1441 replies to this topic

[Bryan Warmack]

On the Tokyo Retro thread I asked whether the little milled slots in question were legal as I have been told recently by the IRRA™ that many of my chassis are now illegal because of similar metal removal. I have been slightly grinding the very TOPS of the .078" main rails on my chassis to remove about .010" to .015" or about 20%. The IRRA™ rule says you can only remove 20% and ONLY on the bottom so my cars are illegal as the metal removal is on the top.

As a participant who must now build new cars I am a bit confused as to why one would be allowed and not the other. The IRRA™ recently informed me that the reason the ground piano wire was not allowed was that they wanted to insure that racers "wouldn't need access to a machine shop" and that the IRRA™ "wanted the K&S material to be the way it came from the factory". All perfectly understood by me... but NOW the IRRA™ says that if the parts have the POTENTIAL to be modified with a Dremel and an attachment, material removal is OK??? Excuse me if I am confused here as it just seems so inconsistent?... Why is it legal to remove a lot of brass on a mill but it is illegal to remove a little steel with a Dremel? What is the difference? What is the reasoning now?

Is the piano wire considered different from the brass in the rules?
Are the little pans considered different from the main rails?
If the main rails were brass would it be OK?
If the little pans were steel would it be OK?
If the little pans were made from piano wire would removing metal be OK?
???

If the IRRA™ would have said today the the removal of metal on the brass pans was illegal as per their recent contacts with me for the reasons given I would have totally understood and agreed 100%. The ruling now seems so contradictory that as a participant I would like a clarification before I build anything else.

[Mark Wampler]

Wow, is this for real? Let's just race Flexis if rules are going to remove the creativity aspect of scratchbuilding. If a scratchbuilder does not have a Dremel with a cut-off wheel, then he isn't suited to build, IMO. It doesn't take a machine shop to use a Dremel to shave of sections of piano wire

Tuning is very important to the builder. (DUH) Adjusting side flex motion by shaving here and there amounts to tuning. Once again, no machine shop needed.

[Noose]

Bryan, you have been told by me privately and this was done publicly as was everyone when the rule went into effect on the main rails in January 2010. As far as gouging, opening up, carving out of brass it can all be done with a Dremel. It is already done anytime a motor bracket is modified to the builder's desire.

The top of main rails cannot be ground down flat. They might be notched to say accommodate soldering of a bite bar and where the rails go into a nosepiece they are often ground or filed after soldering to get them flush with the brass.

The rail rule is what it is. Over 300 other participants have built cars that comply.

[Ron Hershman]

Why is it legal to remove a lot of brass on a mill but it is illegal to remove a little steel with a Dremel? What is the difference? What is the reasoning now?

Is the piano wire considered different from the brass in the rules?
Are the little pans considered different from the main rails?
If the main rails were brass would it be OK?
If the little pans were steel would it be OK?
If the little pans were made from piano wire would removing metal be OK?
???

What's the difference? Da rules clearly state the difference between the two.

What's the reasoning? See the rules. They are "very" specific to what can be done to the main rails.

Is the piano wire considered different from the brass in the rules? If the "main rails" are made from brass or piano wire... neither can be "ground" on the top of the main rails?
Are the little pans considered different from the main rails? They are "pans" not "main rails"... no limits on machining or removing material from the pans.
If the main rails were brass would it be OK? Main rails are main rails no matter the material used.
If the little pans were steel would it be OK? Again... pans are not main rails.
If the little pans were made from piano wire would removing metal be OK? Yep.

[Bryan Warmack]

Bryan, you have been told by me privately and this was done publicly as was everyone when the rule went into effect on the main rails in January 2010. As far as gouging, opening up, carving out of brass it can all be done with a Dremel. It is already done anytime a motor bracket is modified to the builder's desire.

The top of main rails cannot be ground down flat. They might be notched to say accommodate soldering of a bite bar and where the rails go into a nosepiece they are often ground or filed after soldering to get them flush with the brass.

The rail rule is what it is. Over 300 other participants have built cars that comply.

Joe,

Completely understood!! Some of my confusion stems from the fact that many of my cars for some time now actually had slightly ground main rails on top but since no one was doing it I'm sure it was just overlooked in tech. I thought it was something new. NO grinding of the tops of the main rails. Thanks for the clarification!

[tonyp]

I have at least three out there that are built wrong side up, and Joe says I wrote the rule. LOL...

[Matt Bruce]

It was my understanding that the rule was written on the main rails to avoid builders from taking 1/4 in rod or whatever dia. rod, surface grinding flat @ 180 degrees to create flat steel to mimic spring steel plate. I know this because I asked Tony when the idea zinged across my mind while on the toilet. Funny thing was Tony said he wrote the rule on the toilet. Lol. My other question was, can you turn the diameter of the wire down, and the answer was yes. Is that still a true statement?

[Ron Hershman]

My other question was, can you turn the diameter of the wire down, and the answer was yes. Is that still a true statement?

Sure...round is round

[Noose]

Round is round nd if anyone really wants to take the time to do that well what can I say.

[Terry]

Could you use solder as a way to add material back to the areas of the main rails that have been ground to make the chassis legal? This way Bryan wouldn't have to spend a bunch of time rebuilding unless he really wants too.

[Noose]

Nope, as this has been the rule for almost three years now. His cars are perfect for SCRRA though and can be run there.

[Duffy]

I know this [1/4" wire ground flat and blah blah blah] because I asked Tony when the idea zinged across my mind while on the toilet. Funny thing was Tony said he wrote the rule on the toilet.

Machinametallurgicalogistacally speaking, Matt, the various alloys and temperings that get lumped into the generic "Music Wire" today isn't near what spring steel could be; and besides, you're inducing such tremendous stresses into the remaining stock by grinding that mucking great amount off that you may as well put a Puppy Dog into a paperclip and drop it on the track. It won't be flat, it won't stay flat.

But - all this toilet humor tempts me to recall, Martin Luther also had his great epiphany while on his chamberpot. So, I'd pay attention to youse guys if I were me.

Duffy

[tonyp]

Ok here is where flat wire came from, on one of Tore trips back east I drove him to and from the race as his sisters house was just a few minutes from mine. It was something I wanted to try and I asked him if Bryan could do it in his shop. A few weeks later I got some in the mail and tried them. No big deal. Originally I wanted to cut down 1/8 th or 1/4 rod to .047 to get as close to a steel center section as possible. I did cut some .078 down with a dremel but they came out like crap and were all bowed. Not easy to do correctly. But then I am not as good as some people I guess. No one ever cut them by hand in the old days. How Bryan does it so well amazes me. The commercial stuff everyone used was done on a surface grinder. Rehco sold some square wire and I believe Parma did also but it was completely twisted and bent.

[MSwiss]

How Bryan does it so well amazes me.

I'm guessing he goes extremely slow.

At Koford I occasionally cut the outside perimeter rails on my handcut .042 centers down to .035.
I probably took a minimum 50-100 passes on the surface grinder, just lightly tapping the handwheel each time.

[Noose]

And here I thought even a caveman do it with a Dremel.

[Duffy]

I haven't done wire per se; but metal takes a "stress" when you cut it with anything. As a gross example, just saw a cut down the middle of a strip of brass and look what the two resultant strips do as they get long...that's what happens when you mill, or grind, or anything. When grinding down thin, what you end up doing is flipflopping repeatedly to try to equalize the stresses & end up flat--but even that is folly, it'll only last until you do something else like solder something to the piece...then, there's stress-relief, or there's peening (I won't even start to describe, just forget it),or, or, or--look, just build a Retro frame and have fun. It's more fun and a lot less heartbreak.

Duffy

[Ron Hershman]

I'm guessing he goes extremely slow.

At Koford I occasionally cut the outside perimeter rails on my handcut .042 centers down to .035.
I probably took a minimum 50-100 passes on the surface grinder, just lightly tapping the handwheel each time.

Yep did that to a few spring chassis back in my time too. But blue spring steel is a tad different than piano wire

Piano wire can be ground flat on a surface grinder at slow speeds and lots of coolant. Been there done that

[Rick]

Damn, I'm looking for the freaking lock! LOL Put it to rest and move on, nothing to see here...................

[MSwiss]

Yep did that to a few spring chassis back in my time too. But blue spring steel is a tad different than piano wire

Piano wire can be ground flat on a surface grinder at slow speeds and lots of coolant. Been there done that

But I think you can agree going slow with miniscule plunges is a good idea with either.

I also did piano wire.
Because water made a big mess I would take a slow, tiny pass and then go do something else and come back and take another.
Trying to rush PW, at all, just makes it into a banana.

[Ron Hershman]

But I think you can agree going slow with miniscule plunges is a good idea with either.

I also did piano wire.
Because water made a big mess I would take a slow, tiny pass and then go do something else and come back and take another.
Trying to rush PW, at all, just makes it into a banana.

Agreed

[Duffy]

Trying to rush PW, at all, just makes it into a banana.

...blue spring steel is a tad different than piano wire
Piano wire can be ground flat on a surface grinder at slow speeds and lots of coolant. Been there done that

Ron, per my post #812 (do I sound a tad defensive?), it's a very different stuff, and the best wire isn't the alloy that spring plate is. I don't have access to my desk at work & the numbers &c. don't matter to us anyway, but the bottom line is, you won't get spring steel characteristics out of ground wire anyway.

Furthermore, I'll claim my 44 years in this business as justification for being a big blowhard and just say that grinding wire on the level we--any of us, you, me, Ron--want, is pretty much in "Magic Feather" class.
The mfgr's of thin parallel bars start with rolled stock, then grind rough, stress-relieve & re-temper, roll, stress-relieve again, grind finish, roll again & relieve & draw a third time, then match grind heights and pack 'em up.
Piano wire's a different animal--ohh, we've already agreed on that. & like Mike & I have said...
With the exception of three or four of us, we won't do all that stuff anyway. Why are we talking about the possibilities?

I think it's kind of ironic that we're discussing a process that's written out of the IRRA rules, like it's something we should have in there; when, maybe, we could be focusing on some of the viable alternatives we're already researching, & with pretty positive outcomes.
With the abundance of threads around here that deal with our desire for juuust that little edge that this body or that chassis tweak will appear to offer...can anybody come out and honestly declare he's begging for a Magic Feather as an alternative to testing, tuning, analysis and practice?
--Okay, I'll start: I AM, and I'm stupid for doing it. There, I've broke the ice. Who's next?

Damn, I'm looking for the freaking lock! LOL Put it to rest and move on, nothing to see here...............[obnoxious animaSmiley removed, because I can't stand looking at 'em].

I disagree. While you or I or Fergus may not like it, the thread may actually have some worth. I don't think any individual should have power of pass/not pass over a discussion, especially if it hasn't turned violent: this is just technical, which don't meet the criteria.

Duffy

[MSwiss]

OK, flat wire talk is over.

Next question.

[Ron Hershman]

Is taking 4 inch lengths of "Drill Blank" say in 1/8" or 3/32" diameter and having it centerless ground to say .055 or .063 or .078 legal to use as main rails???

[MSwiss]

My personal, non-official IRRA take on it.

I'm not sure how the tech inspector could easily identify it as being anything different than regular chassis wire,
especially if you tinned it.

Unless you kept the unsoldered length real short, I'm pretty sure it would snap it a reasonably bad wreck.

[Ron Hershman]

My personal, non-official IRRA take on it.

I'm not sure how the tech inspector could easily identify it as being anything different than regular chassis wire,
especially if you tinned it.

Unless you kept the unsoldered length real short, I'm pretty sure it would snap it a reasonably bad wreck.

Well there are "materials" out there harder/stiffer than piano wire and not as hard as "drill blank"

Piano wire out of the same batch has a Rockwell of C 41-60 is a "big" window from the "soft" side to the "hard" side.

I feel this is the reason most times, that two chassis built to identical specs in regards to diameter of wire, length, WB, guide length, etc can work TOTALLY different between the two identical chassis.

It's not the build.... it's the wire hardness not being consistent in the same dimensions and from the same maker of music wire.

And being Music wire is "drawn" when manufactured.... one has to wonder if a 6 inch length is the same hardness throughout the length.

Just food for thought.