156 replies to this topic

[redbackspyder]

Why the legal wrangling, it appears now to be a D3 rule that Speed Rubber will not be allowed. Does not matter who Mfr's it, it is a rule. Just like in D3 that you may only use certain motors for certain classes. Hell, all of this is just trying to keep a semi level playing field in D3. We have had many questionable policies and the rules change all the time, but we still try to enjoy it for what it is. I personally do not even know who is the official D3 board, because it changes so often, but they are trying to institute policies that will make racing better for the racers at Buena Park. If you want to race with Speed Rubber, run it all you like, just not during a D3 race. No one ever stopped someone from playing with it at any other time. Wing racers glue the track for practice, no one seems to care . Run your Speed Rubber till your hearts content, the lap timer is almost always on at BPR so you can see how much faster your car goes with it. Get another friend and have a race with it.

Thank you to Jay Guard for the informative Kelly Rubber chart, thanks to Duran for the tips on which type to use, and Thanks to the D3 Board (?) for making a quick ruling on an issue that most of the top racers thought was plain as day ( PDL,Steube,Vitter,Nyland,Warmack,Poyner,Sterrett,etc...) .

By the way, on behalf of our fallen comrade, Dave "THE VITTER " Larsen, he asks the question, "WHO IS NOW ON THE D3 BOARD, AND HOW DO YOU CONTACT THEM ? Seems like a fair question, because if you do have concerns with D3, should you not be able to contact those in authority ?

IF SPEED RUBBER IS SO IMPORTANT TO A SELECT GROUP, WHY NOT ORGANIZE A SPEED RUBBER FESTIVAL, and have a go at it ?

[MSwiss]

At my own track I have a spec tire rule in our 410 sprint car division. One supplier... one compound. Saves the racers tons of money. And, OMG, they have to adapt to changing track conditions using the same tire all evening.

Do they go into the pits and crew brings out the big Ungar's and replace the .063 frame rails with .078 ones once the track tightens up?
Obviously comparing a slot car with a 1/1 race car with built in adjustability is not valid.

[Foamy]

You need to do more research on 'restraint of trade' laws...

Go ahead and lawyer up ... you'll lose.

LM

1) Don't need to, it's been done before. Also, it's "Prior Restraint"
2) It won't be me, and the lawyers will win. Ask the USRA. Part in question, Strap Int15 Cans.

To underail the thread, in general nobody wants a spec one tire racing deal. If it is a donated tire that comes with your entry fee, that is fine.
After Speed tires were BANNED IN 2002 (I think that was the year) NEARLY EVERYWHERE, why are we still having this problem?
No Speed tires is NOT spec tire racing.

[Ron Hershman]

2) It won't be me, and the lawyers will win. Ask the USRA. Part in question, Strap Int15 Cans.

Well Joel actaully won that one by having his attorney send a letter to the USRA tech director ( who at the time was a Team Koford racer ) and other USRA region directors.

There was no court date....... there was no court filing.... I still have the letter from the attorney and it wasn't about restraint of free trade...it was about "inside" can dimensions and the defining of a C-Can. At the time...the only thing that made a "C" can a "C" can was the inside dimensions.

While the rules didn't say the can had to be constructed in any particular fashion or have a top and bottom.... the rules clearly stated "inside" dimensions and those dimensions could be measured in the Camen strap can. Many of the USRA region directors also found you could measure the inside dimensions of the can and made it legal for ther regional series.

So the USRA had to make it legal..... at the next Nat's meeting strap cans came up for a vote.... strap cans were voted in...Koford went and made a strap 15 can and the rest is history.

[Ron Hershman]

Do they go into the pits and crew brings out the big Ungar's and replace the .063 frame rails with .078 ones once the track tightens up?
Obviously comparing a slot car with a 1/1 race car with built in adjustability is not valid.

No..but they might bring out the tools, springs and shocks once the track tightens up.

[Ron Hershman]

The tire company was M & H...

You are correct, they lost in court.

LM

The biggie I remember and I think it was the first ever involved McCreary racing tires.

[Larry Mattingly]

Ron usually has the right info...

M&H was the first to challenge the spec tire rule...

McCreary (now American Racer) has threaten on many occasions...

Mike:

In a 25-lap sprint car race there are no pit stops to change anything...

You are stuck with the set-up you picked, including the spec tires.

I'm done having fun.

As I stated before, it is your sandbox. Have at it.

LM

[TSR]

I'm done having fun.

Yes, it is a lot better being a sad sack and moping.

[MSwiss]

Mike:

In a 25-lap sprint car race there are no pit stops to change anything...

You are stuck with the set-up you picked, including the spec tires.

I'm guessing you do get on the track before those 25 lap races to assess the conditions and change the car if need be.
And you or your pit crew doesn't need a soldering iron and a jig.

[Tex]

I was watching an "outlaw" race or "modified" race or something recently(on TV); anyway it was a short dirt track. The commentator mentioned that the guys generally got 3 or 4 laps practice and that was it. I don't know if that was specific to that one race only, or if it was generally the way it goes at most tracks/races. Anyway, I thought 3 - 4 laps wasn't much practice. Then again, if they know what they're doing, I guess they can determine the conditions with such limited practice.

I can't tell what's going on with a HUNDRED laps of practice.

[Rick]

Do they go into the pits and crew brings out the big Ungar's and replace the .063 frame rails with .078 ones once the track tightens up?
Obviously comparing a slot car with a 1/1 race car with built in adjustability is not valid.

I hate to report you are in error here. Yes the car when it pits after hot laps, a heat race or B Main will go into the pits and they can change bars to a thicker more rigid one, if they so deem. They also have about 2 dozen areas to change lift, roll, chassis stiffness etc etc etc. SO they have much more adjustment than a change from .062 to .078. They most certatinly relate to their smaller counterparts but are much more complex. Looked under a Late Model lately?

[MSwiss]

My point was exactly that .

They have adjustments built into the car that can be fiddled with to dial in the car
so they are more suitable for spec tires.

Slot cars are soldered together, thus aren't.

Report I'm in error???
On what?
Did you really think I thought they had big Ungar's?

[Rick]

This thread has drifted a bit from speed rubber to spec rubber. It happens to threads. The speed rubber thing has been addresses and taken care of, on paper. So any further discussion on that topic is rather moot.

The spec tires should probably have its own thread.

Almost any racer that enters a new raceway will ask the owner or one of the regs, what tire works best here? They usually will reply with their opinion on what works on their track, give you the variables that would change this and then the racer picks up some tires to try. For example: at Keystone about everyone started out on natural rubber tires and when the track took some rubber several cars changed over to Wonder Rubber. Mark Green told us when we entered the shop, WR is what you will probably be racing on. Damn! if he wasn't correct. Track owners know what works on their track in about any conditions and will steer you in the right direction.

What is run at your raceway on a regualr basis? Is there a lot of diversity in tire choice between racers there or is about everyone using the smae tire? ALthough spec tire is a four letter word, it would not harm the racing.

Balls to the wall 1:1 racing has a minimum tire durometer number. Why would they do that? There is rubber available to every racer that is softer but it is not premitted. Check the next time and look for the little patches on the tires, this is to cover up their compound so the competition cannot see what they chose. And YES, even the top racer in the country has been caught with those soft tire compounds on their car and DQ'ed.

[Rick]

They call them Miller/Lincoln "tigs" and yes they have them.

My point was exactly that .

They have adjustments built into the car that can be fiddled with to dial in the car
so they are more suitable for spec tires.

Slot cars are soldered together, thus aren't.


In error ?????
Did you really think I thought they had big Ungar's?

[Hworth08]

The most important adjustment on a 1:1 car is the driver. Every ashpalt track changes as the temperature and humidity change. Weekly short tracks nearly always have at least 3 divisions that are usually laying down different rubber. A short track car usually feels a lot different as the tires get hot and then cool down during cautions.

An experienced driver will change his line through a corner to try and offset the changing conditions. A good driver can do a lot ON THE TRACK to adjust for a loose or pushing car, something a driver can't do or can "barely" do on a slot car track.

[Ron Hershman]

I was watching an "outlaw" race or "modified" race or something recently(on TV); anyway it was a short dirt track. The commentator mentioned that the guys generally got 3 or 4 laps practice and that was it. I don't know if that was specific to that one race only, or if it was generally the way it goes at most tracks/races. Anyway, I thought 3 - 4 laps wasn't much practice. Then again, if they know what they're doing, I guess they can determine the conditions with such limited practice.

I can't tell what's going on with a HUNDRED laps of practice.

Karl Kinser would go out on the track... kick the dirt and go "groove" a sets of tires for Steve Kinser and back in the day.... they won lots of races.

Steve would have never won as many as he did without Karl "grooving" the tires and knowing how to read the track.

[TSR]

Those damned cheats!

[Rick]

Kinser has been WoO champ 20 times!! Not bad. It's surely due to his great driving, but Hershman is 100% correct, without Karl, I doubt his driving ability would have netted him the winniest driver in WoO history.

At the recent R4, only one person tested tires in a serious manner. Guess what? He won! Never to take anything away from his driving ability, which is top shelf, but preparation is just as important! To finish first, first you must finish...

I learned a very hard lesson at the last R4. Had a killer car and a killer driver, but had only brought one killer chassis. The car got crashed out in the Coupe race. I tried to repair but it did not come back as good. Never again, there will be a chassis for each class. Lesson learned. Cost us the Main Event or at least a legit shot at it... Can never prepare good enough or have enough good cars in the box.

[Rudy]

Will you just stop with the "Spec Tire" horse exhaust? No racers want it, the track owners will make less money with it, the tire manufacturers don't want it. You have been yammering about this for months, just get over it.

I talked to Terry the other day, and the subject of tires came up.
He told me Bulldog rubber is a proprietary compound he had developed with the rubber company, and not the same as the wing car "speed rubber"

The real "speed rubber" is rock hard, and lasts 1 or 2 heats in racing before you have to change them.

Sounds to me like if you don't run bull dog rubber, you will not be competitive, so there is an argument to ban it.

Why then don't you ban the next best rubber, then the next best... where does it stop? You are going to insist that all manufacturers use the same rubber compound? what kind of racing is this?
how are you going to tech for rubber chemistry?

I think this whole thing is stupid!~

[idare2bdul]

It's easy to forget how bad tires used to be. They got better from racers and manufacturers improving the breed. What would have happened if every time a new product came out it got banned?

[JimF]

I think this whole thing is stupid!

I'm sure your opinion will be duly considered.

[Ron Hershman]

I talked to Terry the other day, and the subject of tires came up.
He told me Bulldog rubber is a proprietary compound he had developed with the rubber company, and not the same as the wing car "speed rubber"

The real "speed rubber" is rock hard, and lasts 1 or 2 heats in racing before you have to change them.

Sounds to me like if you don't run bull dog rubber, you will not be competitive, so there is an argument to ban it.

Why then don't you ban the next best rubber, then the next best... where does it stop? You are going to insist that all manufacturers use the same rubber compound? what kind of racing is this?
how are you going to tech for rubber chemistry?

Well there is a manufacturer who is working on a new proprietary brass being made by one of your competitors... it will not be the same as the brass you use... when this competitor comes out with it, it will sell for twice as much as yours... it will obsolete all other brass... you will have to use it to be competitive... chassis kits will cost twice as much.

We won't ban it... that fair enough for ya?

What kind of racing is this??? Well, it's not going to be like the USRA... I don't think the powers that be are going to sit by and watch it go down the tube when it can be prevented.

Besides... Terry can be competitive with the same Natural rubber he sells like the others.

[Rick]

I talked to Terry the other day, and the subject of tires came up.
He told me Bulldog rubber is a proprietary compound he had developed with the rubber company, and not the same as the wing car "speed rubber"

What a pile of crap. I apologize, but just don't buy someone "developed" a new rubber for slot cars. This is almost as rich as the newly-developed matrix aluminum we were fed a few years ago...

[TSR]

Gentlemen,

May I remind you all that this is a D3 matter for D3 racers, and many who comment here have no irons in the fire?
I would really appreciate if you would open your own thread somewhere else, with all due respect.

D3 has made their decision and there are no more comments needed at this time except for actual D3 racers and if anything, tire manufacturers interested in supplying tires for the series and wishing to submit samples of their product.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[Rick]

Sorry, PdL, but it effects all racers in any organization. It was posted in a public forum for all members to view and comment and many have.

After re-reading all the thread I recant and say, by all means allow anything in that is available to everyone. Who am I or anyone else to stop modern developement of any product. It brings faster lap times and that is the name of the game, faster! $10 a pair, $40 a pair, who cares? I now understand the problem, it has been all those people that quit, they are the ones to blame, or the new stuff wouldn't have to be so expensive because there would be a much larger market to sell to.

I am sure if I use the Speed rubber tires I will become the A Main racer I always dreamed of being. Watch out Hershman, your days at the top are numbered...