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#1 Champion 507

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 10:22 PM

Hi everyone,

I'm starting a new thread here called Motor Shop. What I'll be dealing with will be restorations, modifications and new builds of mostly vintage slot car motors in all three of the main sizes 16D, 26D and 36D. Plus, I'll also do some c-can stuff as well. I even have one 13D (UO13?) planned. I even may toss in a modern Parma or Slotworks 16D once in a while. I'll even get out the old LaGanke arm winder and wind a few.

As you can tell by my avatar, I like the old Champion of Chamblee. Back in the day, I raced about 200 miles away from Chamblee and we got the new stuff from them pretty quickly. While Champion is my favorite, Motor Shop will not be limited to that. I've got some projects planned that involve Mura, Lenz, Mabuchi and others.

John Havlicek and I have been emailing each other back and forth about this for a few days now. The way I like to view this is, my thread will be "in addition to" his "Arm Winding" thread not "in competition with" it. There are several chassis and car builders out here, so why not a couple of motor guys? I'm fully aware that there are a number of excellent motor builders out here too. You know who you are.

I've already laid a bunch of ground work with John and I think he's cool about it. As a matter of fact, most people here on Slotblog I've had contact with have been absolutely wonderful.

My first post will appear Wednesday night USA central time zone. I certainly will welcome your comments and questions. Let's have some "phun"!
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#2 havlicek

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 05:12 AM

Hi Doug,

Like I said in our emails, what's not to be cool with? I still think it's a hoot that you even felt it was necessary to run this by me. This ain't my house and I don't see posting as competitive, but I sure look forward to your posts! You and I are no different from anyone else here posting their builds...well...with the small exception being that very few build or maintain motors as that has pretty much been taken out of the slot car building equation :blink: There are some here that do amazing things with motors though, so even with the participation in this very small part of the hobby being so low...the bar is still set awfully high! To me doing a Russkit 22/23 or a tricked-out later Mura are both such cool projects that it really doesn't matter what the subject is. While there's a certain satisfaction from restoring and hot-rodding a 40+ year old Mabuchi, I don't really see a huge difference between that and modern C and D cans or even the RX42's I did a while ago. It's all a hoot and hooking one up afterward to see the result is the payoff.

Maybe it's all for the best that these motors can be seen apart from sanctioned racing where the urge to "out gun" the competition results in $400 motors. There's great fun in tearing them down, seeing what makes them tick and applying some "kitchen table engineering" just for it's own sake. Best would be that you stir some interest in people to get out the tweezers, brush alignment tools and epoxy they've got lying around in the bottom of their slot boxes :)

-john
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#3 Bill from NH

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 06:27 AM

Doug, I look forward to seeing this motor thread & learning a few things from it. Unfortunately, I don't own but a few of these motors.:)

Bill Fernald
 

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#4 havlicek

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 11:09 AM

Unfortunately, I don't own but a few of these motors.


...oh I can help take care of that Bill :)

-john
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#5 Prof. Fate

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 11:35 AM

Hi

This concern with being offended has me puzzled! I have not been shy about weighing in on this subject and now I wonder if that lead to my offending people!

Currently, I am rebuilding some Dynamic 1/32 anglewinders that I had since they came out in '69. I don't remember the motors that came in them THEN. The 1/24s had then current 16ds from mabuchi like the Champion 5001. 65/30s wind in a big bushing can with cheap uncaged ball bearings in the motor. THAT was and is too much for the 1/32 chassis and I just don't remember. My survivors all have Russkit 23 type motors in them with various, often dead winds. And I have a batch of old 32 s winds that are nice in this application. I am not sure how this fits what YOU mean here. Though.

Nothing local races anything like these, these are just for fun.

Fate
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#6 don.siegel

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 12:48 PM

Yes, excellent idea - in addition to all the complete motors I have, I also have three or four boxes of miscellaneous parts and could always use some more inspiration...

Putting these things together late at night is curiously fulfilling...

Don
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#7 Champion 507

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 01:45 PM

Rocky,

As I stated in my opening post, I have been very pleased with the people I've had contact with out here on slotblog...even PdL. :laugh2: :laugh2:

Since I only joined this year and John has been out here for what...3 years(?) I thought, out of courtesy to him, I would explain what I wanted to do and see if it was okay with him. There are some people out there who would view this as a threat or competition to what they're doing. John does not. You have to understand that in my 50+ years of life on this planet, I have gone in to situations with good intentions and a heart of a saint, only to be disappointed and let down, wishing I had just kept my mouth shut.

So, as I perceive it, everybody's cool with it and we'll git 'er cranked up tonight! Let's have some "phun".
Doug Azary
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#8 One_Track_Mind

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 02:17 PM

Git er' Done! :laugh2:

August 16, 2007 Urban Word of the Day

A slothead phrase meaning to go ahead and complete a task. Shows support, encouragement, or respect.


Slots-4-Ever
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#9 Pete L.

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 02:24 PM

Doug,


Sounds good...looking forward as I'm sure the rest of the C.A.R.S. Vintage Slot Car Club is , to seeing some vintage motors being fired up.
Peter J. Linszky

C.A.R.S. Vintage Slot Car Club

#10 havlicek

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 04:30 PM

in addition to all the complete motors I have, I also have three or four boxes of miscellaneous parts and could always use some more inspiration...


Yikes Don!...would those be small, medium or large boxes? :D

-john
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#11 TSR

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 05:39 PM

We want to see some yellow and green insulators or else! :)

#12 Champion 507

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Posted 16 September 2009 - 09:38 PM

Let's have some "phun"!

This is a first generation Champion 517. The two most notable features are the smaller opening in front of the end bell for the armature shaft and the small diameter aluminum housing that originally held the cheap Jap ball bearings. Everything you see here is genuine Champion except for the motor springs and the label.

DSCF3237.JPG


The parts for this motor have actually come together from different sources but it easily could have been one of the wind-it-yourself Champion motor kits.


DSCF3248.JPG


I have owned this wind-it-yourself armature kit from Champion since it was brand new. I probably wound this in 1968. I think it has somewhere between 35 and 40 turns of #26. Though never run, it had been wound and epoxied for over 35 years. It was not until about seven years ago that I had someone balance and true the comm. Even though Champions' arms were balanced using a bench grinder, this one was balanced with a small sanding drum in a Dremel. Although it does not have the exact look of a Champion balanced armature, it does capture the flavor of the grind balancing. Additionally the comm was professionally trued. Unfortunately when I took the picture all of the grinding marks were pointing away from the camera.



DSCF3238.JPG


I found another set of brush springs that look more like the originals and here is everything all assembled.


DSCF3247.JPG

DSCF3246.JPG

DSCF3245.JPG


The motor runs very smoothly and draws two amps at five volts, but for some reason it just does not sound as fast as it should. I do not know if these armatures become frail after 40+ years of sitting, if the wire insulation has broken down under the epoxy or what. I would be afraid to even take it for a couple of laps on a tri-oval. I know on my original factory built 517 I had restored the chassis that it used to run in and was taking some rather slow laps on reduced power when the motor slowed down after a few minutes. The motor was not hot...it was just barely warm...but it was hurt. About ten years ago I was told by a track owner that he had seen a lot of the old vintage motors burn up when people tried to run them. Not wanting to burn this one up, it will probably become a shelf queen.

The label for this motor was duplicated from a rather nice, but used, original 517. PdL, this is the motor with the blue insulators.


DSCF3201.JPG


The next installment will feature a 517 with a slightly different endbell and a change in the can bushing.

Thanks for looking!


Doug Azary
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#13 munter

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 12:47 AM

Thanks Doug...
I enjoyed reading that and am looking forward to more.
regards

John Warren
Slot cars are my preferred reality


#14 don.siegel

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 04:25 AM

Doug,

First, to answer your question about the period rewinds: we've got a pretty good database here, since there are a fair number of vintage events in Europe these days and I just returned from one in Dunkerque and Belgium! (2 day event, but they're only about 15 km apart...).

Basically, the stock motors from the period, up to the 26D, are amazingly robust and will often run for long periods with no problems. As soon as you use a rewind, especially the hotter ones, you're tempting fate. I've used mild rewinds with no problem (twin 70 x 31 in a Russkit Black Widow a couple years ago for instance). But some of the guys using hotter winds have had them blow up - with luck before the race! Bordeaux uses a regulated power supply, and I think the Belgian track in Nieuport (American orange 100' with high banking) has a storage battery and charger... - a couple of the hotter motors blew up here, but my Globe and many others kept right on ticking.

Maybe that doesn't answer your question about the epoxy, etc. deteriorating, but it's probably a good idea not to run these, unless you're like Usain Bolt and want 10 seconds of glory!

Here's another motor kit, probably predating the Champion; never saw this at the time, just mostly the Champion stuff, but found it at a swap meet here a couple years ago.

Posted Image

Posted Image

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#15 havlicek

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 05:40 AM

Hi Doug,

Great start to the Motor Shop! The 517 was and still is a sweet motor and yours has the even better aspect of having been wound and still owned by you. Truthfully, I would be really surprised if there was near 40 turns of #26 on the arm with those unique-but-real-estate-hungry Champion insulators on there. Low 30's would still be a tight fit, but in the end it really doesn't matter as the motor has unique appeal regardless. Because of capillary action, even moderately heavy-bodied epoxy tends to work it's way down through the windings before it gels and then cures, so I wouldn't think that the wire insulation has broken down...but I guess anything's possible??? Have you metered the arm to be sure there aren't any shorts and that the poles all read about the same resistance?...that would tell the tale for sure. Anyway, this is a great motor and it's even greater that you've kept it all these years!


Hi Don,

I've seen some of those French kits online every once in a while and yours looks mint from the pictures. I don't remember if I had played with any as a kid, but what's the deal with the "Rotor with extra Plates" thing on the label. Did they make provision for lengthening the stack or something, or was it just a longer stack???

-john
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#16 don.siegel

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 05:58 AM

I think it's just a longer stack John, but will take a closer look when I open that particular box! If I remember right, that was the trend at the time for these early 16D rewinds (re Tom Malone article).

And I'll try to post some photos of my motor parts boxes this weekend...

Don

#17 TSR

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 09:07 AM

Everything you see here is genuine Champion except for the motor springs and the label.

And the lead wires. :)

#18 don.siegel

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 09:26 AM

Actually Philippe, that's a good point: what were the Champion lead wires on their rewinds? I seem to remember the transparent speaker type wires too, but maybe because that's what I used on mine...

Don

PS: now that I think of it, I have a Mura motor with very tightly coiled twin (I mean stuck together, is there a name for that?) transparent lead wires in the box, not attached to the motor.

#19 Prof. Fate

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 10:50 AM

Hi

That is what I love about you guys. I never noted things like this and have no idea where some of the parts in my motor boxes came from!

Anyway, a critical problem with those old hand winds is abrading the wire on the stack. First check by simply putting any meter on the brush hood and on the stack. IF there is a breakdown in the insulation or you abraded the wind, there will be a reading through the stack, which should not be there!

I don't know about elsewhere, but in the day when I was a serious money making pro, I did total rebuilds every race. meaning an "original" motor wouldn't be so original the second race! Later with things like flexis and D3 and so on. When I am running a lot, I end up with a set of notes on the periods involved in replacing the parts. A stock super 16d, for instance, in flexi, in my local programs required a new arm every 3 races as an example. And that is just a 28.

The problem, of course, being mostly the soft com.

In the equipment pictured above, the 5001 arm, a 65/30s wind, will run for hours and hours, each size hotter pretty much halves the lifespan until about a 26 when you hope to get a race. The likely first problem was that with any wind, you needed to replace the brushes every 30 to 60 minutes of track time. Again, I don't remember seeing it mentioned in the mags. IN THE DAY, the brushes for the 26d were often longer than the 16d and we used those. But I was and I know others were just replacing the brush holders with 36d hoods and using the bigger brushes, usually filed slightly at the end because we were concerned with segment overlap.

Fate
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#20 Champion 507

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 10:51 AM

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your kind words so far. I wound this thing with Belden Polythermaleze #26. I still have that same spool of wire over 40 years later. It was supposed to be about the best wire on the market at the time. Of course I was just a teen when I did this. Maybe I did something wrong...who knows?

Don: I think French added 2 or 3 laminations to the stack. I have a 26D motor coming up soon that has a NOS French arm in it and it clearly has a longer stack.

PdL: There are 2 motors in this first post. On the motor I was featuring in the build, I did not attach the lead wires yet. The motor with the label on the flat side of the can, partially covering up one of the retaining screws, was posted as a reference and it is a factory built 517. But yes you are correct, the Champion built does have the original lead wires.

John: You're probably right, it has probably has closer to 33 - 35 turns of #26. No, I didn't meter it. It would be nice to know what the readings are but it still can't fix it. At least it runs. As best as I can tell, parts from 3 different motors and some NOS things came together for this build with the arm being the only item I've owned from back in the day. I'm planning to build a brass rod inline chassis for it with a Lola T70, McLaren or Ferrari body for it. As Rick T. used to say, so many cars to build, so little time.
Doug Azary
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#21 havlicek

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 04:34 PM

I have a Mura motor with very tightly coiled twin (I mean stuck together, is there a name for that?) transparent lead wires in the box


Hi Don,

It's called lamp cord or "zip cord", although it has become common to call the clear stuff "speaker wire". As far as I know, both the black/brown stuff and the clear stuff are the same as far as the type and stranding of the comductors inside and of course, lamps are still wired with either. For speakers, some people find it easier to keep the polarity straight because you can see mthe color of the conductors with the clear stuff (gold and silver). Lamp cord or zip cord (the kind you can't see through) has a "trace" on the outside for the same purpose...sometimes it's a molded in rib, sometimes the printing is all on the one side.

-john

John: You're probably right, it has probably has closer to 33 - 35 turns of #26.


Hi Doug,

I guess??? Then again, it was common to jam as much wire as you could fit back then...even if it meant smashing it with a popsicle stick :blush: :blink: :laugh2: Still, if you think about it a G20 arm is simewheree around that many turns but of #27 wire right? (I forget) and those are pretty fast/fun & reliable arms/motors. Keep them coming Doug! :)

-john
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#22 Hworth08

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 06:02 PM

A modern G20 is 37 of 27. However the webbing on the stack is a fair amount "slimmer" than the old ones are.
Don Hollingsworth

#23 Phil Irvin

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 06:17 PM

Back when I was still in diapers. :D I used a Dremel tool to hold the arms while I wrapped and counted. I got real tired of remembering just how many turns I had on each pole. Got tired of holding the Dremel too....LaGENKI came into my life, thank god....Still got it to. One day I realised just how bad 3 turns hurt a razor balance job :blush: . At the time I was still in the 29/30 guage wire. I de wound the arm. Finding the 3 extra turns. I measured the lengths of the good poles wires and they were with in 1/2 inch. I started measuring all motors and not counting. I found I had a better natural balance and ended up taking less off the arms to balance them. At the tine. I did keep records of all I wound but sadly the note book is somewhere in 'moving land'... :angry: In the 66 to 72 range I did between 40-50 rewwinds. Most for me except when I needed airlines tickets to go to the Texas races of the day. ;)

I have seen a LaGenki that had a counter adapted to it. I don't know if he did it or someone else did. Has anyone used length rather than turns to wind...Or am i just :dash2: ....out of it :laugh2:

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#24 MantaRay

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 06:36 PM

RGEO has a winding arm/machine
pm him as Rick
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#25 havlicek

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Posted 17 September 2009 - 07:14 PM

A modern G20 is 37 of 27. However the webbing on the stack is a fair amount "slimmer" than the old ones are.


Thanks for the info Don...and that underscores my point even more Don. As far as capacity is concerned, that might be as "full" as 32-33 turns on a vintage blank (?), making almost 40 turns of #26 on a vintage blank a pretty tough target to shoot for.

RGEO has a winding arm/machine, pm him as Rick


Hi Ray,

Rick's machine is esentially the same thing as the LaGanke that Phil already has.

Hi Phil,

I use "patterns" and # turns and yes...if I'm interrupted I can lose count and it buigs me :blush: I've seen winding cranks adapted to use a counter as well, doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to rig up.

-john
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