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Understanding the evolution of the "16D" motor


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#51 Jocke P

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 09:41 AM

I am afraid I might have distorted this thread with questions about other size motors, being new to the Slotblog I am still Learning how to go about it...

 

The reason for me asking is that I have seen some ads on eBay and other sites where motors have been called 36D and the description has mentioned FT16... It is clear from the picture that there is a size difference hence two completely different motors.

 

Please feel free to remove posts if you want to tidy up the topic, thank you for help sorting out the differencces.


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#52 don.siegel

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 04:48 PM

Jocke, 

 

Don't worry about it  - we love talking about motors! 

 

John, 

 

Just checked a couple of mine, a 36D and a Nascar and both checked out at .091, although fluctuating a bit on .090, using my super-duper digital calipers... (ie, made in China...). 

 

I remember that you posed the question at some point and there was a thread, but didn't remember if there were any firm conclusions. 

 

Don 



#53 havlicek

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 06:11 PM

Hi Don,

 

     I just went down and checked a half dozen or so, and on my "decent" calipers I get .090"...but fluctuating every so often downwards.  It's probably past the ability of my calipers to resolve to that accuracy, so I guess we're getting pretty much the same result!? :)  Anyway, the .093" number is definitely wrong.  Interestingly, the new Mabuchi motors in the "FT36D" size (although round cans) have the exact same size shaft material.  So even though it's a really odd size with no exact metric equivalent, it's apparently a size that's "out there" for some reason.  On another side note, the armatures in these new motors are very close to the same diameter as the old "36D" arms, but the old ones are lighter and work better.  Back "on topic", the old "16D" armature laminations also work very well.  There were some things about those old motors that they either "did right"...or just got lucky with!

 

-john


John Havlicek

#54 zipper

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 05:04 AM

Might be the same axle as used on 360 type electric motors - shaft nominally 2.3 mm =.9055"


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#55 havlicek

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:59 AM

Might be the same axle as used on 360 type electric motors - shaft nominally 2.3 mm =.9055"

 

Could be (sounds very close), but it's still a weird "shaft" size (an "axle" is what carries wheels and/or gears), and Mabuchi has stuck with it since...forever.

 

-john


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#56 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 12:11 PM

2.3mm and 3.175mm motor shafts are very popular in Asia.

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#57 TSR

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 02:00 PM

http://lamar.colosta...onal.html#japan

 

That may explain some of the issues about the shaft diameters, but the basic train-motor shafts had been "3/32" well before WW2 and the Japanese simply copied for years what round eyes were doing, for much of their fledgling industries! The slot car motors followed and when Mabuchi produced their FT36, there was no reason to go smaller. The FT16 presented a new challenge, that of stack webbing, and a smaller shaft was necessary to allow enough wire to fit. Hence, a 2mm shaft, or in fact, for a 2mm bearing, the shaft being 1.98mm, or... 0.078".


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#58 havlicek

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 02:21 PM

Thanks for that Philippe!  Makes some sense out of why the shaft diameter wouldn't be a precise/"round" number.

 

-john


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#59 TSR

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 02:59 PM

And of course I should add that the BEARING diameter was 3/32", the shafts would be smaller, like anything between 0.89" to 0.091" explaining why the shafts on those old arms are always below the 0.093" diameter, otherwise they would not fit inside the bearing!



#60 Jocke P

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:53 PM

Did Japanese manufacturers ever make anything but metric unless specified in orders? I cannot remember any.
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#61 Gator Bob

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:59 PM

Much of the packaging of the day for 36D components would say  "3/32" undersize (.091)".


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#62 don.siegel

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 05:03 PM

Did Japanese manufacturers ever make anything but metric unless specified in orders? I cannot remember any.

 

Yes, the Japanese manufacturers also made a number of model train motors and then that style (open-frame, or Pittman style) for slot cars, all with 3/32 shafts, like the Strombecker, Aristo-Craft and other models. These already had the standard 3/32" shaft, so they just kept to that. 

 

Don 


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#63 TSR

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 06:54 PM

Mabuchi, Igarashi, KTM, Johnson and many other motor manufacturers in Japan and Hong Kong made 80-90% of all model trains sold in America in the 1960s.



#64 CaptREDD

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 05:53 PM

The Mura Mini-Brute motor was shorter than the Mura "16D"... the can was shorter... 26D arms worked... but the reddish-brown "rubber"  magnets were barely magnets... I have seen better refrigerator magnets... at least the two Mini-Brutes I bought new were that way...

 

Redd


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#65 hiline2

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 09:06 AM

Speaking of motors, allow me to ask on this one.

 

A eBay snag that interested me. At first I thought it might be a "French" but once in hand and the body off I discovered this motor (the yellowish color is slightly deceptive, it is more like an old French). It has a nice wound and balanced motor and spools up nicely (once I got the crown gear free, it was all bound up against the pinion). 

 

Any ideas?  

 

20171029_155459.jpg

 

20171029_155446.jpg


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#66 don.siegel

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 09:47 AM

Yes... and no. 

 

I've found two or three of these Tracker motors on eBay, so it was another rewind company, like French. But I have never found any other information on them: no ads in the period mags, and they were never mentioned. 

 

Very similar to the French motors, simple rewind, epoxy, and balance of the Russkit 23 type motor, nothing but 16D size found. 

 

Don 


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#67 TSR

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 04:10 PM

I believe seeing an advert within and advert some place but I could be wrong. In any case, the only model that appears to have been produced is that yellow FT16D with EBD.

tracker.jpg


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#68 TSR

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 06:53 PM

Well, Don, I did not see an advert, I saw a catalog because I just dug it up from the LASCM library!  It is a four-page folder, with very few products really...

cat_1_500.jpg

cat_2_500.jpg

Mystery solved. The motor's stock number is #1000. Now read these instructions and ask yourself what is going to happen when you will want to take the motor apart and the endbell tabs fall on the floor...  :)

cat_3_1.jpg

The Mura pin tabs may be a pain in the behind, but at least, they did not force the poor kid to look for an electric drill and some screws to keep the thing together after the 25,000 (scale) miles service! 

 


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#69 don.siegel

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 03:27 AM

Thanks, Philippe, pretty amazing you guys found that catalog. From California of course, but SF... a Mura competitor! 

 

Funny too that the company is Trackers and the motor is Tracker... 

 

Don 



#70 Cheater

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 08:23 AM

Don,

 

'Trackers" in the artwork, but "Tracker Motors" and "Tracker Products" in the last scan PdL posted. 


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#71 TSR

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 08:51 AM

"Trackers" in the sense that all their products were...  :)
 



#72 don.siegel

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 09:31 AM

The Mura pin tabs may be a pain in the behind, but at least, they did not force the poor kid to look for an electric drill and some screws to keep the thing together after the 25,000 (scale) miles service! 

 
Funny how much the idea of drilling into an endbell seems to have panicked people at the time (and I still try to avoid it, but when ya gotta, ya gotta!). I've found lots of motors with the endbells either epoxied on, or with the Mura stay clips, or with a bent tab soldered onto the motor! 
 
Don



#73 TSR

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 10:53 AM

Don, yes indeed.

Mura made some wire forms designed to retain the endbell on the can after the tabs broke, for the ones with no soldering or drilling talents.

For the FT16/16D, the stock number was M-138, and for the FT26/26D, M-139.

#74 Gator Bob

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 11:58 AM

The Mura retainers actually work OK. Here is a set I made up just for fun. 
 
From DC-Punk -

 

May 22, 2016 at 11:52pm

Note the spring tabs holding it together, Mura came out with the idea for a one-piece clip per side; this is four individual piano wires.

 
IMG_4436.JPG

IMG_4442.JPG


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Posted 03 November 2017 - 12:29 PM

These wire forms were obviously not the best solution since the Mabuchi endbell could move and rotate inside the can by as much as 2-degree radially and laterally! So these would only work if one shims the endbell first with small brass spacers, top and bottom. Can't do anything laterally except masking tape...

"Drill, baby, drill!"


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#76 hiline2

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 10:34 PM

Thanks, guys, for the info on the "Tracker"!! :good:  :victory:


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#77 havlicek

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 07:57 AM

What Philippe said (of course!). 

Two screws diagonally placed on the curved sides of the can will (in most cases) lock the endbell in place well enough and still allow for easy opening. For extra "bombproofing," four screws is even better for the terminally anal-retentive and is why it's the standard to this day... at least for motors people are supposed to be able to work on, and even some that they aren't!  :D
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