the retro scene. There is already ongoing JK spec racing with some measurable results. Possibly a "kit" class would be a better fit for this chassis. I'm just not sure there is enough draw overall to support spec racing of this kind. It would have to be spec racing. I don't see anyway that D3 is going to allow this, IMO

What happened with Warmack and JK kits was a boost to get retro going in greater numbers. I think that purpose has been fulfilled. I'm sure a lot of racers are feeling the slippery slope of these more advanced factory made kits that will severely dilute the pureness of scratch building. The JK and Warmack kits have provided flexibility with radical ways to change thier characteristics and handling style as where this kit appears to be designed for only for one product and dimension with little means to vary, adjust or otherwise tune the chassis.

[Ron Hershman]

Nobody has yet answered the question of why a stamped and formed (i.e. brass flexi) chassis like the JK is OK while a chassis cut from a flat sheet of brass, that has to be completely assembled and soldered together, and which totally meets the rules is not. I say if you ban one kit than you HAVE to ban all the kits. There is simply no fundamental difference between a stamped and formed car and a cut (EDM'd) one.

Maybe because the kits you mention require ROUND piano rails ( main and center ) to hold the chassis together like the chassis of the 60's did.

There were NO flat rail ( center and main ) brass chassis ran or raced in the 60's. Or chassis where the center rail held the front and back halves of the chassis together as one continuous piece.

Maybe "ground" ( where they took round wire and ground it to make it flat ) piano wire were.

Flat rail ( Center section ) chassis came with the anglewinder chassis of the 70's. There was nothing 60's about those.

No need to ban anything that's currently allowed right now......... those are not the issue.

The new stuff is the issue and the ORG's can be just like Nascar or any other rule ORG and change rules to keep things as they were intended and/or competitor friendly for whatever reasons the ORG's decide.

[Ron Hershman]

I can't understand why someone would go to the expense of design and production of a chassis is it has not been approved? A company would stand to lose quit a bit of money. Has this chassis already been approved?

Not been submitted yet that I know of. Once submitted, the ORG can suggest necessary changes to be made. It will then be up to the MFG to decide if he wants to do it to meet the ORG's requirements.

No different from what other MFG's have had to do with other products in the past.

Remember...... the ORG's just threw out "Speed Rubber" tires...... the same can be done and has been done with chassis/kits, bodies, motors, etc.

[Ron Hershman]

Jay, to be fair, there was No One in 1966 to 1969 using laser cutter, water jet cutters, computer aided cutting machines or anything like that at any commercial raceway or business involved. Philippe speaks of the "Spirit of D3 " and as long as there is this so called indefinable spirit, then they Can Ban anything they wish.

Well the water jet deal got thrown out when the water jet cut Warmack kits were allowed. I have no problem in using lazer, or EDM processes for cutting of parts either.

See my above post about what was run in the 60's and 70's when it came to chassis.

[Mark Wampler]

I would hope that this chassis can find a place in slot racing somewhere. Its all good if more racers get involved. If it has a draw, then so be it. Since there are JK spec racing events being held, then why not consider this chassis to be included to run with JK's? If I was running spec kits and this one was approved, I'd be finding ways to keep up and try to beat the JK. There might be a silver lining.

[idare2bdul]

Rudy Garriga is a good person and a friend. I really enjoy D3 and retro racing and have promoted it as much as I could for the past 3 years. But if this chassis is ever approved for D3 racing (I have no say in other organizations), then I will quit the hobby for good.
It goes the same in fact for ANY kit, not only the Slick 7.

D3 and subsequent retro racing organizations had for purpose to let the racers BUILD their chassis. It was and is the BASIC philosophy of D3. Bryan Warmack who is an incredibly intelligent person pushed the envelope a bit with his cars, then built his kits not for profit (actually at a loss) but only to get more people in the hobby and give them a tool to begin with. However, the basic design was still relatively acceptable in spite of its more modern features. We at D3 should have put a stop to it right there and then. The mistake was to accept this kit and then the JK, and it is hard to shut the lid once the Pandora box has been opened. Bryan himself has ceased to produced his kit.

I agree 100% with Matt Bruce and others who are of the same opinion: the Slick 7 kit is simply NOT in the spirit of retro racing, even if to the letter.
For a raceway owner, it means more sales and profit, but for retro racing, I can see it as the beginning of the end.

When this class started I asked why we didn't limit it to recreations of vintage chassis designs? There were several answers but all said there was no need to. So far this chassis is turning similar times to Warmack based cars. I've seen times almost a tenth faster from other cars. It's not God's gift to chassis design. It's built with all legal materials. If it was cut up in individual parts and came with a Buena Park Bracket I'd have a hard time explaining why it would be illegal. As for the guys that want to quit instead of building something to beat it, that's your right. At this point I don't think PDL is building his own chassis anyway and I know I haven't been. I'd be tempted to put one of these chassis together, maybe try a modification or two. Maybe some of you should go play that old Rickey Nelson song, Garden Party.

So here we are with vintage racing where at least on the West Coast we neuter the horsepower with FK's and now we want to limit chassis creativity too. We actually encouraged chassis creativity in the beginning of this class! My guess if Steube or TonyP rolled to the line with one of these made entirely from scratch it would be legal. The fact that it is a kit is the issue. Maybe it is time to change the rules but if you do don't kid yourself that Steube, Mike Morrisey and others would be still building the same chassis they built in 66 today if they had been racing all those years.

[brnursebmt]

The more I look at this chassis the more I see that you can do with it....just like the other kits. Many different variations could come from it. I think I want one and cut some floppies into it. As John Force would say, It's a sexy looking car!

[Slotgeezer]

This is one time ( of many, really...) I agree w/ Mr. Boemker...

This chassis won't get anyone any closer to an "A" main podium...

You still have to drive it, for 24 minutes, w/ 7 other geniuses on the track...

Now ... RUDY !!! .... Make this thing into an anglewinder, & I'll buy one in a HEARTBEAT, for RetroPro !!!

Thanks, guys.... & good racing !!!


Jeff Easterly

[911GT3]

Looking at the picture, the chassis looks like it would meet the IRRA rules. But then again, I am no expert. So if someone showed up with a hand cut chassis like this would it be illegal?

Wasn't there a big hullabullu about the JK chassis?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I have not seen anything in the IRRA rules that specifically state a Can-Am car must have piano wire frame rails. (Looks like it's time for another rules change )

As a customer and a racer, I am asking myself: Is this a quality product at a reasonable price? Will I be able to race this chassis in some class? Is it competitve with what is already being mass produced or hand built?

I would want to try it out to see how it works compared to the other kit(s) on the market.

[Pappy]

Since there are JK spec racing events being held, then why not consider this chassis to be included to run with JK's?

Mark, a while back Hershman suggested a Spec class to the board that would include the Warmack, JK and any other chassis kit that someone else came up with that was approved by the board. The board didn't want anything to do with it. A Spec class would have been the perfect place for these types of chassis. After they dismissed Hershman's idea I emailed Hershman and suggest we start our own Spec class here in the Ohio Valley Retro series. Since Warmack discontinued his chassis and Jerry Kulich agreed to donate prizes for each race we decided to make it a JK Spec class. Hershman wanted to give the board one last chance to make the rules for this class so we did and they did. That is why the JK Spec is considered by the IRRA to be a beginners class. We didn't want it to be a beginners class, just a Spec class. That's why we allow anyone to compete in the class, but only the Rookie's are eligible for the beautiful JK Spec plaque.

[slotcarone]

There is no reason to allow this type of "progress" in Retro racing, We don't need another class and to let this type of chassis design race against what we are currently building would be foolish. In my opinion it serves no purpose and should not be approved.

[Hworth08]

Jay, to be fair, there was No One in 1966 to 1969 using laser cutter, water jet cutters, computer aided cutting machines or anything like that at any commercial raceway or business involved.

The above is not correct. Kemtron sold 1000s of brass frames for the earliest motors. Probably water cut, the frames have a few "teeth'. That lends a lot of support for allowing the Slick 7 frame.

Times like this are tough for the BOD! What grounds exist to ban one kit after allowing others? EDM frames are almost self-aligning, the JK kit requires extra bending or cutting of the main hoop to even solder on the motor bracket. Which is easier for a first-time builder to assemble? Ron is concerned that the Slick 7 frame will begin the end of the series. Ron was using a Warmack kit at the R4 warm-up.

I see nothing magic about the Slick 7 frame. The prototype isn't even using using floating pin tubes. Nothing a person can not build with a dremel and patiences.

Maybe the BOD should consider changing the bodies to Trans-Am bodies instead on Can-Am bodies? The Can-Ams were a technology based series.

[Rick]

Anybody notice a difference? 1966 vs 2008

[Larry Mattingly]

The 'bottom line' is the IRRA and D3 can do ANYTHING they please.

They don't have to justify anything to anyone. Past practice means nothing.

D3 is contolled by one person. IRRA is controlled by five.

If either organization says that 'all' Can-Am cars must be painted yellow, then racers must paint the cars yellow, or not race.

The same principle applies to motors, chassis', tires etc.

Just because a manufacturer releases a product does not make it legal. And, certaintly any organization has the right to set its own standard and rules.

Because D3 and the IRRA permit Warmack and JK chassis' does not mandate that either group MUST permit an EDM frame because it meets the dimensions of the rule book.

For far too long slot racing has been controlled by the manufacturers, who have pushed the attitude that if we make it, you must race it...

Retro has been refreshing. Both groups have put motor specs in place. I applaud Noose and PdL for enforcing body rules, or we would be racing .005 bodies because the manufacturers 'make' them.

Chassis design should be no different.

The term 'Retro' and the mission statements of D3 and the IRRA clearly define what the founders intended.

I really don't give a rats posterior if the latest EDM chassis have a competitive advantage, or not... We are dealing with the foundation of Retro, and what it stands for.

The time to draw the line in the sand is NOW...

IMHO... Freeze 'kit' chassis technology at the Warmack/JK levels. If you want to run 'Inline Eurosport', form your own organization.

LM

[TSR]

D3 is controlled by one person.

Rick, inaccurate statement.

[Larry Mattingly]

P:

My statement, not Rick's...

You have stated tht D3 is 'owned' by one person. That indicates 'control'. No?

I know that the various divisions have 'directors'...

At any rate, does it change the 'meaning' of my message?

LM

[slotcarone]

Larry your post #70 is right on the money---I agree with you on all points!!!

[Mike Steube]

The allowing of kits into D-3 racing was wrong in my opinion. I was stupid enough to cave into the idea that it was necessary to grow D-3. The intent was scratchbuilding like we did in the 60's, not kitbuilding a Eurosport or Flexie inline. I even tried the flexie style nose piece. After building several Jail Door cars I woke up to the fact that these were what I wanted to do when I got back into slot racing. I helped launch modern retro racing and now it looks like it's going to be modern inline eurosports with a 60's body on it. Next will be built in wings on a 60's Lola T-70. I think I'm going to throw up. Oh, I won't vote for these kits to be legal in D-3 racing.

[John Streisguth]

It seems the idea of retro racing is the "spirit" of the rules, not necessarily the letter. Although the S7 chassis may be within the letter (I would debate the motor bracket) it's certainly not within the spirit of why the IRRA was created. Maybe the founders erred by including the possibility of EDM, laser, water jet etc cut parts, but I have to believe it was with the thought someone would make basic chassis components like pans, motor brackets, guide tongues etc without putting limits on how they are produced. There are plenty of other classes to run stamped steel chassis, laser/edm cut chassis, etc. Retro was supposed to be for the scratchbuilder.This chassis kit absolutely kills that. Maybe it won't be that good? So what, allowing it now opens the door for improved product, and eventually all the chassis will end up being built that way. Take a look at Eurosport over the last 20 years. Why should anyone build one from scratch when they know they can plunk down $30-$50 (who knows how much it may eventually cost for a chassis kit?), and put something together without even having to use a jig to build a car that can potentially put them in the winners circle?
I'll be blunt: allow this type of chassis and I will be done with retro. It's taking things WAY in the wrong direction. I suggest any racer who feels the same way make your voices heard. I think the BOD needs your support to make what some may feel is an unfair decision.

[slotcarone]

Well put by both Mike S and John S. All valid points. Really nothing more to add and 100% agree.

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

I am astounded that no one before Ron's #57 post about the center plate design. If it is RETRO, that alone ought to diqualify it.

now, as for "kits" and "bits". Commonly, in the 60s, we used pre-stamped brackts and drop arms and pans. And the earlier kits were just a reflection of what we did in the 60s. If we were going to cut brass or steel, but someone had done the same work already cheap, we would buy the bits.

In my oldie restorations, ironically, the same bits were missing from most of my chassis, the drop arm and pans that mostly migrated from car to car. I have no problem with kits in general, I do have a problem with parts that weren't around in the 60s,

Like center plate/rails.

Fate

[idare2bdul]

If all the parts were cut apart and sold separately which one would be illegal? If so ban that part.

All the guys that are complaining that a racer looked at the rules, looked at what might be improved and made a chassis to fit the rules. So what were all you guys doing back in the 60's. Seems like I remember buying parts with racer's names on the packaging, sometimes even assembeld frames...

I think Retro has now surpassed USRA for whining. I'm sure all the arguments are heart felt, not guys wanting to stack the rules in their favor. Now go play Glory Days as your sound track.