209 replies to this topic

[IRRA Retro Racing]

Due to the continuing uncertainty regarding availabilty of the Falcon 7 motor, the IRRA™ BoD has voted to "unfreeze" the FK section of the IRRA™ approved motor list and to accept submissions of similar motors for consideration to be added to the list. Submitted motors must meet the same wind specs of 65 turns, wire size, etc., and must deliver a similar level of performance compared to motors currently on the approved list.

New motor submissions will be accepted until September 1, 2013. Samples of submitted motors will need to be sent to each of the five IRRA™ Board members for inspection and testing.

Preliminary testing of 65t motors has been conducted at IRRA™ request by Tony P and Trinity, and the company is expected to submit a motor for consideration.

(posted for the IRRA™ Board by Mike McMasters)

[slotcarone]

It's about time--we need some new "muscle"!!!!

[Rick]

A bit premature, don't you think? Until the Falcon 7 arrives and proves to be not acceptable, the lock down should stay in place. Looking a lot like self service from the cheap seats.................

[MSwiss]

A bit premature, don't you think?No, not at all.

 
The IRRA™ has been more than patient in this matter.
 
Here's a post from Raisin in case you missed it.
 

 We should all ask ourselves this, Are we running equipment other racers can not even buy over the counter?

 
"If you're running a Falcon 7, you are. I have been trying to get them so I can run Retro but it seems there are none to be had. Makes me wonder why a racing series is based on a motor I can't buy.
 
I know that's a bit off topic, just venting my frustrations... sorry.
 
Raisin"
 
The Falcon 7 hasn't been available from a distributor in, what, seven months?
 
If this was a isolated incident, I'd say wait.
 
But along with Mike McMasters not being able to get F7s for R4/6, I wasn't able to get them for Sano 5, 17 months earlier.
 
Raceways are tired of having to settle for D3s for handouts at premier events, with the extras much harder to sell, being a single purpose, inline motor.

[Tim Neja]

TSR motors are still available--why not run those until the 7 becomes available again??  We've found them to be as fast or certainly equal to the Falcon on the King our here at BPR?  Who else is making a motor with Falcon specs?? The Evil and Demon aren't.  Just curious who's stepping up with a new motor?
 

[Gator Bob]

FWIW .. I have been testing them .. evils and demons ..  in C/A cars and I can tell you they are no 'giant killer' about a tenth off my PD motors... about the same as a TSR-D3.

All my testing was on the 145ft Hillclimb at Bill Pinch's place. 

 

Why was I testing them ... I need practice on the track and set-up too ... saving money and saving the PD's for race day. 

I figured they would be looked at when submission opened again. Didn't know it was coming this soon .. but ... if there is a shortage of F7s then the time would be right .... 

 

Rick, IMO I'm not seeing cheap seats, if your basis is on the fact that tony/Trinity is on the board that wouldn't be much differnt then what was going on in the 'old' D3. ... No?  If the series is (almost) down a motor then it is time to stop, look and listen. Seems proactive not to wait till the well runs dry.

[TSR]

The new Falcon 7 batch is on its way. 

The TSR motors are in plentiful supply.

Both are legal per IRRA frozen rules.

[Rick]

I did not miss Raisins post. Raisin is just getting back into the loop.

 

Each year the R4 swaps the F7 and the TSR motor, this year was the turn for the TSR motor. No harm, no foul

 

We are looking for and dealing with in line cars, not angle winders. That is a whole other topic. It doesn't matter what rotation they have.

 

ANY track owner with as long a track record, as Tom Thumb, could get with any distributor/manufacturer a consignment deal and then send back unsold motors, as long as they are not marred. And you Swiss could do the same. So being stuck with TSR motors, is moot.

 

It's still looking like self service from the cheap seats..............................

[MSwiss]

The new Falcon 7 batch is on its way. 

 

You've been saying that for 6 or more months.

 

You say they are being changed.to compete with the Evil 9.

 

Then they are not.

 

Then you are not sure.

 

As some point , when the story continually changes, and motors don't materialize in any form,

something has to be done. 

[MSwiss]

I did not miss Raisins post. Raisin is just getting back into the loop.

 

What does that have do with anything ?

 

His opinion doesn't count then?

[Rick]

What does that have do with anything ?

 

His opinion doesn't count then?

No, I didn't imply that at all. You brought him into the thread, not me.

 

Several people then posted several locations to secure F7 motors. So your point is?....................

[MSwiss]

 

 

ANY track owner with as long a track record, as Tom Thumb, could get with any distributor/manufacturer a consignment deal and then send back unsold motors, as long as they are not marred. And you Swiss could do the same. So being stuck with TSR motors, is moot.

 

 

Here is Mike McMaster's comment, back in January, in reference to the TSR motor.

"When I use them it is not easy to get rid of the excess."

 

I engrave all of mine ahead of time, to avoid confusion, double numbering, and to save time in a busy part of the program.

 

To go along with that, the TSR's don't count reliably with the race program on my King.

 

I have racers in a hurry to test their motor, to determine if it's good, and they can't even get a time until the motor breaks in,

which may not happen at all.

 

Some TSR's never count reliably.

 

I had to hand count Rich Attee's laps at Sano 5.

 

Even at the end of the 24 minute race, it was counting intermittently.

 

Before you say, "fix your computer", other raceways have mentioned the same problem with the TSR's.

 

The low timing doesn't create enough back EMF.

[MSwiss]

 Several people then posted several locations to secure F7 motors. So your point is?....................

How does that help me, or other raceways sell them, especially if we need them as a handout ? 

 

How long does a dist. have to be out, before you would consider it a problem?

[MSwiss]

No, I didn't imply that at all.  ......

Then why did you comment?

 

"Raisin is just getting back into the loop"

 

LOL

[Gator Bob]

Did I miss the part where the F7 is outlawed if the Trinity is approved?

 

If the new one IS different I would suspect that a re-cert would be required.

[Rick]

Then why did you comment?

 

"Raisin is just getting back into the loop"

 

LOL

Because it's true. He is trying to buy locally but they don't have any. OMFG! You above anyone should know about this as you sell to many many other raceways local racers with products you sell or have first dibs on that other tracks don't even know they are in production yet.  You sure you want to go here?......................This is about a replacement Falcon 7 motor, and the real deal Falcon 7 is suppose to be available any day now according to the announcement everyone got a couple of months ago. If it is indeed the same motor we all know and there is another 10K of them available, why the urgency to push thru a new 65 turn motor? Seems pretty transparent to me.

 

Secondly we are dealing with in-lines and rotation has no bearing on those cars. TSR are supposed to be available in vast quantities and from prior postings the motor of choice by some BoD racers over the F7, stating they were more consistent. I can go find the posts, if needed.

 

Now the door has been opened up on a stable, what if 3 more 65 turn motors are submitted for testing and approval? Who is doing this testing? Who is making the call. I could even have samples in 3 weeks for a submittal.Where is the stability thing you guys have been preaching? That is what makes a successful organization. Not knee jerk reactions to assumptions. We may have had a shortage in the past, but that is the past, and let us deal with the here and now, before we open the gates of hell..........................

[John Streisguth]

"Any day now according to the announcement everyone got a couple of months ago"...kinda sums it up right there, doesn't it.

 

And if you can have samples in 3 weeks, why has it taken months to get the new F7 here?  Something isn't adding up, unless Somalian pirates have hijacked the ship.

 

Unavailability of Falcon 2 motors is why I stopped racing jaildoors for a period.  Yeah, SOME people had them, but if the 3 distributors my local raceway dealt with couldn't get them how does that make them "readily available"?

 

I say open the door, get another motor or two in the mix, and the put the freeze back on.

[One_Track_Mind]

Or Two! Into the mix would make it a lot better IMHO.

[Noose]

If the Falcon 7 that eventually arrives on that slow boat from China does is not the same it would not be approved as being a Falcon 7. 

[Cheater]

FWIW the BoD's decision to unfreeze the motor list due to F7 availability problems was unanimous; no dissenters.

 

IRRA™'s viewpoint is by choice the overall Retro racing genre. In summary, the BoD felt that the more damaging course for IRRA™ Retro racing would be not addressing the motor availability issue.

[Pappy]

I say open the door, get another motor or two in the mix, and the put the freeze back on.

 

I agree. Why does the motor have to be 65 turns? Seems to me that if you find a motor that is the same speed it shouldn't matter how many turns are on it. Didn't the IRRA™ do testing with the Falcon 7 motor against the ProSlot 4002 and 4002B and determine they were all basically the same speed? I still think the IRRA™ should do some testing with the FK 180 motors that they use in 1/32 scale.

[Noose]

Butch, the specs on the TSR and the current F7 were tested for performance against the PDs. Thus, the spec of 65 turns was deemed to be the spec. If it wasn't, then the door would have been open for the 60 turn Evil 9 and Demon. 

 

I think the results and times as seen at RetroPalooza bear this out when you look at the GTC-FK times vs. the GTC -PD times. And that was on a King where a PD normally would be quicker.  On a shorter track they are equal with the FK typically being somewhat better especially on lower powered tracks.

[Pappy]

Butch, the specs on the TSR and the current F7 were tested for performance against the PDs. Thus, the spec of 65 turns was deemed to be the spec. If it wasn't, then the door would have been open for the 60 turn Evil 9 and Demon.

That's on that motor, Noose. I'm not an expert on motors but isn't it possible to wind a motor that has different turns, different wire size, different magnets, different brushes, etc. and gear it differently to get the same speed.

 

After all I think that's what you are ultimately looking for is a motor that will keep up with your current motors but not have an advantage over them.

[NJ Racer]

I still believe the PS4002 is a great alternative/option to the FK providing Pro Slot can handle the supply/demand.

[John Streisguth]

That's on that motor, Noose. I'm not an expert on motors but isn't it possible to wind a motor that has different turns, different wire size, different magnets, different brushes, etc. and gear it differently to get the same speed.

 

After all I think that's what you are ultimately looking for is a motor that will keep up with your current motors but not have an advantage over them.

 

I would guess that it would only be possible to achieve that if you compared them on one track/one power supply. You start running them on different tracks and you'll get different results.