537 replies to this topic

[Vay Jonynas]

When I have caught up with the things I've neglected during the hours it took to read all this, perhaps I'll expound on some of my expereinces and observations....

OK, Jim. Six months is time enough to catch up. What is it that you were going to say?

[MrWeiler]

{QUOTE] I'll throw out two more possibilities to add to the mix: Cars stopped looking like cars, and "rules".[/quote]
JMHO I think that was the least of it... there were still plenty of scale cars available (my preference) but most of the kids and most of the people in the raceways at the time were buying thingies. Best selling car? Manta Ray.

[MantaRay]

Best selling car? Manta Ray.

They rock... Was my last slot car untll I got a '63 Chevy SS 409 as a junior in HS in 1966. Blew that sucker up in two weeks. Put a 327 350 HP Corvette motor in it... Sure wish I still had it.

[MrWeiler]

Slot cars are nearly dead as well,-- because it's too expensive-- and we can't get new people to stay in it--
STOP changing the rules-- changing the motors-- to go faster-- and create more D3 style class's-- and RACE with cheap motors. When the investment is small relative to the entertainment value-- we'll bring more people back to racing and new people into racing.
IMHO

Tim: While the costs and the rules changes might be driving existing racers out, the main problem with keeping existing commercial tracks open is getting new people in the door and serving their needs when they arrive. Raceways ALWAYS bleed existing customers - teenagers discovering girls, customers dying, getting a divorce, losing a job, moving, or just losing interest... a raceway MUST always bring in new customers to replace the lost customers to remain open. Rules changes and costs only affect the customers that the raceway already has...

Remember that, unlike the '60s, there is competition from the internet, computer and video games, more things for kids to do, and there are no widely distributed magazines with articles about slots, no TV or radio or internet buzz and very little word of mouth driving potential customers into existing tracks.

Many if not most all of the existing raceways have poor or non-existent signage to attract any customers who already might be looking for the track or interested if they saw a sign - some also have poor locations (due most likely to low rental costs).

In the past two decades raceways with a hot location or good signage or TV advertising have had a huge surge in initial business but have been unable to sustain because of financial or other business reasons...

During the '60s raceways were in large malls with walk-in traffic and street visability. With the low profit margins in any hobby busness today and the reduced popularity and increased costs and location like that would be financially difficult if not impossible.

With an existing track, when a new potential customer does manage to find their way to a raceway, most of the time they are exicited and can't wait to throw money at the register, However, in addition to the other problems I listed many raceways fail to provide even the most basic customer service. Ignoring potential customers at the counter or not greeting newbies who are looking around the track or even treating potential customers gruffly or in a rude way, tracks ignore or drive off potential income. Raceways also fall into a rut and only offer service to existing racers and have no entry-level RTRs and basic controllers in the counter ready to sell when a potential new customer arrives and wants to buy something to run.

[redbackspyder]

I agree with Mike, and the reason many come to Nomad in San Diego is because of Mike's great customer service coupled with his awareness that getting newbies started right is the watering of the planted seed. More people that I know come to Nomad just for Mike's advice, he being a prominent racer in the' 60s and has continued to stay up on what is the latest in the hobby. His cheerful demeanor also makes the difference in holding onto customers, which most raceways drive away with unknowledgeable people working there and with the attitude that the customer is an inconvenience. Look at successful raceways, Roger S and Mike S, they both offer great help in their own ways and have good, viable products on hand to sell.

[MrWeiler]

... he being a prominent racer in the '60s

Thanks for the nice words, Mill, but I was NOT a prominent racer in the '60s, I was a junior high kid racer running mostly on my lunch money. LOL. The sponsorships that I had back then were from tracks in the valley... I got some discounts on the out-of-the-counter motors and tires and sometimes a ride to the big races where I got to donate my entry fee to the Steubes, Cucrases, and their ilk...

Oh yeah, I really appreciate the chance whenever I can drive up, to race with you guys again in D3. LOTS of fun in retro and Jail Door and I just want to see it grow bigger...

Anyway, I did get help from PvA when I moved to Westfield, NJ, in '68-69 and met him at Cranford Raceway. He taught me a lot about race tactics and car set-up and I did get the once-in-a-while hand me down chassis or motor from him that helped me at Nutley and other NJ/NYC area racing when I lived back there, but again I was just a high school kid racing on my lunch money...

I moved back to LA but stayed away from slots 'till about 1978 when got more prominent as a racer (at least in the LA area) in the late '70s and early '80s when I ran into Revtech owner Neal (an old friend) and he loaned me a modern car and I won the first race (where I made friends with Boemker). I entered and got hooked again. Revtech sponsored me and I won a bunch of G-27 and G-7 races and two championships. I quit racing USRA seriously again after two years because I got married for the first time and the time and money dissappared... By the time of the '80 worlds I was only racing once every three-four months... LOL! I shoulda kept racing.

[Tim Neja]

Oh yeah-- economics have NOTHING to do with hobby participation! That thinking is what buried slot racing in the first place. As well as On Road RC Racing--then off -road RC racing-- etc.etc. What any hobby survives on is the money that people have that is secondary to what is necessary to run their lives. And if Momma can't afford to take the family on vacation, guess which "hobby" daddy has to drop???

I'm just enjoying slot racing's survival and revival through D3 racing. I'll ride the train as long as I can!! Let's Race!!!
T

[MrWeiler]

Oh yeah-- economics have NOTHING to do with hobby participation!

Didn't say that...in fact other hobbies have seen an increase. INCREASE? Yep. Most hobbies are like comfort food, can't afford the new car, ski boat, jet ski, Tahiti vacation? huddle up at home and spend time with your hobby....Yeah lets race.

[DocSlotCar]

One reason Slot car racing died in the sixties was "traveling Pros" selling in the parking lot. Having done a fair amount of racing on a southwest based team that traveled from raceway to raceway I saw that up front. Pro teams would show up and clean house becasue of superior equipment. Then sell stuff to locals that the was not available. Keep that local on the "customer list". The local customer did not support his local track and the place closed. The area I was in had over 20 raceways in 1966-1968. By 1970 we had one.

Another reason was no product support by the "Cottage industry" slot car manufacturers. The small time manufacturer had no marketing plan to increase business. Most were afraid to promote their own business, contact raceways or advertise. As with today's manufacturers, same excuses and reasons and therefore stagnation. Lack of a standard set of rules also contributed as most raceways ran their own set of rules and cars. The rules created by AMF/American were mostly ignored even by their own raceways.

Recently (Last 15 years) Parma tried to a great extent with the Parma Cup Challenge but that lasted only a few years as most raceways did not support that concept. Parma also did not to a great extent make that series available outside their own area. Sure you could run a challenge cup series but without support from the manufacturer to get the word out, promotional items and personal reps that soon died. Unfortunately becausue the idea was sound and would have created new racers.

No marketing plan, no marketing, no one willing to spend money to make money. Business goes away. Simple economics. Think small, be small. Think big.....you may get to be big if you have something to sell that people want to buy.

Many will blame Wing type of cars. Not the only reason the public did not buy "slot cars". It was lack of exposure to the general public that killed it mostly. MY opinion and I was there at the beginning as a racer, shop person and manufacturer racer and rep.

Now it is rent, rent, rent and again no marketing by anyone. No new people coming in and this hobby goes away in 20 years...or less.......

We can prevent that. But is anyone willing to do it?

[Tim Neja]

Once again, I'll go back to the simple D3 concept. Create a form of racing that is inexpensive-- has RULES that don't allow constant change in the quest for "faster" and "quicker" all the time. Limit the kind of cars you can build and the motors you run. STOP CHANGING to try and go faster--then put a premium on building and driving! D3 works because the motors are very inexpensive--and CONSISTANT. As long as you don't try to race on a KING track all the time, and put driving at a premium--a LOT of racers have the same opportunity to win and compete.

This also ELIMINATES the possibility of the "PRO" coming in and helping the local out without benefit to the track. The track sells all the parts to the racers, the racers get to race and compete--and everyone can have fun without spending a large amount of money. It helps promote and grow the hobby. THen, if someone wants to move over into the faster class's- like wing cars or Euro's--they can with the experience they gained building and racing in D3.

T

[nomad2race]

There’s never enough time around here!

There have been many insights in this thread that I find interesting and I try to observe in my daily efforts to build a slot car business. To get a better understanding on this topic I’ve been reading Robert Putnam’s book, “Bowling Alone - The Collapse and Revival of American Community “ Here’s a description of it:

“Once we bowled in leagues, usually after work -- but no longer. This seemingly small phenomenon symbolizes a significant social change that Robert Putnam has identified in this brilliant volume, Bowling Alone, which The Economist hailed as "a prodigious achievement."
Drawing on vast new data that reveal Americans' changing behavior, Putnam shows how we have become increasingly disconnected from one another and how social structures -- whether they be PTA, church, or political parties -- have disintegrated. Until the publication of this groundbreaking work, no one had so deftly diagnosed the harm that these broken bonds have wreaked on our physical and civic health, nor had anyone exalted their fundamental power in creating a society that is happy, healthy, and safe.”

I’m halfway through the book an while there has been no direct mention of slot cars, many of the graphs showing participation on various organizations including hobbies and bowling, show the same rise and decline that slot racing had in the in the same time period.

So there is strong scientific evidence that here are larger societal forces at work here. One chapter in this book points to a similar low in what Putnam calls “Social Capital” and a successful effort to restore it in the 1860’s to 1900’s. I’ve been looking forward to the closing chapters wherein Putnam suggests how to reverse the trends. I’ hoping there’s something there I can take to heart in my slot car business.

Just now I found that Putnam has s new book “Better Together Restoring the American Community” Described as:

In his acclaimed Bowling Alone, Robert Putnam describes the United States as a nation in which we have become increasingly disconnected from one another and in which our social structures have disintegrated. But in the final chapter of that book he detects hopeful signs of civic renewal. In Better Together Putnam and coauthor Lewis Feldstein tell the inspiring stories of people who are reweaving the social fabric by bringing their own communities together or building bridges to others.

So, I suspect I’ve been sucked into a sequel here....

I’ll report back here if I find anything directly useful to regrowing slot car racing. Meanwhile the first book is in public libraries and the second is or will be soon.

[idare2bdul]

Americans under 30 years old are increasingly connected, just not always in the same location. Texting, Twitter, facebook etc. are the uniting tecchnologies. There is even a phone service that alerts you if people from your selected group are in your proximity and alerts you in case you want to get together in person.

In younger people group activities have replaced the more one on one dating or double dating of our youth.

We hide our slot car tracks in poor retail locations, don't advertise and merchandise the stores in unattractive ways and wonder why business declines.

[Lucky Me]

OK. Just a guess... ATARI!

[nomad2race]

Yes, Mike all those things are true.

If you are trying trying to understand the topic at hand; ie "Why slot cars faded so quickly in 1967-8", I'm saying that these books have a wealth of hard data. It looks like it's not all the fault of poor location, insufficent advertisng, etc.

Also, just because more people feel connected by Twittering does not mean that more would expend focused effort to say, build and campaign a D3 car for a season.

It's a different level of commitment and an activity outside the mainstream.

I do think that the new social networking tools are key to turning around this "Social Capital" thing that Putnam is onto and I think the technology can help people with reminders about race dates and impromptu let's go racing invites...

[Tim Neja]

Well one thing is for certain Jim--- you hit on it with your statement--"it's a different level of committment, and an activity outside the mainstream"!

I've NEVER found a more "eclectic" / "diverse" / "crazy" group than those that enjoy slot car racing!!! If your into slots-- you probably should be in analysis for something!!!!!!!

T

[Gary Bluestone]

I have a friend who still recalls his disappointment after buying "Worlds Fastest Production Slot Car", and finding it to be uncompetitive. It seemed as though the cars on the market were obsolete immediately, leaving kids with an empty piggy bank and deep regret after their major investment.
Another friend recalls his car breaking down, and after buying a replacement, giving up after that too broke down. The hobby definitely wasn't for everyone, and the truly mechanically clever kids went on to success, and the enthusiasm wore off the less mechanically inclined.
I myself, still recall the horror of pooling all my saving, along with my brothers, to buy an Eldon set (1962 Ferraris) which turned out to be nearly impossible to race due to constant stalling of the cars. I ended up soldering all the track sections together to salvage the set, and later collected up all the power connecting tracks from other discarded sets, to jump power along the way. Eventually I found some Strombecker track which actually worked good and I scrapped the eldon track. I still have the white Ferrari which I had decorated with decals from a WWII British aircraft and some from the AMT 34 Ford pickup.
There was never a concept of a level playing field in slot car racing. When the Cox 1/32 anglewinders came on the market for the Eldon sets, they made the old inlines obsolete. It was obvious to me that racing these cars all together was lopsided so I began to group the cars into classes. The anglewinders as a class, the inline stockers , the strombeckers, and even the Scalextric motorcycle sidecars were raced against themselves, to keep competitive and fun.Eventually it became clear that you had best run the slower car classes first, because once you got the speedy classes going , it was hard to go back.
This idea of classes was not to the benifit of the commercial interests, since the hobby retailer needed to sell more of the new fast stuff to stay in business.

[Mark Wampler]

One word POLITICS

More applicable to post 60's

[MrWeiler]

Hi Mark

Please explain...

Thanks,

Mike

[Phil Irvin]

I graduated highschool in 66. I had been running the Texas searies that year and got really into it till jan.70. Summer 69 I got into street racing a 63 nova with a small block chev. Got good enough at it that I opened a speed shop that Jan. still raced locally, when not running the nova, untill 72 when the track closed. The last year. I did very little building as I was really trying to make a go with the shop. I got into an NHRA Gass class racing untill 75. I did not have the time to do all. Shop, 1 to 1 racing & slots to.

A while ago. 3 guys came in and saw one of the kids running a womp and liked it. They all bought one and we helped set them up and also helped teach them to run the car. They all got an hour track time and all were doing well for novices. We had to stop them so we could run our races. And the first were the womps. After the 4th heat. They left saying they could never race with us. They just shook their heads. They have not been in since..
And yes. We tried to get them to run
thinkng they couldn't be competitive. I have helped fix, rebuild, when they didn't have the tools and built competitive cars for them to race..AND THEY DON'T STAY...

PHIL

[Gary Bluestone]

I think the level playing field is the answer. Equal cars. equal motor equal tires and equal experience, i.e. a novice class. I think slower cars, such as rubber tires, Monogram are a good entry level. I think the Monogram Scarabs, Ferraris, and Porsches are pretty easy to find.

I was just re-reading the May 1968 Model Car & Science incorporating Model Car and Track. I think this was the last issue! The article about the 1968 Hobby Show, announces the new Cox line up or cars using the Iso-fulcrum chassis. Although at that time, these cars represented an advance in handling, it must have seemed like Cox was just trying to sell off last year's bodies again, no real reason to get excited. As it was, the days were numbered for hardbody commercial racing.

[Guy Spaulding]

Continually advancing technology has been the problem. It's so often been "the latest motor" or "the latest chassis" I was a chassis builder. When I introduced my first 15 chassis, it was the rage in SoCal, and I sold a hundred or more. Then others came along, and I had to upgrade mine to keep pace. So what happened to the people who bought my original version?

[Vay Jonynas]

Continually advancing technology has been the problem.

Good point! I'm not sure that there's any way around that "problem" though.

[nomad2race]

More thoughts:

During the rapid growth of slot cars up to 1968 we had predominately accurate scale cars. It seems to me the attraction was building, (there were few RTR cars) driving the cars for fun, and collecting interesting cars. These activities support raceways.

Perhaps the loss of scale appearance and the generic nature of restrictive formula rules caused many to loose interest.

Also, big smooth tracks with glue and cars that require little driving put a premium of having the lastest, most expensive stuff and/or cheating effectively, so that works against maintaining a big audience as well.

While selling fast stuff can help support raceways, serious racers tend to develop their own sources, independent chassis and motor builders, mail order or sponsorship. So, much of the benefit of a focus on speed and racing is lost to the raceway.

It also seems to me, that when the local hotshoe gets his high dollar scary fast car out and shows off, it generally has a chilling effect on the newcomers and those with slower, more scale cars. In this case the old adage holds: "Speed kills".

Having lived through the decline of 67-68, I hope I've learned something from that. At Nomad Slot Racing in Vista, CA we have had some success in a cross between the best of club/home and commercial racing. Those who try it like it. Visit us if you can.

[Victor Poulin]

Very well said, and I couldn't agree more!!

[don.siegel]

More thoughts:

During the rapid growth of slot cars up to 1968 we had predominately accurate scale cars. It seems to me the attraction was building, (there were few RTR cars) driving the cars for fun, and collecting interesting cars. These activities support raceways.

I lived through this too, and I can't really agree with you.

Those who made really accurate, scale cars were a small minority, always have been always will be (except that now you can buy this kind of car). The majority were just kids who wanted to run, and who cared more or less about presenting a decent looking car. Then, there were the out and out "outlaw", or Thingie racers, probably also a small minority, but more visible than the scale guys, since they mostly used commercial raceways, as opposed to the scale purists, who were generally in clubs.

And in fact, there were an awful lot of RTR cars, starting in late 65 and continuing for the next two years: this is what fueled the huge boom in commercial slot racing. A lot of kids may have built the kits that started coming out in 64-65, but it was the advent of the RTRs that made it a fad.

From my time, I mostly remember that we wanted to get a competitive car on the track, and didn't really think twice about using orange tires, o-rings, etc. - even somebody like me, who generally preferred more scale cars. Then, some of us painted our cars carefully, added a few details, etc., and others just bought a painted body and glued a driver in the uncut cockpit...

Remembering the 60s as a haven of scale slot racing is definitely seeing the past through rose-tinted glasses: it may have been more "scale" than later wing-racing, but it was rarely real scale model racing... Mostly, it was just a mix of all tendencies, and probably followed a classic bell curve...

Don