1441 replies to this topic

[Noose]

Hi Chris and Happy New year.

The problem is not the tire sizes and I do agree it can save money.

The problem is clearance and if the raceway owner will allow the rear to be less than the .050" to start. As you know, cuz I know you are right at the limit too many times, a lot of guys start the race with just over the min tire diameters and the .050" clearance. As you noted, the racing reduces the tire size and thus the clearance. Some track owners, and one is Mike McMasters at Tom Thumb - the home of the R4 - does not want this and in fact the local rules there require .050" front clearance on some classes if remember correctly (and if I don't I am sure Ron will correct me).

I'm glad you got to use one set of tires for the entire day. Was all the racing done on the same track and wasn't it a flat track? I have run there and I am sure the F1 with the smaller tires and lower clearance was probably just fine.

Lower clearances on those may not be as much a problem as it is or could be on the banked tracks. In fact, doesn't USRA require more clearance on banked tracks vs flat tracks?

One other problem is Alpha untreated tires, too. I use Alpha a lot and I know this has been discussed in the past and that is many times those particular tires right out of the tube barely make the legal limit. I know at our last race at SRR we had ten tubes of them where they might have been mismarked but all were .800" out of the tube.

The bottom line is we must adhere to what the track owners want and were they all to concur that the lower clearance to start with was OK then it could be time to allow the tire size change. It is because of the difference in clearance that the re-jigging to re-set the rear came up to begin with and yes, there were some thoughts and perhaps rightfully so, that a particular car will not work as well unless it was set-up correctly. Yours obviously does.

As for doing double tech. Been there and have done that. Yes, it can work but if the Can-Am and GTC-FK classes are being run the same day, as we did here the last race, we probably would have had less participants because several racers used the same cars and just changed motors and bodies. If it works in a region then great. I sure as heck don't want to be doing double tech at the big races. One at a time is enough! LOL.

[Chris Radisich]

Clearance is not an issue, for years ISRA, USRA and others have run much faster cars on banked tracks starting at .032, and at that up to GT12 cars with high downforce bodies, either soft or treated tires, plus of course all those classes run absolutely no clearance at the front. The tires actually slow down wear rates as they get smaller and the rubber gets harder towards the rim. While I was running the USRA there was an option for track owners to specify a higher clearance, but with traveling series such as the SoCal USRA, Norcal etc there was never an issue and we ran at the lower clearance on all tracks, including King tracks, even at Buena Park.

The key problem with clearance on banked tracks is the gear. if the gear is not hanging down below the chassis no damage is done to the track, and with Retro nothing is allowed to hang down below the chassis so there is no problem.

I would be interested to know how many of the IRRA board members have actually control tested a lower clearance to see what happens,a nd how low you can actually run without any trouble on the fast tracks. I am sure you all run undersize tires in practice (I know I do not put on new ones for practice, that's for sure!), and even run them out ending up much lower than .055. So if the track owners are so paranoid about clearance then maybe they should be enforcing clearance during practice. I know from my own running I have been well below 20 thou clearance in practice and not been hitting the track.

Yes those three classes were all run on the flat track at Brostolville, but it is hardly a slow flat track, and also has a banana straight and a couple of pretty big constant radius corners which increases tire wear significantly, plus I was running gumballs.

The other point is on most of the banked tracks like at HVR, Speedzone, Buena Park, The Track and other places I have raced, you tend to be at least on treated tires, and harder treated tires at that, so again tire wear is never an issue. Starting at .790 with a hard treated you will barely be at .780 at the end of the race, and even less wear if using wonder rubber.

Even if the races are not on the same track, it sure is nice to be able to extend the life of your used tires beyond practice use.

Not saying double tech would work in Retro East, I agree, no need for it. I was just pointing out how they handle allowing people to run the same set of tires when you car is already in tech for the next race. The Retro East system, works just fine as it is, and I think if we cut out the practice in between races there would be a lot of unhappy people!

[Larry Mattingly]

I don't want to really open-up this can of worms again, but... LOL

Chris R,: Thanks for pointing out all the positives of the Penn-Ohio rules. Our guys are VERY happy, and we have found recycling tires DOES save money, and has helped to increase the numer of entries at our races. At the Bristolville race you attended there were 33 racers in the house. And, the race was on a very technical flat track.

Dan Myers does an amazing job teching the cars. With the number of entries we have, plus the fact that we race four classes per day; we have found that we need to have an 'on-going' tech system in place. It works for us...

As for the F1 rear clearance issue... Penn-Ohio races on six tracks. Two are flat tracks, while the other four are banked tracks. Of the four banked tracks, two are Kings, one of which is an 'original' King identical to the one at Tom Thumb. To my knowledge, in two years of the .790/.040 rule being in place for F1, we have had NO issues, and complaints of damage from the track owners.

Mike McMasters is certainly permitted to have his opinion. It is his track. But, I also know that Ron Hershman has tested the Penn-Ohio F1 rule at Tom Thumb, and has reported that the lower clearance causes no damage to the surface.

The rule has not been a problem for Retro racers in Ohio, as ithe same F1 chassis is used in both Penn-Ohio and ORS. We just change tires. The rule works for Penn-Ohio, and in two years we have found that no one had to build special chassis' to accomodate the rule.

No problems, and no longer a big deal here...

LM

[Ron Hershman]

1. The key problem with clearance on banked tracks is the gear. if the gear is not hanging down below the chassis no damage is done to the track, and with Retro nothing is allowed to hang down below the chassis so there is no problem.

2. I would be interested to know how many of the IRRA board members have actually control tested a lower clearance to see what happens,a nd how low you can actually run without any trouble on the fast tracks. I am sure you all run undersize tires in practice (I know I do not put on new ones for practice, that's for sure!), and even run them out ending up much lower than .055. So if the track owners are so paranoid about clearance then maybe they should be enforcing clearance during practice. I know from my own running I have been well below 20 thou clearance in practice and not been hitting the track.

3. Even if the races are not on the same track, it sure is nice to be able to extend the life of your used tires beyond practice use.

1. I don't think the rule says the gear cannot hang below the chassis... I think the rule says the chassis and gear must clear by .050". A gear could clear by .050" and the chassis could be higher.

2. I have tested this. Most of the times we are racing like in heats 3 through 8 we are running close and lower than .040" as the race wears on.

3. Just think how many used Retro tires you can use on your ISRA and USRA cars. LOL.

[Chris Radisich]

1. I don't think the rule says the gear cannot hang below the chassis... I think the rule says the chassis and gear must clear by .050" A gear could clear by .050" and the chassis could be higher.

Yes, you're right, but how many actually run with a gear below the chassis. Most are teching right at .812" otherwise on such big tires you are giving up too much.

2. I have tested this. Most of the times we are racing like in heats 3 through 8 we are running close and lower than .040" as the race wears on.

Thanks, Ron, I knew you would have tested it. When using a softer treated tire on a fast banked track I am seeing usually about .040" at the end of the race. Never seeing anything down to .030" after a race, and with the harder treated/Wonder it's usually .040" and above, especially on F1 cars.

3. Just think how many used retro tires you can use on your ISRA and USRA cars lol

Been a while since you've raced faster cars?
With the small 72P gears and NO CLEARANCE RULES these days in many classes you cannot run the big hubs we generally run in Retro, they are too big. If you're running stockcars or something like hat then yes you have plenty of tires, but not for the other faster classes.

Hey, Noose, Happy New Year to you, too.

Larry, it makes perfect sense for Penn-Ohio with the way the series is run, but it's a little different in other series as the same classes are not run at each event, but there should never be any sense for a possible rule that would save people some money not being considered, by a sanctioning body, or by track owners. That saved cost on a pair of tires might make all the difference to someone being able to buy another hand-out motor to get competitive, or to even make the race when the crappy one they were forced to buy dies during practice!

[W. J. Dougherty]

Hey Guys,

In the Rules thread this morning I saw the following change to the IRRA™ rules:

"The IRRA™ Board of Directors has voted in the following restriction on crown gears used in IRRA™ inline classes:

"Crown gears used in the inline classes must be commercially available and the only modifications allowed (other than making your own sleeve) will be sanding of the diameter of the gear and heating/burning it in for a smoother gear mesh.

Disallowed modifications would include, but are not limited to, lightening, drilling, reversing the gear on the hub, repositioning the set screw hole, changing or reconfiguring the hub, and/or any other changes to the gear's size or appearance as compared to the stock production gear."

These gear regulations will take effect on 3/1/12 for the IRRA™ Premier races and on 5/1/12 for racing in IRRA™ regions, and will be added to the IRRA™ rule set at the next published revision."

I need a point of clarification. In para 2 of your statement above, it mentions that you can sand the diameter of crown gears. However, in the "disallowed modifications" para it states that changes can not be made to the gear's size...

Can someone please clarify this for me...

Thanks,

[MSwiss]

No change to the size refers to the overall width of the gear, the diameter of the hub, etc.

The rule states you can change the diameter, obviously to allow guys who want to use 29t and 30t gears.

You can reduce the diameter only so much, as you of course are limited by the thickness of the teeth.

[JHMerriman]

Does the new rule apply to GT Coupe?

[slotcarone]

It says inline classes - so the answer is yes!!!

[John Streisguth]

Which means that reducing the diameter will now be allowed, whereas before it was not in this class (as well as Stock Car).

[The Groove]

OK,

When they changed the rule on the bearing in the can we had to wait months before we could use them and it is still OK to use a bushing motor if you want. And the rules stated you could not modify the gears on the Stock Cars and and the Coupes? but it was OK on F1 and Can-Am.

Now I got less than a month to use up all my modified gears? Maybe the IRRA™ would like to buy all my modified gears? Or give us a reasonable amount of time to use up the gears before you change the rules.

[Mark Wampler]

... amonth to use up all my modified gears? Maybe the IRRA™ would like to buy all my modified gears? Or give us a reasonable amount of time to use up the gears before you change the rules.

No, Oscar will snap them all up.

[Noose]

No, Rich. Regionally you can use your modified gears until 5/1/12. You can use them too until 3/1/12 at any event. After 3/1/12 you can't use them at Premier events which means the R4 and the Southern Shootout.

[Ron Hershman]

... or give us a reasonable amount of time to use up the gears before you change the rules.

You have until 5/1/12 to use them up in regional races.

You have until 3/1/12 to use them up in Premier events.

[Larry Mattingly]

A regional series could always choose to ignore the gear rule (or any other IRRA™ rule for that matter).

It is MRRA's choice, Rich... If you aren't happy... establish your own cut-off date.

No choice at the IRRA 'Premier' races...

LM

[DGRacer]

Thanks to the BoD for getting this right.

[JerseyJohn]

Larry, that sounds like anarchy, dude. Why all the IRRA™ hating going on, brother? We have a VERY successful race program using IRRA™ rules.

Just my observation, buddy, but I don't recall ever hearing the podium winners and A-B class drivers complaining about the rules being unfair. It's usually the ones that never win looking for an edge. If you can't win with the rules, taping underneath, grinding gears, and putting holes in spoilers won't help....

Just My opinion, nothing personal.

Jersey "C Main" John.

[Noose]

Thanks, Dale.

Folks, please note the announcement has been updated. There is a date change for regional implementation and allowance of sanding as of now.

Click HERE.

[Larry Mattingly]

John

Tape, gears, and holes in my spoiler aren't going to help me a bit, and truthfully that stuff doesn't matter to me. My days of making an A Main ended about fifteen years ago... LOL.

'Anarchy'... strong term, dude.

Any discontent I have with Retro racing centers around cost issues, and cost containment. I NEVER said anything was 'unfair'. Perhaps anal and stupid, but certainly not 'unfair'... LOL. A rule set is the same for all racers.

I simply pointed out to Rich that if he wasn't happy with the new gear rule, the series he races with could extend the cut-off date, or simply ignore it altogether...

In my experience regional series' need to do what is best for its racers, and what will generate the most racers to participate.

BTW... we also have a VERY successful race program using IRRA™ rules, with a few modifications. Don't know why anyone would be upset about that fact?

Nothing personal on my end...

LM

[JerseyJohn]

Larry, you need to do what works for you're group. It's healthy to have a difference of opinion when done in an adult way.

It just bothers me when folks post indignantly about people that volunteer their time and effort. I have respect for men like our IRRA™ BoD and you who have taken the lead in establishing organized slot car racing. Because of you volunteers, the hobby is still growing and grown men are once again having fun
It's gets tiring to hear grown men crying like little girls all the time about silly things, my friend. Having been ill, you know what's truly important.

To quote my friend sweet Lou, "Nobody likes the Boss." It's a good thing I'm not an organization leader. I would be living in ***** land, LOL.

I think everyone needs to do what works for me...

Take a few swigs of vodka, kick the dog, tell the wife to f*** off then go race slot cars...

[Larry Mattingly]

John,

I learned a long time ago that when you 'volunteer' to do anything, you also need to be prepared to accept the criticism and grief that goes with it...

Comes with the turf...

I have also never felt threatened when someone challenges a decision I have made, or doesn't agree with my personal opiniion regarding an issue. Sometimes discourse brings about positive changes.

Trust me, there are times when I don't feel 'the love' either...

My attitude in life is to do what I feel is 'right', and let the chips fall where they fall.

True enough, they are toy cars, and the ultimate goal is having fun.

I think we are all doing that in our own way.

LM

[JerseyJohn]

Love you, my brother. Peace to you always, Bambino...

[Matt Bruce]

I agree with the rule change for gears by the board. I'm actually surprised it took so long to change it. I've gotten a lot of flack over the years about modifying the gears for Retro racing, but in my defense the original purpose of doing so was just to improve on such a outdated and inferior product. I gave out a lot of gears to racers to use and helped many to win. Kisling, Radisch, Ursaner, Warmack, Tony P, Cicconi, to just name a few.

Maybe someday a manufacturer will provide a gear with better quality control for today's Retro cars.

[Rick]

Something to possibly consider for the future. New bodies submission to be given a much longer time frame before the R4. Something like 90 days instead of 30 days or by Sept. 1st so the season is set for that year?

[Ron Hershman]

Maybe they should also consider doing the same for manufactured chassis kits and other parts???