475 replies to this topic

[Jairus]

Just spitballing here but I've been thinking about this for months since the 2011 proxy started. A few of you wanted to run the Parma track and I shot that idea down right quick due to the simple fact that the faster tracks tend to destroy some of these toys more than the shorter tracks.

So... here is an idea for the Proxy 2012. Not totally sure just who will step forward and organize the next event. But I wanted to get our creative juices flowing again long before the deadline in order to source the needed bits.

Here is what I have been mulling over and darned if it was not inspired by ole "Wavemaker".

The idea is to run only one or two fast tracks. Fastest car wins! (prizes, money, glory?)
Thingies are basically "balls-out" designs that use the best of the best tech to go as fast as possible.
A quick peek at the final pages of our history already reads that the current wing racer occupies (there is that word again) the current position on that throne of all 'Thingiedom' so why not go with that...?

I present this idea: "Choti Doody"!
Yeah, the Choti line of bodies pretty much contain the essence of the modern wing racer. Anyone can solder together a lightweight chassis. So the question is... what motors?
Well, we have stuck with 1968 as a tech line-in-the-sand in the past almost to the point of insanity! However, I suggest in order to increase participation and move the movement forward, (not to mention increase reliability) the tech deadline should be adjusted to 1970. This would allow C-can motors! (or the B-can of course)
Ah... that would be Champion and Mura C-can motors (two hole) without buss bars! but cutting the can down could be allowed!

Can drive or endbell drive makes no difference but we limit the placement to inline only just for fun.
Any gears, any wheels and tires as long as they were available in 1970.
All bodies should be Choti (or similar) or you will fly off the freaking track.
No added wings, just the body that was originally molded. (Electric Dreams and O2R have them BTW.)

The question is... how much downforce do you need and how much weight is the question?
How much power can we squeeze out of a little Mura motor packed full of the best ceramic magnets on the face of this earth?

Soooo... how quick is quick on the Parma track?
Yeah, I want to race on Parma and at least one American King!

What do you think?
Wanna play BALLS-OUT?

[Gator Bob]

I'm in!!!

But of course... I have a few suggestions.

[Jairus]

What are they?

[havlicek]

I'm in for sure when it comes to Muras and think it's a great idea. I'm also of a mind that only ceramic magnets should be allowed and even then, the opportunity is there to build a motor with too much power. If someone is goofy enough to stick a #24 or (heavens-to-mergatroid) or a #23 in there, there's probably going to be some serious smoke. Think about it, an all-out Mura or Champion installed in a super light chassis underneath what is essentially a wing car body sounds a lot like a WMD waiting to happen.


-john

[MantaRay]

I'm OK with '70s wheels... I think '70s tires would be impractical.

[chief32s]

All bodies have to be Choti or you will fly off the freaking track.
No added wings, just the body that was originally molded. (Electric Dreams and O2R have them.)

What about Choti inspired homemade vacform bodz? You know I like a bit of bodybuilding.

I'm up for a bit of balls out racing...

Just another thought, maybe there is scope for an ultra modern, non vintage class based on the best there's out there today, but in the Thingie spirit, we could call it "Conceptuals" or some such. It could be like '67/8 all over again, but in 2011/12, a bit like the Proxy Edo hinted at a while back...'Anything goes'...If the proliferation of wing car solutions might be seen as a problem a simple answer would be to limit the cars to a certain set of dims in 3D, i.e they all have to fit in a box of such and such dimensions when closed, else they are disqualified.

Only throwing this open.

ATB
Al.

[endbelldrive]

In the spirit of the old daze...no rear tire width or diameter restrictions. I guess there should be a gear and chassis clearance rules or no track owner will let you run.

BTW....I'm building a tiny wheeled "What If?" Russkit Marcos Mantis "slammed" as low as I can get it (a la Floyd Manley articles in Model Car Science). Howie Ursaner said that he built an inline something like that back in the day...just to see how fast it would go!

[macman]

I like the idea... What works on a king will not necessarily work on the MTT.

[Jairus]

Yeah, Ben. Bob Isrealite called me a bit ago and suggested a move to eliminate Parma, thus running on just two or three King tracks alone. I agree with that as it eliminates postal cost and the need to sweat over customs in Europe. (No offense to our European brothers in this hobby.)

Bob also wanted to request only 1/8" axles and supported only ceramic mags.

Al, I agree with you. We have never limited body designs in the past and I see no reason to do so in the future. Carve away... but remember. This is just spit-balling. Nothing is set and we don't even have a race director yet.
Nothing will happen, if I decide to pick up the mantel once again, until the current race is over and DONE with.

[Gus Kelley]

Hey Guys! The thingie was invented here in NorCal from what I understand. The cars were lighter than todays wing cars. I could not tell you their weight because scales were not a common tool or item then. The faster bodies were shoe-horn shaped and were mounted on very light perimeter frames. The calif-bay area and Sacramento were a hot spot for these cars because of the large number of raceways with large swooping tracks. Often these tracks were over three hundred feet in lap length with banked and lightly banked turns with no intricate driving needed. All hoirsepower and little handling needed. Hot motors were 26 and 25 single winds and some 28 and 29 double winds. At the end of the era came the side dams on the bodies. Then they disappeared around '68 with the angle-winder cars and movement to smaller tracks with driving skills needed. I do very much miss that era but as such in everything in our lives , evolution figures in. Gus in Sacto

[Jairus]

Okay, Bob and I also discussed limiting the arm wind. I am not for it but one option could be only running tagged arms, for instance gp20. New or old.
I don't like it because it adds another silly rule and eliminates the motor builders among us who like to innovate and wind crazy coat-hanger wire/double winds/star winds... but whatever.
I figure if someone wants to wind a grenade motor... it probably won't last two races anyway! Which is the very reason I suggest a bit of endurance be involved by running two or three races. (NO MAINTENANCE ALLOWED)
Again, just spit-balling... but your car dies... it is out!

[HarV Wallbanger III]

In the early days there were many articles on building your own Thingie in the mags but back then everything was light, light weight.... Want to challenge people..... make a 75 grams weight limit!

Maybe somebody with access to old mags can scan some of the "Super Light Super Fast Thingie" type articles I remember reading in 1967....?

Ceramic mags
High speed tracks only
1 or 2 main rail frames only
75 gram weight limit NO MORE
inline only
1/2" fronts only (optional)
Vintage crown gears only (optional)
Mabuchi motors only... my vote (optional)

[Howmet TX]

This sounds like fun. I like old school Muras, I like Thingies, I like a nice lightweight inline frame. But just to add another query about bods- I'd want to carve my own Choti-style like Al, but should the material be limited to period thick butyrate/PETG, or would super thin Lexan be allowed? Plenty of time to ponder the details I hope.

[havlicek]

I think key to all this is pretty simple:

1)make as few rules as possible, but stick to them without exceptions
2)look at "the spirit" of the time frame for guidance.
3)Rules should be designed for both "fairness" so no one has say a modern G7 motor in their car, but also for "inclusiveness" so as many people can join in as want to. I wouldn't include any modern motors (D or C cans) unless you wanted to setup a "modern thingie" race because lots of people would probably just get one of those.
4)Don't get so hung up writing rules

It could be as simple as:

1/16" track clearance, 3 1/4" width, Choti body, any motor up to Mura B and C motor, any period chassis (manufactured or scratchbuilt) or modern scratchbuilt. Why make things more complicated than they need be?

-john

[don.siegel]

Sounds like good guidelines John; for the track clearance, I would tend to think that they went a bit lower than that, at least judging by Floyd Manley's articles - anybody from NorCal remember what the rule was, if there was a rule?

For what it's worth, here's my one and only original Choti body...



And the not so lightweight original chassis...



Whether this was the chassis originally under the car is another question, but that's how I found it on ebay many years ago... I would tend to think that even the aerodynamic Thingie bodies tended to add more chassis weight as the motors became much more powerful, and before going to real wings.

Don

[Jairus]

Looks like we have to open up the bodies to ANY now. You can't have a restriction of "Only Choti" and then allow two (Maybe three if Mikey Z. jumps in) making their own.
So we go back to Al's suggestion of dimension restriction (3.25w x 2.0h x 8.0l), with no modern production bodies allowed.

Ray of course is excited since he is the only one making those swoopy Choti bodies...
Sooo... avoid the rush and get your order in now!

Even if we don't do this... it's still fun to collect parts for another project (Like I NEED another project)

1/16 ground clearance is fine by the way.
We are only running 2 or 3 races. Remember: "BALLS OUT"!

[chief32s]

Another thought, Are we sticking with inline, or allowing angle/sidewinders... Couldn't sleep last night as a new thingie concept was evolving in my mind. Also, what's the position on a twin engined beast? hehe.

Can't wait to get carving and collecting.

ATB
Al

[Gator Bob]

Al,
You know you are hooked when the crave to carve keeps you up all night.

[Jairus]

Al, I love the idea of two motors!
But so far it seems the consensus appears to be in-line only.

Guys, we are pretty much charting new ground here. For some unknown reason the Thingie movement pretty much stayed with the technology of '68 chassis design using wedge bodies. Why no versions have turned up using the anglewinder is baffling. Beyond the obvious fact that in-line is easier to build quick and light.
Another thing to consider is those who liked to build and race Thingies were the impetus to swing the 'organized' scale boys to their squashed, wedgie and aero bodies. In other words, we is they! Or the Thingie movement was actually made up of scale racers running CanAM, Sports cars and the like as well. Once the wings came up on the CanAm's they enveloped the Thingie movement and the two hobbies became one. As we all know now, the modern Group 27 wing racer embodies all the aspects of this Thingie movement.
Light weight.
Powerful motor.
Aero aids
Careful and balanced construction.

We in the Thingie proxy have to set some boundaries so thus... this discussion.

So, say you are standing in hobby shop in 1970. Using only what was available THEN with the best aero body of the day, could YOU build a three-second car on an American King?

[Gator Bob]

Idea / suggest

1/8" rear axle BBs OK - Any 48p gears only
3/32" front axles would be period correct.
Modern wheels/tires would make sense. No speed rubber.
body max = 3.25w x 2.0h x 8.0l
Champion and Mura - D or C-can motors ( one hole - two hole) No BBs
Ceramic Mags.
Any Arm
That's it !!!

Kings at CLR 1st and then BPR 2nd - these cars will be a handful and "drivers" will be important. Impound rule - No tune ups by home trackers.

How about points only count from your cars best lane total from either track.

This could help take out variables from different drivers, lane luck, wrecks, marshalls, etc..... like a one race shootout on two different tracks.

[Bill from NH]

1/16" piano wire dropped front axles would be more period correct than a 3/32" axle.

[havlicek]

When I think about "thingies" now (I'm not at all sure I even knew of them back in the '60's, and don't recall the word at all), I see a movement to make slot cars more of a separate form from the motorized scale racer that represents a 1:1 car fairly faithfully. In other words, the chassis, body and motor were fit together to make a miniature racing car that was optimized for one thing...going fast on a slot car track. I guess the thingie enthusiasts might feel that this is an even more "pure" form of slotcar, but I think it's just a single "genre" of slotcar and it's easy to see now how this became the modern wing-racer. Doing this all from a modern perspective, we have the ability to limit some aspects of this...like the motor and the chassis. Without some form of motor/chassis limit, this all becomes wing car racing PDQ and that's a great thing too, but is already covered. Back then, they used whatever was the fastest motor they could stuff into one of these things. Now, we can say..."let's do it as if it were 1970" (or whatever year you want to specify). So a modern strap motor in a ridiculously lightweight and ultra engineered chassis doesn't make any sense. Otherwise (and besides some logical modern exceptions like tires of course), a "thingie" race now should be exactly what they were then...wide-open and "to the period". Any other arbitrary rules other than say specifying 1/8th inch axles (that one seems OK for the period, but not really important either way) are more likely than not just unecessary. I wouldn't get into a particular type of guide flag (the cars will just have to be driven and marshalled more carefully) or a body material and thickness...body type and design...YES!

So that's my long-winded way of saying I think Bob I has it right I'm not sure about the no ball bearings thing (or even why?), but I don't care either way about that. The cars should be built and driven and if the chassis falls apart because of a wall-shot or if the motor goes south, that's the way the "cookie would have crumbled" (as it were ) in a race anyway!

-john

[Jairus]

Guys, I have already started collecting parts. My plan is to have a car built and tested on B.P. King track to set a standard before the end of the year.
Of course I will report back.
Bill is correct however, Thingies back then used pinhole fronts or none at all. Some of the European Thingies (yeah, it was big there and we can learn a thing or two from them) even mounted unflanged 1/4" OD ball bearings as front wheels! (saaayyyy that could work!)

As for more rules or less rules... I would say that the only rule is keep the parts no newer than 1970. That allows the Jet Flag guide. Arguably one of the best ever made and still available cheaper than a JK graphite guide.
Ceramic magnets (Non-segmented), any wind, motors up to 1970. In-line only.
Elephant ears.... I don't know yet. Were they used then? I know that Certus and Champion played with various brass, copper and aluminum shapes. Vitter showed that to us years ago.
But the only thing available right now seem to be old Parma items. So that is still yet to be determined. John strongly suggests it if we are going to run two races.
1/16" min. clearance
3 1/4" max. width
2" max. height

By the way, considering two races. One at B.P. (the birthplace of the Choti) and one at Eddies in the Bay Area. Hoping to get either Dave or Darryl to host that race.
Of course all this is not yet set in stone and will not be until the end of the current proxy.
But, if anyone wants to build and test... we all will be very interested in seeing the results.

[Gator Bob]

Bill, John, Jairus all good points,

Any or No front axle/wheels. The unflanged bearings as fronts would be unkind to the track owners surface.

Any motor bearings or bushings.

As far as production heat sinks in 1970, don't remember but during a brief return in 1973 they were available OTC. Savvy motor constructors were probably making their own prior to that.

I don't think any in-line cars of that period were running 3/32" rear axles. But we do in modern Retro.

These cars should run very low or sub 4 seconds at BPR.....

12v.... Right ?

[Bill from NH]

Regarding heatsinks, the Mura aluminum plates that set behind brass backing plates were probably the first available. Those were available for the "A" & "B" can endbells. The first production heatsinks I saw were the Parma elephant ears. I don't know the exact year they became available, but I'd guess 1970. I think I read somewhere that Dan Dougherty had invented them while working at Parma. Dan now races retro cars both down south & in the midwest. Somebody might ask him when he's next seen. The top & front pieces in aluminum & copper, made for "C" cans came later, I'd say 1971 & 72. The ones I've had were made by CT pro Walt Labree, then a machinist at Pratt-Whitney Aircraft in Hartford. Several other people, such as Russ Boyington, also sold these heatsinks made by Walt.