112 replies to this topic

[Matt Bruce]

Perception is a powerful thing. If it is perceived that Ron gets to build his own motors where nobody else gets the chance to then that is going against the written rule which states no one is allowed to work on their own engines. That being said, the fact that he is a rebuilder and have the ability to blueprint his engines no matter who seals them is another factor. This really is not about how good someone is or what a great guy someone is, this is really all about being fair and in the eyes of many the rule is not being followed thus the perception enters. Personally I don't think it would matter, but if it would satisfy the majority of racers out there then I believe it's a topic the IRRA should discuss. We all have made sacrifices over the years to keep things fair and I have been no exception, so if him running Proslot seals only would satisfy the doubters then so b it. I don't think it's gonna make a hill of beans difference just like the gear rule or the body rule and so on. And I'm sure Ron wouldn't care either.

[Noose]

Guess no one read that this is already being worked huh?

Its a lot of perception that's for sure.

[MantaRay]

So Howie Ursaner is accusing Ron of cheating.
Sore loser, move on or make up more rules for retro.
Maybe you guys should run open motors instead.

Always good to hear from a non participant....LoL

[Mopar Rob]

Personally, I don't think anything in Ron's motors is illegal.

What advantage he does have over his fellow A main racers such as Matt, Howie, Jay and Chris by rebuilding his own motos is:

He knows what the airgap is
He knows what the armature timing is
He knows the com diameter
He knows the magnet strength

Therefore in theory he'll know what type of motors to bring to a particular track.

[Howie Ursaner]

you know, with the whole retro and proslot thing the idea is to have a simple equal type of motor that is economical and feasible. What is occuring with the Pro Slot motor is that people are acquiring 50 or more of these in search of a few good ones. Why is spending $2000 for motors necessary? Something is wrong here. People are matching magnets, setting the air gaps, rebuilding the brush structure, running weird brush arrangements ,cutting coms small, and custom balancing and so on and sending the motors to be sealed. This is not in the spirit of what the whole Retro and Proslot thing was supposed to be about. If this continues then IRRA should be looking for another motor that can be cheap, consistent and run unmodified. This is turning into a modified motor
program.

Say what you will but at the R4 you could hear the sound of certain motors that were not the sounds that come from normal Proslot motors. There were many that noticed this and we are not stupid or delusional.

[Mopar Rob]

Its a lot of perception that's for sure.

Yea, it definetly is or at least the perception the IRRA BoD is trying to portray with this "bag motor" garbage.

First aren't all these motors supposed to start out in a bag? Yes in theory someone can buy just one motor off the wall and it can be a bullet, but most have to buy more than one.

Personally, the motors that I bought off the wall that were fast, came back just as fast or faster after rebuild. The motors that were turds off the wall were turds after rebuild. All it was was a waste of another $15. Might have well just thrown $60 in the garbage can

[race301]

we are not stupid or delusional ???

Its the best sealed racing class there is, and he would still run up front with a bag motor at every race

[Howie Ursaner]

we are not stupid or delusional ???

Its the best sealed racing class there is, and he would still run up front with a bag motor at every race

yeah yeah yeah i know and he would win with a bag over his head also

[Steve Deiters]

In the big picture of things the races that were run last weekend were not determined by horsepower when you look at the lap totals and the qualifying times at the top of the grids. They are as tight as they can get. I've noticed a trend, as have others, that the competition is getting faster and more bunched up at the higher levels. For those of us in the back of the field the goal posts keep moving, but that's OK. This R4 was no different. I stayed till the last segment of the last race and it was as competitve as I have ever seen. Last year the CanAm race was a barnburner and Matt Bruce won and Ron lost. No one said anything then. This year the race was barnburner also and Ron won...by a little over a lap over Chris R. after battling it out for eight segments. It was hammer and tong the whole way. In fact Ron had to dig himself out of a hole early on.

Ron, Rande and Terry made several trips to the T/T prior to the R/4 race for R&D and it paid off for them on race day. Are we to fault them that they did their homework? I would hope not. The fact of the matter is that over the years they have kept setting the standard higher and higher for the upper level and lower level racers and retro racing as a whole has moved forward...a bunch. If someone would have told me based on my experience in the late '60's and early '70's that these inline cars, with non-aero bodies, and motors with wimpy small diameter wire on the arms would be going this fast I would have told them they were crazy. But they are going that fast.

Jan Limpach said this a long time ago and it's still true today: "You get out of this what you put into it."

[Greg VanPeenen]

Noose,

I read you post before that it is being worked on, so I am waiting to see what you come up with.

Ron is a great racer and has always been a great help when asked a question. I agree with Matt it is a matter of perception. Perception of the possibility of hanke panke with the motors. That is what is on the racers minds.

I in no way believe that Ron needs to cheat to win.

With that said, I await the boards solution. Let us hope its not running just FK motors.

Regards,
Greg V

[Ron Hershman]

Simple solution.............

Use Hand out P-S PD motors are all IRRA Premier events.

Each day, each class racers have to buy new hand out motors for the class that day. If a racer finds a "good one" well he gets to use it only in the class/day he pulled the motor. Next day.....luck of the draw will be on.

Everyone is the same boat...... everyone has the same luck pulling a motor.

No need to worry about air gaps, timing, magnet strength, reforming brush hoods, sending out arms for custom balancing and whatever points have been brought up here.

No one has to worry about motors leaving the raceway as they will be handed out on race morning installed, practiced and then tech'ed and impounded.

How many of you here and have posted and also race at IRRA Premier events would go along with this proposal?

[Howie Ursaner]

we are not discussing any of this Steve. We are talking fundamentals and truths. Of course you need the whole package and Ron would win with anything and deserves to because he works hard at it.There must however be an equal playing field. and right is right.

[NJ SpeedZone]

So we all get Richie Austin cars for the SANO ??????? That would be equal right?

[Greg VanPeenen]

Ron,

Would you then have to use that one motor for practice, qualifying, and up to 3 races with the current race format?

Greg V

[Ron Hershman]

So we all get Richie Austin cars for the SANO ??????? That would be equal right?

Jay it's not the car or the driver..... it's the motor.

Everyone wants Howie's Sano motor.

[Gator Bob]

Take perception and turn it into promotion. See the locked post for more info.

Where is Vince McMahon? Oh....it's a holiday, so today we can all be green with envy.

Not long ago there was Tony Stewart vs. Carl Edwards.

Like Duffy said - Ron is in all the Carl's heads (and most of your motors too).
If anyone thinks he can't be beat because of his motors he is in your head before you even unload your cars.

[Ron Hershman]

Ron,

Would you then have to use that one motor for practice, qualifying, and up to 3 races with the current race format?

Greg V

Yep and I see no problem with racers being able to purchase up to one additional motor per class.

Of course the extra/back-up motor would have to be teched in at the same time as the car and impounded until needed.

The PD motors will go the distance no problem.......... at TT and Speedzone the annual enduro races have proved time and time again the PD motors will last for 3,000 plus laps on a given day.

[Greg VanPeenen]

How about this,

Back up motor can only be used if the primary motor fails

Greg V

[Ron Hershman]

How about this,

Back up motor can only be used if the primary motor fails

Greg V

Agreed

[Mopar Rob]

Simple solution.............

Use Hand out P-S PD motors are all IRRA Premier events.



How many of you here and have posted and also race at IRRA Premier events would go along with this proposal?

Gee......didn't Larry Mattingly suggest something similar about 2 years ago?

[Ron Hershman]

Gee......didn't Larry Mattingly suggest something similar about 2 years ago?

Yes it always gets suggested when something like this comes up and the "perception" thing.

I don't see anyone going for it that posted here so far and races at IRRA Premier events.

I am all for it..... how about the rest of you guys??? Yea or nay???

[John Miller]

I was in the tech line with Ron for GTC and I mentioned how wise it was to have Joe engrave over the counter motors.

Ron handed me the car and I asked him what he did to tune the motor for it to be so quick. He said: I dropped in Koford BF II's and broke it in.

The bottom line is that an over the counter motor will run with best of them with the proper tuning and brushes.

Motor brushes are finicky and the weakest link in going fast, but a few guys have figured that out. (Athough, there are hundreds of factors that make the top ten guys go fast.)

If there is a concern about the rebuilding process then eliminate the seals and let everyone rebuild there own motors.

The guys that don't want to rebuild their own can still use the rebuilding service.

[Josh Crutchfield]

Ron,

I say Nay. Why change the rules to please a couple people.

BTW, maybe they will add you can no longer use O/S bodies since you make them too.
LOL....


Josh

[Ron Hershman]

Ron,


BTW, maybe they will add you can no longer use O/S bodies since you make them too.
LOL....


Josh

Well how about if they have a "Tru Scale" sticker on them???

[Tom Thumb Hobbies]

IMO a handout PD is not the best solution to this issue. It will dramatically increase the cost of attending these races. Which will, in turn, crush the number of entires. I know, some will say that the racers will spend that money anyway buying PD motors from their home raceways. True. But that perception thing will make them feel that the trip to those races just got almost $100 more expensive.

The easiest and cheapest would be to have Ron H use ProSlot refurbs and if Dan D ever races retro then Ron H will return the favor. No perception of cheating at that point. And no special access claims either. But something tells me that won't stop the wondering why he is so fast.

I have watched Ron lose the drag race to the deadman enough times to know that motor is NOT what puts him out front.