371 replies to this topic

[dc-65x]

This is my D3 car built to not only the current D3 rules but also the 1968 Car Model rules:





Body by Jairus Watson:



It's a very smooth and fun to drive car. It is also a good 20% slower in lap times than the D3 inline eurosports. Does that really matter if all the other cars in the race were built like a 1968 style car?

[Mark Wampler]

Mark, a while back Hershman suggested a Spec class to the board that would include the Warmack, JK and any other chassis kit that someone else came up with that was approved by the board. The board didn't want anything to do with it. A Spec class would have been the perfect place for these types of chassis.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[TSR]

This is my D3 car built to not only the current D3 rules but also the 1968 Car Model rules.

And this is what D3 was created for and began, but unfortunately has already deviated some from that by allowing designs that simply have no relation to the original intent. Time to rein it back to what the intent was in the first place before it becomes another speedfest for vehicles that have no place in it and true enthusiasts simply go home?

[idare2bdul]

Hey Mike, I'll challenge you on that. Anglewinders do rock. I for one have been developing my own with some good initial results.
No doubt that Retro NASCAR is becoming more popular, D3 coupes are a perfect companion to run in its own class with NASCAR's on race day

We had 3 cars last month. I don't recall seing you there. The class you are talking about isn't the one I'm talking about, it's run on the weekend with RetroPro. So now you can feel like the Roseanne Roseannadanna of D3. I miss your smiling face are you going to make the next Nascar race? I need to refresh or rebuild my car. Definitely new body and motor time.

[team burrito]

It's a very smooth and fun to drive car. It is also a good 20% slower in lap times than the D3 inline eurosports. Does that really matter if all the other cars in the race were built like a 1968 style car?

So, will you be at Eddie's next week or what?

[Mark Wampler]

We had 3 cars last month. I don't recall seing you there. The class you are talking about isn't the one I'm talking about, it's run on the weekend with RetroPro. So now you can feel like the Roseanne Roseannadanna of D3. I miss your smiling face are you going to make the next Nascar race? I need to refresh or rebuild my car. Definitely new body and motor time.

My bad on the schedule, Mike. Last month being the Checkpoint race had the NASCARS and D3 coupes running Sunday that weekend. Otherwise the NASCAR and LeMans coupe run together 3rd Saturdays. R-P and D3 Coupes run the 4th Saturday.

Note that last race, three racers were running D3 coupes with the inline LeMans coupes. They were DQ'ed. I'd like to see some adjustment along those lines for those guys that like to run anglewinder coupes. Because the inlines are still the most popular, the LeMans coupe will draw more entries than D3 coupes. Still, it would be nice to somehow incorporate the "coupes" classes. Maybe LeMans, D3 coupes and NASCAR? Too long of a day? Maybe a poll should be taken?

[Rick]

It would be nice to keep this thread on topic and not be concerned with every form of retro racing. IMHO, it seems the bulk of the particpants feel that the new EDM chassis' are beyond the "spirit" and that is all that is required to stop it now before it escalates any further. The technology can be ended with the JK/Warmack style kit. It is also apparent again IMHO that if these chassis are legalized, many racers have already said they are done AGAIN with slot cars or will move into small splinter groups of retro racers.

I don't think D3/Retro was born to grow the industry but more to bring back the fun of the 60's. If the indutry grows, which it has, that is a positive extra. But keep in sight what the true objective is. Retro is not and may not be for everyone, but it has proven to be the most popular and fastest growing aspect of the hobby, in 20 years. The SCM and Manufacturers ha ve many other choices to promote their ideas on. The problem is that those have been exploited to the 9's already and retro is the only game in town. Let us not fix something that isn't broke......................

[JerseyJohn]

Well put by both Mike S and John S. All valid points. Really nothing more to add and 100% agree.

Im with Larry, John S and Mike K. It modernises Retro (which would make it not retro!!!) Honestly I even get Po,d when guys race borrowed cars they didnt build. JJ

[HarV Wallbanger III]

WoW! What a can of worms!
Can you say "Boxstock 15" (but we will allow GP12 arms even though 15 arms had to meet rule on how short the stack could be)

Can you say strap motor I-15's in a "C" can class.

Can you say stamped chassis in what was once a scratch built chassis class.

Its USRA 1987-???? all over again.
I-15 and GP27 used to be the biggest classes at the NATS and this brought the total entries up from what I hear by 3-5 times what they are today. Why? I love seeing all the different chassis pics at races we see now. If this flys then it will look like any EURO race where they are all clones so close to each other and it will become another chassis of the month club! As soon as a new "mousetrap" hits anybody that wants to keep up will dump last months hot rod and have to go out and buy another chassis and on and on and....

Kids, look and see how well USAC has kept wraps on midgets over the years. Yes they have "allowed" change when it was good for the sport.
I hate the new WORLD car that NASCAR did but it seems the fans do not mind. Rudy can put anything on the market he wants, its the racers that will call for a class. If a body will not make it legal for their racing class then its not legal but it does not mean it can't be sold, its simply not legal for their races.

Racers can start any class at a track that they can get the Owner to allow. They are spending $$ and thats what its all about for them.

This chassis does not Have to have a D3 or IRRA stamp on it to sell well!

There is no easy answer but this should show both D3 and IRRA that more thinking is needed to keep this class growing. This would make a great spec chassis class and see how many want it. Then it would be like almost a IROC race to see who is the best driver but it does not have to be D3 or IRRA right?

He!! I don't know but I do know 1 thing I want to race and have fun!

I say cut the center bar/ motor box and its make-up motor bracket and parts out and put a real 1 (one piece) 3 sided motor bracket in it and see if it flys.

If you took one look at a modern USRA, Euro, open, 27, boxstock, Flexie etc ..etc chassis of today you would see what those 60's cars came to be ..... is this what we want for Retro? Now after this look into the future (of the past).... I say, been there, done that!
We all know what that led to.

Now Back to the future, where do we want Retro to grow?

Ok, let me get behind that thar tree over thar before ya start shoot'in at me. ....... OK........ FIRE!

[HarV Wallbanger III]

Wow! its been over a 1/2 hr. and nobody has taken any potshots at me... this must be some sort of record!

CYA!

[Tim Neja]

I don't think D3/Retro was born to grow the industry but more to bring back the fun of the 60's. If the indutry grows, which it has, that is a positive extra. But keep in sight what the true objective is. Retro is not and may not be for everyone, but it has proven to be the most popular and fastest growing aspect of the hobby, in 20 years. The SCM and Manufacturers ha ve many other choices to promote their ideas on. The problem is that those have been exploited to the 9's already and retro is the only game in town. Let us not fix something that isn't broke......................


RIGHT ON RICK!!! It's NOT broke---leave it ALONE!!!

Warmack and JK pushed the envelope--no further kit development period and we're good to go!

FWIW

I agree with ya Barn---start a SEPERATE class for EDM chassis. Can AM +?? Whatever--but DON'T change the existing Can Am or D3 rules.


T

[redbackspyder]

I don't think D3/Retro was born to grow the industry but more to bring back the fun of the 60's. If the indutry grows, which it has, that is a positive extra. But keep in sight what the true objective is. Retro is not and may not be for everyone, but it has proven to be the most popular and fastest growing aspect of the hobby, in 20 years. The SCM and Manufacturers ha ve many other choices to promote their ideas on. The problem is that those have been exploited to the 9's already and retro is the only game in town. Let us not fix something that isn't broke......................


RIGHT ON RICK!!! It's NOT broke---leave it ALONE!!!

Warmack and JK pushed the envelope--no further kit development period and we're good to go!

FWIW

I agree with ya Barn---start a SEPERATE class for EDM chassis. Can AM +?? Whatever--but DON'T change the existing Can Am or D3 rules.


T

Tim, are you then opposed to the manufacturer's getting involved in D3 to make a profit ? JK has been the backbone of tires for D3, TSR for the motors, and TRUE SCALE and ELECTRIC DREAMS for the bodies. Without Warmack and JK, D3 would not have grown to the heights that you claim, the biggest in 20 years. Warmack pushes his own limits to build because he can, and without him many may never have taken up the hobby. No one is claiming anything is broken, but you can not blame people who see a niche and want to exploit it. That creates business for raceway owners. Without new products to sell , their businesses grow stagnant and die. The need to sell more controllers, guide flags, better braid, improved tires, that is what drives this cottage industry. IRRA has more liberal rules for their version of D3 , are they not just as valid in their rules as the ones we run under at BPR ? Why not let the racers decide what they want, GOSH, what a novel concept ?

[TSR]

Mill,
D3 was not begun to benefit the manufacturers. In fact the subject hardly came up, because most had no suitable parts except for tires and at the beginning, motors that proved inadequate.
D3 was begun to:
1/ provide the people who did not like the stagnating and unhealthy forms of slot car racing practiced in raceways with something they liked and could flourish. Which it did to the extent of the limitations forced by 30 years of slow death of these businesses.
2/ provide additional income for the raceways to help them survive and possibly prosper again.

If the usual specialized manufacturers that have eeked a living from the few raceways left in the USA have profited from it, it was a bonus for them, but they did not have to make any special parts to benefit the retro racing classes. It was not an important part of the creation of D3 because frankly and to a large extent, they were not needed.

Today, as long as said manufacturers are willing to make parts that conform to the intent and the spirit of what D3 and other retro racing organizations have been promoting, great, more power to them. But if they are already searching for a speed advantage over their competition by raising the technical bar, hence compete with other manufacturers to get market shares though the introduction of technologies that simply are not the intent of retro racing, I hope that the responsible parties in all the organizations will not let them ruin retro racing in the ditch as they did with the USRA once they took effective control of it.
Regards,

[Mopar Rob]

As far as I'm concerned the IRRA F-Uped when they changed the motor bracket rules to this

"Each car must have a brass rear bracket consisting of at least three sides (vertical or

horizontal), with each connected side having a minimum width or height of at least .200". The motor bracket must

support the motor and extend to touch the rear axle tube."

Anyone could see that it would open the door for chassis designs such as this. I'm actually suprised it took so long?



BTW: How are would you enforce EDM, Laser or Water jet if banning it. I could design it in CAD, have it water jet and then just sand the edge and nick it a couple of times with a file and say it was hand cut

[Larry Mattingly]

"Let racers decide what they want"...

Oh yeah... that has worked well for USRA!

Racers 'voting' on rules is a recipe for disaster.

LM

[Rick]

BArney said: There is no easy answer but this should show both D3 and IRRA that more thinking is needed to keep this class growing. This would make a great spec chassis class and see how many want it. Then it would be like almost a IROC race to see who is the best driver but it does not have to be D3 or IRRA right?

This is the same thing Manufacturing has done for 20 years, throw something on the floor and then the USRA made a class for it. Tail wagging the dog. I say treat as a stray cat, don't feed it and it will go away

Retro doesn't need more classes by any stretch. What they have now, with the participation, makes it difficult to stage an event in a weekend. Everything that is being proposed exists out there already under another banner.

Let's call it an in-line GT12 and give it to ISRA/USRA/etc........................

[Pablo]

KIT ? We don need no steenkin KIT

Can be assembled in one hour ? What would I do with all that extra time on my hands ?

Seems like lots of lazy racers are already using kits instead of building. They even have others assemble the kits for them

[One_Track_Mind]

My outlook on this whole new chassis is summed up in all the following quotes.

The allowing of kits into D-3 racing was wrong in my opinion.

I'll be blunt: allow this type of chassis and I will be done with retro. It's taking things WAY in the wrong direction. I suggest any racer who feels the same way make your voices heard.

When I have to build a snap together toy chassis to race I'll find something else to do. I am with you 100% Mike.

Personally, when I see race reports and see so many cars built on the kits, I think it's something that should not have been allowed in the first place.

One thing D3 and IRRA have done is create "Builders" class's that have re-stimulated the creative juices of the guys that love BUILDING!!

The hobby side of building your own car and seeing it go around a track has got be the biggest thrill a person should feel as an accomplishment.Comparing and sharing ideas with your friends on what works best in your design created a togetherness. Building a car that looks like everyone else's car doesn't appeal to me, it did at first, because this is how Stuebe built it, it's got to be fast! since, I started building more and using my own ideas and plans. I can't see myself doing anything else but just that. Be different, and build chassis not looking like everyone else.

Stay away from this kit, Allow the JK kit only as a 'spec' type class. Ban the Warmack kit, and hide them in your attic for the next 40 years and sell it on ebay for a small fortune.
The BOD banned the steel guide tongues on Gorski style built chassis.

[redbackspyder]

"Let racers decide what they want"...

Oh yeah... that has worked well for USRA!

Racers 'voting' on rules is a recipe for disaster.

LM

Your right, Democracy never works ! Dictatorships are much better for all. Just ask the Chinese! Isn't it the racers that make up the group that races ? Just because one group fails, does not mean that asking for what the majority wants is a bad thing is it ? Philippe, you are right , D3 was set up for a select group, and no one disputes it. Just as IRRA wishes to police itself, D3 has the right to as well. But without manufacturers , the hobby dies a slow death. P.S. 1/32 is still 100 times bigger and much more profitable for the manufacturers.

[Larry Mattingly]

Mill

Racers need someone to protect them from themselves... trust me.

LM

[redbackspyder]

This is my D3 car built to not only the current D3 rules but also the 1968 Car Model rules:





Body by Jairus Watson:



It's a very smooth and fun to drive car. It is also a good 20% slower in lap times than the D3 inline eurosports. Does that really matter if all the other cars in the race were built like a 1968 style car?

Stunning car Rick, and a great build. Who cares how fast it is when it is that beautiful!

[redbackspyder]

Mill

Racers need someone to protect them from themselves... trust me.

LM

That is why we have Philippe

[Matt Bruce]

Personally I am very interested in what Dennis Samson and Mike Swiss`s opinion are. They are the chairs in IRRA for chassis construction, and components. Their experience and thoughts could lay the path for retros future. No pressure

[Larry Mattingly]

That is why we have Philippe

Exactly...

LM

[redbackspyder]

This is the same thing Manufacturing has done for 20 years, throw something on the floor and then the USRA made a class for it. Tail wagging the dog. I say treat as a stray cat, don't feed it and it will go away

Retro doesn't need more classes by any stretch. What they have now, with the participation, makes it difficult to stage an event in a weekend. Everything that is being proposed exists out there already under another banner.

Let's call it an in-line GT12 and give it to ISRA/USRA/etc........................

Well, at least this chassis brought back the bitchin of the 60's, ah yes, those sano times of old , where racers used to hide away and use nickels to short out lanes.........