532 replies to this topic

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

Part of my story, Jim, agrees with Don (I think we only fight about 26ds!). The short version is that in rural north carolina, everyone had a lot of kits. There were 6 raceways within an hour's drive in 6 different towns in 64. And I had a roaring business. Just assembling and prepping these kits and RTRs (5 bucks plus parts).

When the MPC kit came out advertised as the "Fastest Car you can buy" there was a flurry of sales for THOSE.

Lets compare and contrast. My Slotworks, Trinity Gp 10 flexi with a super 16d isn't any slower, though it is 20 years old, than the current versions from Parma and all. Back then? Just consider that in 63, we were running "padlock style" pittmans, then 36s, then the Dyno, then better 36ds, then really better 36ds then RAM/Buchi rewound 36ds in just 18 montht.

From the beginning of 66 to the end of 66, we started with hot 36ds, then pittcans and 26ds and by the end of summber 16d/hemi based franken motors. Cars and motors were obsolete within weeks.

In 67/8, jail doors become floppies become anglewinders?

It was the period of rapid change that had tracks making "formula" races like "group 12" for kids with ready to runs and "Formula III" which was Group 12 F1s.

No stability. If you weren't racing weekly, and upgrading the cars weekley, you were D main stuff. No one wants to feel like they have no chance.

Fate

[Bruce Neasmith]

During 1965-66 weekend kids drove built up kit cars . During the week , night time organised racers also drove kit cars with
maybe some dewind or rewind motors . There was not a huge leap from one level to the next . In 1967-68 the kids still had
their kit cars , some RTR's and some pretty basic home built scratchies . But the night time racers were at a whole new level
with most top runners racing scratchbuilts which included low profile foam tyres , traction compounds and hot motors . There
was a quantum leap between the two groups . Part of that leap was not just commitment but also time and money . The kids
who should be the next wave of top racers lacked skill and money to go to the next level . And at that top level it turned out
that with a bit of skill and more money you could be a pretty consistent winnner . So the kids stopped moving up and the guys
at the top level found only two or three of them could consistently win . Slot car racing has always had to contend with just
a select few able to win and the rest left in the dust . With the introduction of the anglewinder effectively making obsolete
everyones racers , not to mention all then current raceway and wholesalers stock by the end of 1968 , there were quite a few
people who were not real happy about the direction that the hobby was taking . I could go on but this history lesson makes it
very clear that to avoid problems today , we should stick to current guidelines especially in classes like D3 to maintain a level
playing field .

[MantaRay]

Hi Guy, Guess what I found today... A chassis/motor combo that I was able to see some engraving on which indicated that it was built by you. I will take some pics and post them later... As a matter of fact, I think I posted them a year or so ago asking if anyone knew the builder. Maybe they are still up in my Photobucket. I think you called it an "Aggressor"

Continually advancing technology has been the problem. It's so often been "the latest motor" or "the latest chassis" I was a chassis builder. When I introduced my first 15 chassis, it was the rage in SoCal, and I sold a hundred or more. Then others came along, and I had to upgrade mine to keep pace. So what happened to the people who bought my original version?

[MantaRay]

Guy, I found the pics... but will have to go out to the car tomorrow to get the chassis. It will be interesting if you can give us some info about the era when you made this. Hopefully I will be able to identify who you built the chassis for. Sorry about the time drift

[Guy Spaulding]

That chassis is a surprise to me. It has everything built into the original Aggressor 15 production model, except one striking difference. My chassis were an in-gear design, using a main section, bent, using 3 separate bending jigs my father machined for me. Below is a copy of the 15-2, the chassis I had to design because I was getting beat by newer, lighter technology. The only thing retained from the 15-1 is the in-gear center section. I tried to build my frames to "take a hit", so things were re-enforced, like the wire-winding, and the half-tube over the bite-bar retainer seen in both yours and my chassis. All I remember was all the work, getting the bends in the in-gear center section just right. I cant remember building a tube axle version. I can only suspect, you copy may be an original prototype or a copy.

Also, below is shot of my fleet for the 1984 Nats. The 15-1 is there as well, just left of center

Thanks, Ray, for the memories!

Guy

[nomad2race]

Hey Guy!

Nice chassis. I'd love to have a 15-2 for the herd...

[Guy Spaulding]

Thanks, but this is the only copy I have Maybe there's one floating around somewhere. I think the production count was under 100 on this one, since I had to quit building, thanks to the Air Force shipping me to Korea. But I'm not shedding any tears, my beautiful Korean wife and I just celebrated our 19th anniversary!

[HarV Wallbanger III]

Hey Guy I still have one of yours.... I'll see if I can find it. Good to hear from you after all the years!Oh Congrats on 19 years! Annette and I going on 25!

[Guy Spaulding]

I know the Aggressor 15 chassis had gone all over. Ron Granlee told me some even went to Tokyo. I'd like to hear from anyone who has seen them in thier part of the country

Gr8 to see folks like you, Barney, still at it after all these years

[marc]

[ what happen ??? well first let me say i've been reading and catching up as i have only come back into slot cars in the
past year. 1966 -1969 was a diffrent time diffrent world , we traveled by foot , bike bus to where we went our parents let us make our own way. the now world ! the younger of us have been driven , shielded and pampered. [i know i know here we go again with the story about walking to school in the snow up hill thru mine fields ] well heres the facts as kids most of us on this board could play all day with a stick and be happy at the end of the day . some where the world changed for good and now we look to slot cars to go back into that world that realy dosen't exist, now don't get me wrong here i found that slots were still alive only by acident hearing about slot car racing i went to a place i heard of only by third hand info expecting to find ho's or plastic track set ups. boy was i surprised to find there were 4 full blown commerial tracks in my 1 hour driveing range.

mecca !!!!!!!! upon arriveing a each location i found the same thing old guys like my self ,,huh !! oh there was a few younger ones around too , but mostly the previous.. bottom line is most of our youner population is i pod phone blue tooth computer
conected and don't mix well with real people . modern parents are not going to let ther kids go to any entertainment that fully grown weierdo's from the stone age hang out at !!!!!!!! weird perverts xhippy types free thinkers are just plain people that are strange misfits ... ok so theres two reasons !!!!!!!!

when i was 12 or 13 my social group was hot and heavy into race cars plastic electric and real ,,we even we involved in boy scouts with a real live stock car. after the millitary days we all expericed ,we came back to that changed world our friends were mostly scattered in diffrent directions of interest and obligations .. so we went ahead on our own . for me with out a group of helpers the full size stock car was to much for one man so i converted to drag racing , that went on for decades. then all of a sudden i awakened to be the only guy still swinging a 4 spd in a full body car in a sea of drag racer want to be's in dragsters towed in closed up trailers behind million dollar motor homes.these guys had delay boxs elec shifters factory like
built cars and motors. speed was the most important thing if your car didn't run 7 seconds flat you weren't a racer. the most often asked question i got was who built you car "me " whats that thing with the black knob and how come you got two brake pedals ?? make a 8 second run in a stick shift car made to haul you grandmother to the stop and shop that give ya rush !! ain't like that just push the pedal in a car 80 feet long with a powerglide that shifts it self.. yer a busy cat !!

so what happened ???? again every body wants to be a super hero now buy it over the counter and be the best , so here comes a new guy and he buys a car that runs in the fastest class of little toy car racing game and he figures hes gonna rip every body a new one with his supierior driveing skills--- he fails and is never seen again , one customer lost ! next guy comes in a says this is cool i'm gonna get it to this ,bingo he finds out they don't race any thing basic he can start out and learn the game with -oophs he's gone. what i'm saying here is our new found socicity is a i'll pay to be cool but i don't want to start as a smooe ! i what to he the best right away ,thier not gonna race a womp with the 8 year olds and get there butt kicked so there out the door another one lost .

so you want a anwser on how to fix it like the 60's ???? and what happened ?? ain't got one here i'm the new guy i'm here haveing fun and i don't realy care if i win ,or run with the kids i'm haveing fun... if you have a shop remember me when when you make the rules and classes
and maybe more of us will show up and stay.. oh i almost forgot don't dismiss that 1/32 digital track you could find a spot
for and some cars if you haven't tried racing with digital 1/32 your missing out on a whole new world now i like the high speed commercial and the comedy of a womp race, but six cars in one lane on a tight twisty narrow road .slipery track with real pit stops.i don't care if your car has wings or if bullwinkle is driveing it i'm haveing fun..
like the movie "if you build it they'll come ...you just have to try and be more flexable the money is out ther go get it .

[Alchemist]

HI Marc and welcome!

"1966 -1969 was a diffrent time diffrent world "


I don't believe anyone would debate that!!! Thanks for sharing your story!


Ernie

[marc]

hi ernie : thanks for the reply, whats the scoop on out west ? are slot very popular
here is like i described old crowd new guys seem to come and go . 4 tracks here
deciet crowds 3 tracks run weekly shows flexi based cars nascar gt1 gtp on verisons of
hill climbs. 2 tracks run oval shows with one womps ,eastern modifieds [jk indy chassis
with jk body one on a small oval with sub 2 second laps fast and crazy ] the other on a replica of
daytona [very large and fast ] they run womps, retro brm and a 4 1/2 carbon fiber chassised hard body
nascar.there is a whole segment of digital 1/32 guys around that nobody has tried to tap into thats a
whole new market thats just out there for the picking i believe the first track owner to tap that will
make out supurbly as they are colectors and racers and spend large sums on new releases.

as i said in my post i've been back into this about a year first the 1/32 digital then the commercial
its a relaxing frantic hobby when i stopped every thing was inline so all this anglewinder flexi
stuff is new to me but i'm catching on...
marc

[idare2bdul]

As fads go slot racing probably lasted longer than most. Given how flimsy, ill handling or just plain slow many of the RTR's were it did pretty well.

[Old pink can guy]

Surfing, motocross, and FREE LOVE!

[68Caddy]

Chicks. What else.


Nesta

[Vay Jonynas]

Chicks. What else.


Nesta

Sure, but your answer misses the point. Eleven and twelve year olds took up slot car racing in droves in 1964-65. Why did a new crop of eleven and twelve year olds not take up the hobby/activity in similar numbers to replace the fellows moving into adolescence three short years later in 1967-68? Was it the rapid pace of technological change in slot cars that lead to increased complexity/sophistication/cost or was it simply societal factors? That's really the crux of the question.

[marc]

fox yea i can see these neohumanoids letting there kid go to slot car track by them selves ...
sorry but we;ve forgoten we went out side by ourselves we walked to school with out a secrect service escort
and we could entertain our selves with a stick without electronic gagets... almost daily i have to remind some
of my employee's that they need to work not spend 3/4 of the day with cell phone conversation's
about how to open a jar of peanut butter or how to make toast with there children.

our generation may be the last to survive and live selfprofitanty .. i'm trying my best not to sound like the
ole grump guy telling the story about how good it was back then... but after some thought how can
any hobby .craft ,recreational activity survive today most people won't work are burried in self
induced mountians of dept and sit home in a house they can't afford [if they still have one ] looking at there
lexus and bmw they can't afford and don't need most of there cash is already spent for the next 35 years.

oh ! what killed slotcars in the sixty's same thing as now too large an area needed and too high rents.

[Mike Wyatt]

I see three main contributors to the decline of slot racing in the late 1960's:

1. Decline of the "car culture"- in 1970 the American manufacturers realized that they were losing ground to (primarily) VW- they responded with great cars like the Vega, the Pinto, the Colt, and the Gremlin- more boring than the cars of ten years earlier like the Mustang. Then, 1973 and the "oil crisis"- a dramatic increase in the cost of gasoline (from about $ .30 before to 1.00 after the crisis was over). Cars were not as fun any more to the 13- 14 year olds of 1970, like they were to the 13-14 year olds of ten years earlier. In fact piston heads were considered throwbacks and it was poor taste to be a "car guy". Plus, it didn't help when slot cars started looking like doorstops.

2. Fad leading to frustration factor: any "new" thing has a fast rise followed by a drop. In the case of COMPETITIVE new things like slot car racing, I think that drop happens even faster, as the newbies realize they are doomed to MONTHS of losing and hundreds of dollars of spending, before they are even close to competitive. Add to that the rapid change allowed by no rules racing, and it was just overwhelming to a newbie of 1967. Imagine somebody today who plunks down their $100 for a stamped steel car, then realizes they have to buy a $300 controller, a $200 tire truer, and a power supply to run it? This is why we MUST keep basic classes basic, and race them.

3. Rapid rise of retail costs. To have a raceway the size and scope of what was standard in the 1960's takes something like 3000 square feet. At $9 - $24/ sq. ft.per year (2005 numbers for Cincinnati OH- where I lived), that translates to rent of from $27,000 to $ 72,000 a year-- in rent alone. A King track is 49 X 22, but add 5 ft clearance to each end and to each side, and it takes up 1888 sq. ft. At the rent costs above, the King track costs $1400 to $3500 2005 dollars in rent alone per month. The industry would have been far better served if it had developed around 6-lane tracks, and 1/32 scale- perhaps halving the rent it takes for a raceway. Add this big increase in rents about 1970 came at a time when there was a big fallout of customers- ugh.

What to do? If I were starting a raceway today, I would have two tracks- an oval, and a moderately-banked roadcourse, both six lanes, and I would order them with minimum lane clearance. Adds to the competitiveness- hard to pass, and close action for 1/24th cars. OK for 1/24 cars, but a LOT better for 1/32 cars. The tracks would take perhaps 1/3 less space. I would then feature and be sure to have racing for 1/32 cars- but not the scale cars (Scalextric, Carrera etc.)- too easy to just run them at home. I would run the ISRA-type cars. I would have a basic class that ran resister controllers, cheap sealed motors, and strict rules. Then the racers could step up to more sophisticated cars, if they like. Then if my cuistomers wanted them, I'd stock 1/24th cars. And, I would have NICE place- not a dump.

[marc]

mike you've got a the basic reasons down >>> and you spelled out the real probem rules and experence and the lack of willingness to change

first the peter princapal starts out with new guy A he comes gets interested but the hitch is every bodys flying around the tracks so he buys the fastest car available and great controller some tools and spare parts 2011 or 1967 its the same thing ,
he just over steped his talent level by a mile and a half ..why because the track owner doesn't want to try and run a class for the new guys he'll tell ya right up front the expienced old guys are his best money cows and he don't want to upset them ..
he should have a class with cars and controllers provided by the track for a place for the new guy to start with out spending a million, but you see he can't because that investment in his own future cost to much.[ ya right } he would rather sell one car and lose a potential customer. that has been the same since 1967 an didn't work then nor will it work today ..

if i was to open a shop , i'd start with two tracks a oval and some thing thats not a monster in size but some thing with a good flow and retivly easy to race on . i would have races one nite a week on the oval with my track cars and controllers
and make entry cheap say maybe 5 bucks ...the cars would be good learners maybe fcr's with death stars . as the rookie progressed he could buy his own and i'd have another race for new car owners with spec tires , gears .and front tires that touch the track surface. we would also have a class for the other track with more liberal rules better motors you own choice of tires and gears . a then a class to move up to flexi style racing and of coure a experienced class structure to advance to ... i'd pretty much forget all classs now in existance and move to what people like that would take some time and thought but you can guantee the cars would look like cars and not bubbles. some where slot cars went for the experinced
hard core customers { 120 of us } and forgot it realy just entertainment ..

the way it works now is just like the past a potential customer comes in and see's the hot shoe burning laps and thinks thats what i'm gonna do and he fails and goes away . you see the kids of today are intrested in cars but not the cars we think ,,there dream is a honda prelude with a turbo stereo and nox !!!

so why did it fail ????? lack of willingness to change to fit the general populations needs and wants ...
i bet if you had a whomp with a body resembling a I pod with flashing lights the kids would go crazy for one ..

oh i don't see it changeing any time soon so lets not hold our breath ...in the mean time tracks will still try and stay open with the rotateing 9 to 12 people that come and race once a week just like 1968 1969 1970 then start smaller again in 1980 1981 1982 and smaller again in 1990 1991 1992 and again smaller in 2008 2009 2010 >>>>>>>>

[Vay Jonynas]

1. Decline of the "car culture"- in 1970 the American manufacturers realized that they were losing ground to (primarily) VW- they responded with great cars like the Vega, the Pinto, the Colt, and the Gremlin- more boring than the cars of ten years earlier like the Mustang. Then, 1973 and the "oil crisis"- a dramatic increase in the cost of gasoline (from about $ .30 before to 1.00 after the crisis was over). Cars were not as fun any more to the 13- 14 year olds of 1970, like they were to the 13-14 year olds of ten years earlier. In fact piston heads were considered throwbacks and it was poor taste to be a "car guy". Plus, it didn't help when slot cars started looking like doorstops.

That's putting your finger right on a really good point. In 1963-64 a lot of twelve year olds dreamed of having a hot rod or even becoming big time racers. Ny 1968-69, however, they were dreaming of buying their own electric guitar and becoming rock stars.

I would then feature and be sure to have racing for 1/32 cars- but not the scale cars (Scalextric, Carrera etc.)- too easy to just run them at home.

That would be a bad mistake. There are many slot car enthusiasts out there who actively accumulate dozens of the Scalextric, Carrera, etc. cars for their aesthetic appeal alone. It makes no sense whatsoever to shut out the collector market as a source of sales.

I think too many owners of slot car tracks may be overspecializing these days. It used to be the case that they were just a part of hobby shops selling model kits and train sets as well as slot cars.

[Mike Wyatt]

That's putting your finger right on a really good point. In 1963-64 a lot of twelve year olds dreamed of having a hot rod or even becoming big time racers. Ny 1968-69, however, they were dreaming of buying their own electric guitar and becoming rock stars.



That would be a bad mistake. There are many slot car enthusiasts out there who actively accumulate dozens of the Scalextric, Carrera, etc. cars for their aesthetic appeal alone. It makes no sense whatsoever to shut out the collector market as a source of sales.

I think too many owners of slot car tracks may be overspecializing these days. It used to be the case that they were just a part of hobby shops selling model kits and train sets as well as slot cars.

[SlowToyCars]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -
Go to your local Oval Track on a Saturday occasionally.
In the higher classes, you have the same small group of guys who are always there, year after year. Drop down a class or two, the front runners are there perennially, the backmarkers change every couple of years. Drop down another level, you'll see only a couple of guys who are perennials, and the majority of the field will change every couple of years, and if you have the lowest class, you're likely only to see 1 or 2 guys who are regulars, the rest will change sometimes mid-season or more often, as they aren't competitive, and they run out of interest trying to get competitive, or they move up a class if they have the money, as it's easier to get good equipment, then, they'll struggle there for a bit, and quit....

It's RACING! How many people come and go in less than a few races in the Truck series, how many guys at the top level (CUP) are there year after year after year?

We see the same type of turnover in Slot Cars. It's mostly because it is RACING. It's competitive. It doesn't really differ much from any other sport - How many kids play baseball, football, soccer, etc.? How many of them continue on long-term comparatively?

I think you guys are trying to find a reason that doesn't exist. Simply put, it's a competitive sport, and I think someone pointed out, it enjoyed a big surge in popularity, bringing a bunch of people in, but as any other competitive item does, it fails to retain a large majority.

Some people here have the right general idea, and it works to a point - you have to decide someway how to divide up the experience levels, and competitive levels, and allow people to race against people their own level. It won't solve the issue, but it helps. (This is why you have Parks and Rec Softball all over the country, because some people want to continue to play, but they aren't pro, semi-pro, or anything good stock, they just enjoy the game!)

Start looking at this as a competitive sport, and you'll start to see your answers.

[marc]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -
Go to your local Oval Track on a Saturday occasionally.
In the higher classes, you have the same small group of guys who are always there, year after year. Drop down a class or two, the front runners are there perennially, the backmarkers change every couple of years. Drop down another level, you'll see only a couple of guys who are perennials, and the majority of the field will change every couple of years, and if you have the lowest class, you're likely only to see 1 or 2 guys who are regulars, the rest will change sometimes mid-season or more often, as they aren't competitive, and they run out of interest trying to get competitive, or they move up a class if they have the money, as it's easier to get good equipment, then, they'll struggle there for a bit, and quit....

It's RACING! How many people come and go in less than a few races in the Truck series, how many guys at the top level (CUP) are there year after year after year?

We see the same type of turnover in Slot Cars. It's mostly because it is RACING. It's competitive. It doesn't really differ much from any other sport - How many kids play baseball, football, soccer, etc.? How many of them continue on long-term comparatively?

I think you guys are trying to find a reason that doesn't exist. Simply put, it's a competitive sport, and I think someone pointed out, it enjoyed a big surge in popularity, bringing a bunch of people in, but as any other competitive item does, it fails to retain a large majority.

Some people here have the right general idea, and it works to a point - you have to decide someway how to divide up the experience levels, and competitive levels, and allow people to race against people their own level. It won't solve the issue, but it helps. (This is why you have Parks and Rec Softball all over the country, because some people want to continue to play, but they aren't pro, semi-pro, or anything good stock, they just enjoy the game!)

Start looking at this as a competitive sport, and you'll start to see your answers.

good points its also a money thing .. to race it takes money and many tire very quickly when they enter into the i;ll out spend you to win game. they tire very quickly after they relieze there makeing no headway in the faster classes and
are dumping a hundred bucks a week into racing.
its true in real racing also . a lot of guys start out in a lower class like a street stock or bomber they have fun and
win some .. the jump to a sportsman or even a super late model and dissapear in a short time because they misjudged
the increased cost of faster equipment... this happend in the sixtys same as it goes on today it slotcars what i'm saying is some raceways don't have a place for the guy haveing fun on a small budget to race .....

[stumbley]

(This is why you have Parks and Rec Softball all over the country, because some people want to continue to play, but they aren't pro, semi-pro, or anything good stock, they just enjoy the game!)

This is also why you have club "racing" all over the country and in Europe as well. Unless and until the "commercial" slot car crowd realizes that for most folks who enjoy slot cars, it's a hobby, not a sport, and that the "purpose" of slot cars is enjoyment and fun rather than winning...you'll see fewer and fewer "racers" at commercial tracks. No one who isn't prepared to spend the $$ and time to be competitive with those who consider slots a "sport" is going to come back week after week to be humiliated by the guys who come to RACE.

For most of us (outside the commercial circuit), they're toy cars that we have fun playing with.

This is not to say that there's not a place for racers, or that highly-competitive slot racing is wrong or bad or anything like that, it's just that there are very few among the potential people who could enjoy slot racing who are prepared to spend the $$ and effort to be "racers" in the sense you're speaking of. The track owner that caters to only one faction of potential slotters does so at his/her peril.

[don.siegel]

The same thing happens in clubs - not automatically, but it's always a very delicate juggling act to get the right balance, and hope nobody goes overboard. Has nothing to do with it being a commercial business or a private club. Slot racing is still competitive and you'll always get somebody willing to spend more time and/or money to win (or just being more talented of course).

We've even had people cheating to win plastic trophies in friendly vintage races... hard to understand, but there it is.

Don