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#701 Jacob Shiplet

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 10:00 AM

Tony, let's just hope the five board members don't cop that attitude for the sake of Retro.

Larry, I really don't know what the problem is. Just change the rules in Penn/Ohio to make the flexi parts legal. Isn't that what you guys do? The board said no to .790 tires because it would have required a lot guys to purchase or make new chassis which cost a lot of money. So you change the rules to allow .790 tires and lower the clearance. So you broke two rules, third times a charm.



wow Butch, way to stick your foot in your mouth. I applaud the PO for doing what their racers wanted. If they find out it doesnt work, no harm done. Just like the ORS has listened to its racers and brought in a faster class in the RP. Why bring it up? Because you cant defend your arguement so you decide to throw it back at Larry and the PO? .
Do you know the difference between education and experience? Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.




#702 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 10:01 AM

Butch

No new F1 chassis' will need to be constructed to race in Penn-Ohio...

I'll use the same F1 chassis at Bristolville's P-O race on Sept. 11 and the ORS race at TT on Sept. 18... ;)

Not convinced? Ask Hershman... ;)

LM

#703 Rick

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 10:07 AM

Just re-read what I wrote, it pretty much explains it. Since the steel nose piece/guide tongue is legal why don't you get on the band wagon and start producing them. We can always use more parts to make scratch building easier. :)

Butch, ok, thi may get lengthy.

First off I won't be producing any steel parts.

Secondly, if one makes comments or suggestions or rebuttles, they are labeled a "troublemaker", sobeit. Label me.

Slick 7 came out with a real easy chassis kit and was quickly voted down for keyed parts, because it wasn't retro, wasn't "in the spirit". No more, no less than a total steel guide tongue. You have to pick a side of the fence you like. FX was also booted for the same reasons. It all would have been easier to swallow if the stamped steel chassis part would have also be allowed. And why would I want to do all that work, if I could buy a ready made part for 5 bucks? Because rule out the flexi part appears biased.

The steel guide tongue is not any performance advantage except for durability. If we want to make them more durable, then we should also permit steel motor brackets, a fragile area of any car. But the rules state brass only.

Will it make more racers gravitate away from kits and start to build scratch, probably not. But how does this make it easier to scratch build? Would it not be just the same made out of brass? Want it stronger, make it thicker. I was opposed to the kits initally but found out I was not going to be part of it unless I jumped on board and tried to build a better mousetrap.

You stated you were disgusted with retro going to way of USRA. We have entered a grey area and IRRA has done what USRA has done many times. A part is manufactured and the rules are adjusted to embrace said new part. Bidness as usual. We all knew the intent of the rule. This was not it. I try to color in the lines.

Will it chase away racers from retro, again, probably not.

The toughest thing in rules is to take out personal feelings and keep objective. What message do we want to send out? Consistancy is the reason some ruling bodies endure and why some do not.

BAD Rick....................

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#704 Pappy

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 10:07 AM

No new F1 chassis' will need to be constructed to race in Penn-Ohio...

Larry, let me just reply to this in Rick's own words back in post #691. "no matter how much you guys try to candy coat this thing, it's just wrong."

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#705 Cheater

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 10:45 AM

I applaud the PO for doing what their racers wanted.

Jacob,

If you believe that letting the racers dictate the direction of the rules is the superior approach, I would suggest you spend a little time reviewing the 40+ year history of the USRA or any other racing organization, including 1:1, where such an approach has been used. Take a hard look at where the USRA is today, too.

Racers almost always support or propose rules and rule changes that sync with their personal preferences, and are almost never guided by such irrelevant concerns as long-range goals.

As for all the pontificating that the BoD's decision is "wrong", perhaps someone will point to any set of car construction rules in slot racing history that generated notable growth in participation over a period of years simply because the car rules were "right"?

Those who believe that the minute details of the rules governing car construction are significant factors in the success of IRRA Retro racing, or who believe this recent decision will result in a massive reduction in the number of racers, are focused on the grass and are ignoring the forest.

Gregory Wells

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#706 Ron Hershman

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 11:01 AM

OK STOP!!!

The recent decision, as well as some of the past decisions that the IRRA BoD have made, may not be "appreciated" by several here... That's fine.

But I have to ask all of you the following questions...

Are any of you going to quit racing because of this new piece being allowed? Please post if you are.

Do any of you feel that this new piece is going to give anyone a advantage over anyone else???

The BoD over a year ago made the decision to outlaw "guide holders" cut from Flexi chassis. The rule was made and posted. Very simply put... this practice was outlawed.

Then there was a decision to allow steel guide holders to either hold the guide or be used as reinforcement or in some cases both. With this ruling came some dimensions.

Now a manufacturer has READ the rules and produced the piece per the rules... can anyone tell us how the new piece DOES NOT meet the specs/rules???

The new piece is NOT cut from a Flexi chassis. Plain and simple... while it may appear to be the "same"... it's really not.

So while some of you want to state... it's not "retro"... well neither are shaker tubes, stainless pin tubing, bent-up front axle holders, lead wire retainers, the tires, the motors, the controllers, and the list can go on.

The only thing "retro" about it is people are actually soldering cars together... just like they did in the '60s. That's pretty much it.

There was no "favortism" towards Mike or the fact he is a BOD member... he READ the rules and produced a part that meets the rules. Plain and simple. Again... can any of you state where it does not meet the rules? You are all free to go out and produce the part and make it available if you want... the rules will work the same for you IF you READ and follow them.

I also brought up many of your concerns that you have posted here to the BoD before we made out final decision. You did not go unheard.

Please give it a rest. Nothing is going to change in this case... it's all been said.

#707 Jacob Shiplet

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 11:04 AM

Cheater,

I never said the PO was USRA. The PO racers wanted to run .790" tires, their board thought it over and deemed it wasn't a great change to the racing itself, but it would save the racers money. A small change with big rewards (in my opinion). They didn't approve any "new" said part, they actually went the other way and recycled tires.

If you are going to throw USRA and rule changes at me, maybe you should look in the mirror, isn't that what you and the BoD just did? The rule of the Good Ole Boys begins (or continues depending on how you look at it).
Do you know the difference between education and experience? Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you don't.

#708 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 11:15 AM

Cheater

As a sidebar to your comment about racers dictating the rules...

I just want to point out that NO vote was taken by the Penn-Ohio BoD regarding the tire size change in its F1 class.

P-O reacted to racers looking for ways to cut back on the amount of money it was costing them to have 'fun' playing with their toy cars at a race meet.

Really no different than NASCAR attempting to find ways to save its teams money regarding operating costs.

The P-O series did not change the F1 tire size to make the cars 'faster', or 'handle' better. In fact, no racer specifically 'asked' for the F1 tire size to be changed.

P-O changed the F1 tire size in order to give its racers the opportunity to save money if they choose to do so... Nothing more, nothing less.

I might also add that the Penn-Ohio board accomplished the above in a way that did not alter the basic IRRA construction criteria, or dimensions of an F1 car. The only difference between a P-O F1 car and an IRRA F1 car is rear tire size, and the resulting lower rear-end clearance.

If the P-O series was 'truly' anti-IRRA, as Butch keeps implying, then we would certainly have made wholesale changes to the Can-Am, Stock Car and Flexi-GT rule book.

LM

#709 Mr. Frank

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 11:47 AM

CHANGES TO STOCK CARS;;:shok: O yea,:D L T O stock cars on the way... And bigger tires too...;)




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#710 Cheater

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 12:17 PM

If you are going to throw USRA and rule changes at me, maybe you should look in the mirror, isn't that what you and the BoD just did? The rule of the Good Ole Boys begins (or continues depending on how you look at it).

Jacob,

Let me make it simple for you.

The USRA system for rule changes/addition is that USRA members submit proposals and then once or twice a year the USRA membership votes on those proposals.

The five members of the IRRA™ BoD propose rule changes themselves and also entertain rule changes suggested by racers, then discuss them at great length. After sufficient deliberation (and in some cases, the discussion continues for weeks), a vote is taken and the majority vote determines the question. (As an aside, the vote on the new steel guide tongues was not unanimous; they were board members who did not wish to permit them.)

Just how in the heck can you claim the USRA and IRRA are using the same procedure?

And if you believe that there is more "home-cooking" in IRRA™'s operations as compared to the USRA, then you obviously have never served as a national USRA official. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

As for your insulting Good Ole Boys comment, if you feel there's a organization in slot racing that is working harder, longer, and with more integrity to bring stability and growth to a very fragile leisure time activity, please go play in their sandbox.

Larry, thanks for your info, which seems to contradict Jacob's statement ("I applaud the PO for doing what their racers wanted."). If no vote was taken, then Jacob really can't know "what the racers wanted", can he?

My issue with the PO decision is that it is essentially fragmentation and that approach always brings negative results. There are ways PO could have attempted to work within the system, rather than immediately posting their contrary decision on the tire issue. Should the IRRA™ be thrilled that after years of working to get everyone on the same page, PO decided it wanted its own book?

Rick, you said: "A part is manufactured and the rules are adjusted to embrace said new part."

This is patently false, as no rules have been changed or "adjusted".

You also said, "Secondly, if one makes comments or suggestions or rebuttals, they are labeled a "troublemaker".

Believe it or not, Rick, your input and opinions (as well as those of anyone who comments on a pending question) are valued and are always considered during the deliberations leading up to the vote on any issue. But as members of the IRRA™ BoD, once a question has been voted on and decided, we're done and we move on to the next topic. That's really the only way a Board of Director's management structure can work. The participants simply must respect the process even when it results in decisions that are against their personal feelings.

My personal observation is that you are frequently in a small group who continue to pillory and excoriate the BoD after a decision has been rendered if that decision doesn't match up with your preference (and that is exactly what is occurring here). If the roles were reversed, would you appreciate or welcome being subjected to such treatment on a regular basis?

Gregory Wells

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#711 Marty Stanley

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 12:27 PM

I have a question for the BoD - Do you think we might make bearings an option on Flexi-GT? Aside from JK Spec, you have the option on every other class of IRRA cars. I'm just requesting that we allow ball bearings to be used on Flexi-GT. To me it's a maintenance issue. While ball bearings COULD be more expensive initially, in the long run, they are actually cheaper.

I had posted this question - obviously in mid-cyclonic action - and was wondering if it was overlooked with all the opinions and such that were being tossed around.

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#712 Cheater

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 12:38 PM

Marty,

The ball bearing question is under discussion, but the IRRA™ has from the beginning desired to freeze the rules for a year at a time and to update them on a twelve month cycle. Sometimes that is not possible, but there's no reason that a decision to allow chassis ball bearings in one or more classes can't wait until the next revision.

We're also discussing the advisability of posting a list of suggestions for rules or rules changes that will be on the table during the next rules revision.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#713 Rick

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 12:39 PM

Okie-dokie...

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#714 Marty Stanley

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 12:52 PM

Greg,

Thank you very much for your reply. Since there was a lot of water flowing under the bridge at that time, I wasn't sure if it had been seen.

Perhaps we could put a little "Referred to BoD" box in these type of posts so we know that they've been seen and don't have to bother y'all?

Just a suggestion.
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#715 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 01:19 PM

Larry, thanks for your info, which seems to contradict Jacob's statement ("I applaud the PO for doing what their racers wanted."). If no vote was taken, then Jacob really can't know "what the racers wanted", can he?

My issue with the PO decision is that it is essentially fragmentation and that approach always brings negative results. There are ways PO could have attempted to work within the system, rather than immediately posting their contrary decision on the tire issue. Should the IRRA™ be thrilled that after years of working to get everyone on the same page, PO decided it wanted its own book?

Greg,

NO, my info does NOT contradict Jacob's statement... He applauded the P-O for doing what their racers wanted...

The P-O reduced racers costs on race day and addressed the problem of them ending up with a plethora of under-sized tires.

Jacob is FROM Ohio, and has contact with enough P-O racers to know what their 'wants' are. 'Votes' have nothing to do with this issue.

As for your second commentary re: the P-O. I really don't want to belabor the decision that was made.

The P-O is a REGIONAL series that attracts racers from Pittsburgh, Erie, Cleveland, and Akron-Canton. The BoD made a decision that was economically beneficial to the participants who actually RACE in the series.

Again, nothing was 'fragmented' concerning the construction of the P-O F1 cars, which follow IRRA™ guidelines.

I find it a bit presumptuous that you state that this approach 'always brings negative results'. I guess saving racers money and trying to increase the number of racers is 'negative' in your mind.

It is really not the P-O series concern if the IRRA™ is 'thrilled', or not...

LM

#716 John Streisguth

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 01:45 PM

Uh, Larry, you said that no racer actually requested the tire rule change, but you said the BoD was responding to the racers wants? That seems contradictory to me. Could you clarify what you mean by the two statements?
"Whatever..."

#717 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:17 PM

Sure John

P-O racers were upset that they were 'using' up to 3-4 sets of .810 tires, with no outlet (other than Flexi-GT) to use the smaller tires...

Many P-O racers stated that they could no longer afford to spend $40-50 on tires per race meet. Not everyone is as well off financially as Retro East racers... :laugh2: Many P-O participants are 'Po folks'...

That translated to us a possible reduction of 'total' entries in the future, and racers having to pick and choose what classes they could afford to race...

The P-O Board addressed the above by installing .790 tires on the F1 cars, so undersized tires could be used. Same cars we raced for the past two years. Just allowing smaller tires to stretch the racers wallet.

Why F1, you ask? Because that is the last race on the class rotation. Could have just as easily been Can-Am or stock car...

Not a revolution...

Not a coup...

Not spitting on Superman's cape...

Just preserving and attempting to grow the P-O 'sand box'... ;)

LM

#718 Guillermo Suar

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:26 PM

Just curious. I usually set my cars to have minimum legal clearance with the minimum tire size. I'm guessing I'm not the only one. So, did the racers have to modify the chassis' axle height on the F1 cars, or the minimum clearance rule was also changed for the smaller tire size?Posted Image

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#719 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 02:30 PM

In order not to change the construction of the cars, the minimum rear clearance was lowered from .050 to .040.

Testing on an original American King found this to not be an issue.

LM

#720 Josh Crutchfield

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 05:40 PM

My issue with the PO decision is that it is essentially fragmentation and that approach always brings negative results. There are ways PO could have attempted to work within the system, rather than immediately posting their contrary decision on the tire issue. Should the IRRA™ be thrilled that after years of working to get everyone on the same page, PO decided it wanted its own book?


Cheater,

I don't feel it always brings negative results. Sometimes things need changed to keep racers coming back. With the economy the way it is saving as few bucks is a big deal.

I understand why the IRRA choose the rules they did when they formed the Can Am, F1, and GT Coupe.
But why didn't the IRRA use the D3 Stockcar and Retro Pro rules are something close to them.
Wouldn't that of helped keep everyone on the same page?
At least the Jaildoor rules are the same.

Josh

#721 DirtyHairy

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 05:47 PM

Because that would have been too easy... and then we wouldn't have anything to complain about... or would we?Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image
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#722 Ron Hershman

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 05:52 PM

But why didn't the IRRA™ use the D3 Stock Car and RetroPro rules or something close to them.

Wouldn't that have helped keep everyone on the same page?


Josh,

D3 allows anglewinder chassis in D3... IRRA™ wanted an inline Stock Car class.

IRRA™ did not want a anglewinder class (in regards to RetroPro) to be faster than the "premier" Can-Am and F1 classes.

#723 slotcarone

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 06:34 PM

:D This may seem like a silly question but why aren't the P-O racers using some type of Wonder rubber tires? I have used them at just about every track on the Retro East schedule and they work fine and will usually last five to six races before getting too small to tech.

I too don't have the bucks to buy many pairs of tires and this option works well for me here. Are the tracks that different that they will not work there?

Mike Katz

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#724 MantaRay

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 06:39 PM

Mike,

I have always "wondered" how you were able to use Wonder rubber. I have never been on a track that was so "stuck" that it needed "Wonder".
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#725 Mopar Rob

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 06:44 PM

Ray:

I ran Wonder on my JK spec car at last year's Sano.

BTW: Same pair of tires lasted about five races.

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