1441 replies to this topic

[Ron Hershman]

The other reason for NOT allowing "flat rails" is that anyone could take a Spring Steel box stock or Scale Euro type chassis and cut off the outside rails and solder them to a brass nose piece and motor bracket using them as main rails and no one would be able to tell if they were ground music wire or Spring steel once they were "tinned" as Mike has already pointed out in the above discussion.

They could just as easy take Blue Spring Steel Flat Sheet and lazer or EDM cut straight flat rails in a variety of lengths and thicknesses to be used for main rails and no one would be the wiser if flat main rails were allowed.

No flat rails being allowed is a "good" rule for many reasons.

[Bryan Warmack]

Can't anyone here imagine taking a "U" shaped piece of .078 piano wire with about 5" legs made for a 1" motor bracket. It is "U" shaped and therefore won't roll when placed on a wooden block. Simply grind away on top with a Dremel and a 1 1/2" diameter or so sanding pad with a 40 grit sure stick disc. All Ace hardware stuff. Takes about 3 minutes to remove about 20% from the top. No real heat and you just have to bend it flat as removing a little on one side does warp it somewhat. Nothing needs to be perfect. I don't know if it does anything but it stands to reason that it must make the frame dynamics a bit more flexi. This is just an idea a racer might have and might want to have fun trying. No different than Z rails, Twistamon, etc., etc., etc. Just a lot simpler.
I am not advocating anything and I certainly understand and respect the thinking behind wanting to prevent stuff that is too complicated for the average scratchbuilder but I am just saying the removal of a small amount of material from one side of piano wire IS DEAD EASY.

[MSwiss]

Bryan,
Is the above process how you made the flat wire that John Gorski has used on some of his beautiful chassis?

[Mark Wampler]

Curious about rules that relate to torsion/stabilizer bars? Any chance of a little shave on them ?

[Gator Bob]

. I don't know if it does anything but it stands to reason that it must make the frame dynamics a bit more flexi.

Flat down = lower CoG.
Yes?

Thanks for the simple method Bryan.

[Ron Hershman]

Can't anyone here imagine taking a "U" shaped piece of .078 piano wire with about 5" legs made for a 1" motor bracket. It is "U" shaped and therefore won't roll when placed on a wooden block. Simply grind away on top with a Dremel and a 1 1/2" diameter or so sanding pad with a 40 grit sure stick disc. All Ace hardware stuff. Takes about 3 minutes to remove about 20% from the top. No real heat and you just have to bend it flat as removing a little on one side does warp it somewhat. Nothing needs to be perfect. I don't know if it does anything but it stands to reason that it must make the frame dynamics a bit more flexi. This is just an idea a racer might have and might want to have fun trying. No different than Z rails, Twistamon, etc., etc., etc. Just a lot simpler.
I am not advocating anything and I certainly understand and respect the thinking behind wanting to prevent stuff that is too complicated for the average scratchbuilder but I am just saying the removal of a small amount of material from one side of piano wire IS DEAD EASY.

Yes one could do this and then "flip" the "U" shaped "hoop" over and place the ground side on the bottom as the rules require.

This could give one the "dynamics" one is looking for and still be legal.

I don't think the "flat" being on the top of the rails is any advantage over the "flat" being on the bottom.

It's just in the way it's assembled and soldered according to the rules

And this is still "Dead easy" to do

[MSwiss]

Allowing flattening of the rails at all was mostly not to penalize guys who wanted to clean their whole chassis by rubbing
it over sandpaper.

In the process of the brass getting cleaned up the rails inevitably get a bit of a flat spot.

[Rick]

Maybe to calm the flames and since the suspected chassis have gone thru tech several times, Would it not be in the best interest of peace and harmony to allow the questionable chassis to continue to be raced and anything from this day forward to be corrected? Mistakes are made and now that it's brought to light, can be changed without a lot of bloodshed? Next time Howie crashes it and it has to be repaired or replaced it would all go away.

I think everyone knows why the rule is in place, now, and it probably has the merit to keep it in place for reasons stated.

[Duffy]

Allowing flattening of the rails at all was mostly not to penalize guys who wanted to clean their whole chassis by rubbing it over sandpaper.
In the process of the brass getting cleaned up the rails inevitably get a bit of a flat spot.

Good point; but it's been shown over and over, racers will never let "intent" get in the way of pressing a perceived advantage. It's the biggest problem with rules sets written by enthusiasts rather than bloodyminded lawyers: "WE all understand" what's intended, and then the sharks start circling.

And, yah, every time we tweak a rule even with good intentions, we move the line a little further. We've managed to play Monopoly for generations without needing $220 when we pass Go.

Duffy

[Noose]

The frames weren't raced, Rick, unless something got by me and yes that is possible. Howie's cars at the Sano were Richie Austin frames. At the Fall Brawl and at the R4 he had some Warmacks. Early on it was the hanging below the main rail thing and that is now all resolved.

The rules are what they are, Rick. If one person is let go then it sets a precedent for others to follow. This has happened in other areas and it did no good because it adds confusion to those that then see the results and photos. They then show up at a race thinking well it ran before and find out they can't.

[Rick]

I understand your stance. NP.

Howie, NO TECH FOR YOU!

[Phil Irvin]

Allowing flattening of the rails at all was mostly not to penalize guys who wanted to clean their whole chassis by rubbing
it over sandpaper.

I usta do it to make the chassis flat as I could get them. It also got a little more up and down flex and twist with no more side to side... Circa '68 stuff... People didn't complain then... I guess 'whats old is new'...

OLPHRT
PHIL I.

[Gator Bob]

Can... production produced, commercially available steel pillow blocks be used legally for front axle uprights?

[MSwiss]

No.

Sheet steel is only allowed on the guide tongue.

[Mark Wampler]

Ah what does it matter. Its an IRRA thing. I'll shave my stabilizer bars, since there isn't a rule - if I ever run on that side of the coast.

[MSwiss]

Mark,
Sorry we didn't respond to your original post but you seem to have your own jargon when it comes
to slot cars.

Assuming "stabilizer bars" are not main rails, you may shave them.

[S.O. Watt]

(In the voice of Tony Montana)

Meet my little frend.

This is my Mill, I call him Hon-doo as he's from Honduras.

He's a bastard on the flip side.

25 minutes and I have 2 pair of perfectly shaved main rails, ready to be installed either way up (or down).

As you can see, the only hard to get tool is the 42 + year old Champion block.

Hardly hi tech.

Your results may vary. No Animals hurt in the making of these rails. Some assembly required. Wear your safety equipment. Do not cross on the yellow.

Attached Images

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[Mopar Rob]

I did cut some .078 down with a dremel but they came out like crap and were all bowed. Not easy to do correctly. But then I am not as good as some people I guess. No one ever cut them by hand in the old days. How Bryan does it so well amazes me.

It's really not that hard to do with a angle grinder. That's how I did some, and I would bet $5 that's how Bryan does it. Takes maybe 5 minutes. Maybe a $20 harbor freight tool?




Personally, I don't see what the big deal is, it's a cheap tool and an easy process that anyone can do?

[Duffy]

<sigh> ...I'm just out here in Right Coast Retro Country, presently munching an ultra-rare lemon&ginger-marinated flank steak and endive spears sauteed in garlic, and that's damn good, but--so's this--

--& ya know--I'm looking at it this way:

Heat distortion's just part of what happens when you machine (including, grind) material: there's also crowding on a molecular level that tends to warp the stock away from the cut, & otherwise imparts stresses you won't like. You can bend back to flat, sure, but hit that piece with heat and it's back to strange & you gotta deal with it again. And again as it flexes with use, and and and. The stresses don't just go away, not easily: better to not put 'em in to begin with.
Which really applies to everything we do in a tray, start to post-race. It's really inescapable, sooo--we're back down to "Informed Choice."
So, sure, flattening rails is one way to go, if you're aware of all the bumps in that; multi rails is one compromise, and so on.
Just be sure you're following ALL the conversation, to your own satisfaction.

Reading back over this. I'm reminded of Cameron Crowe's re-telling (as "William Miller") of a conversation with Lester Bangs, per his Almost Famous scene:
Lester: Y' like Lou Reed?
William His earlier stuff; now, he's just doing Bowie.
L: Yuh, but--Bowie's doing Lou, sooo...Lou's still doing Lou.
W: --If you like Lou.

Duf

[Mark Wampler]

Assuming "stabilizer bars" are not main rails, you may shave them.

Main rails to remain untouched

Then secondary, not main rails will be ok to shave.
Secondary rails connecting the motor bracket to the front axle assembly are considered stabilizer bars.

[Duffy]

Main rails to remain untouched
Then secondary, not main rails will be ok to shave.
Secondary rails connecting the motor bracket to the front axle assembly are considered stabilizer bars.

Wait, we're still talking at cross-purposes in our vocabulary!
Mark utters "stabilizer bars," Mike S. addresses his logical assumption as to what they mean and responds, and--suddenly, everything NOT a given pair of "main rails" becomes "stabilizer bars?"
How 'bout axles? No hollow stabilizer bars there, but flat-ground--heck, they've already got flats on 'em, why not just go the full span? Works fine for me. You know--Semantics.

At risk of dumping the four-five dozen guys with a stake in SCRRA racing into the same basket, I'm jus' shakin' my head right now: Several non-IRRA -affiliated posters have waxed eloquent about the sheer volume of the IRRA rulebook, and now--here, we seem to have come to the long, long end of a series of posts setting up the "ah-HAH!!" moment.
That's how it looks, anyhow.
--Done by a non-IRRA-affiliate, or so I presume.

Or, I could be wrong.

Mark, please enlighten or correct me as needed: having chiseled out this little semantic niche, can you describe, sketch out, or photograph an application for what you're concluding this rule to mean in your specific interpretation here, and show how it might work to the advantage of the builder?
Aspiring minds want to know.

duf

[Phil Smith]

You can bend back to flat, sure, but hit that piece with heat and it's back to strange & you gotta deal with it again. And again as it flexes with use, and and and. The stresses don't just go away, not easily: better to not put 'em in to begin with.

You can over bend it past flat, then bend it back flat. That relieves the stress and makes it stay straight.

Did you notice the efficiency and economy of my post, Duff? I managed to make make my point in two sentences!

[Duffy]

You can over bend it past flat, then bend it back flat. That relieves the stress and makes it stay straight.
Did you notice the efficiency and economy of my post, Duff? I managed to make make my point in two sentences!

--Humbled.

But--sorry--your point's wrong: that's not stress relieving, not by a long shot, and it won't stay stress-relieved.
Truth.
Okay, I needed three sentences and a fragment (and some fancy punctuation), but it's still the facts.

[Duffy]

--But maybe it doesn't matter!

If five of us here actually know and practice the kind of stuff we're arguing, that's a minority anyway. Most of us aren't gonna grind a rail, and even more than most aren't reading the thread.

It's about informed choice, and past that, information matters - or it don't.

Four sentences & a capper; I'm trying, I really am.

[Duffy]

Thank God for semicolons. - Apropos of nothing at all.