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I just want consistent motors


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#26 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 03:28 PM

Sorry, Tim.

But there have been numerous rockets, including Howie's Sano winner and lap record setter.

Regardless, the attempt was to narrow the field and Tim's findings were on a dyno, not a track.

As far as BP results, you guys march to the beat of a different drum. 10t pinions, no weight limits, ever changing track conditions.

It's hard to compare anything you do with the rest of the Retro world.

 

Mike,

 

If you are talking about Howie's cars this year, I think you may be mistaken. I know for a fact no 7R7R7R motors were raced in Howie's Coupe, Can-Am, or the F1 cars at this year's Sano.

 

Period!

 

I am sure there are some of the new motors that run just fine. It may take a while for the older faster fast motors to get used up. It is what it is.

 

Tim trying to make changes to make the motors closer in performance I am sure was done with good intentions. If done to make more profit that's business. Someone attempting to find out why the motors seemed to be slower, also done with good intentions.

 

The arms do meter higher on the new motors. The reason, more winds, smaller wire, bad conections at the comm, who knows. Something has been changed.

 

If people can't deal with it, quit racing. The manfacturer could put pressure on the Chinese to undo what thay have done, Good luck with that.

 

I say let Tim verify what is going on and let him take care of the issue like he did with the short shaft motors. He is in complete control, it's his business. Stop pointing fingers and resolve the problem. If it can't be resolved then live with it.  

 

GVP


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#27 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 03:57 PM

GVP,
 
Good post.
 
Howie ran a 7R motor in his F1 winner.
 
He confirmed it on Facebook and took a better pic of the bottom of the car.
 
But you can see it in Bill Fulmer's pic, if you look real hard. Where it's most clear, is in the upper right hand corner, you can see the engraved "R."
 
On any of the previous generations of Retro Hawks, there isn't any printing or engraving in that corner.
 
Howie's F1 winner

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

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#28 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 04:26 PM

Well hell, all I want to do is race my slot cars now and again. If I run a TSR, fine. If I run a F7, fine. If I run a Hawk Retro, fine. When someone wins with whatever motor, fine. I just want to race these cars while we can with whatever damn motor I can.

These are slot cars for crying out loud! Choose whatever motor you desire and give it your best shot. OK, done.
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#29 Bill from NH

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 04:42 PM

Tom,

I'll add racing for bragging rights and occasionally a trophy. This sounds like my "run-what-you-brung" racing days in the '60s. :)
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#30 Rob Voska

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 06:38 PM

This thread is like the last 50 threads about motors. Time to lock it up as it's redundant.
 
PS: If I was selling motors I would order 1,000 motors to one fast spec and 10,000 average motors. Mix them all together when filling orders and send them to every distributor and corner of the country. Every track ends up with a few rockets and the rest will sell by guys looking for the rocket. Wash, rinse, repeat.



#31 Phil Hackett

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 06:57 PM

If I was selling motors I would order 1,000 motors to one fast spec and 10,000 average motors. Mix them all together when filling orders and send them to every distributor and corner of the country. Every track ends up with a few rockets and the rest will sell by guys looking for the rocket. Wash, rinse, repeat.

 
What makes you think this hasn't already happened? :D
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#32 Pappy

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 07:07 PM

There is a motor that was made that is much more consistent and has never changed - it's the TSR!!


How many batches have been ordered and can you guarantee that the next batch will be as consistent and fast as the last batches?
Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
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#33 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 07:08 PM

Howie ran a 7R motor in his F1 winner.
 
He confirmed it on Facebook and took a better pic of the bottom of the car.
 
But you can see it in Bill Fulmer's pic, if you look real hard. Where it's most clear, is in the upper right hand corner, you can see the engraved "R."
 
On any of the previous generations of Retro Hawks, there isn't any printing or engraving in that corner.

 

Mike,

 

You need to look at the close-ups of the winners cars. Very close and clear images of the motor, no engraving on the motor at all that I could see. Just like when I looked at the car before tech. You eyes must be better than mine as I see nothing laser etched on the motor in the picture you posted. The new motors are marked with a series of 7s and Rs that would not just an R.

 

Not going to fight about it, not worth it, it's only people playing with little race cars. We just have to agree to disagree.

 

Regards,

 

GVP

 

PS: Close it up, nothing being accomplished, just more talking and no action. Tim will handle it as best he can.


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#34 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 07:12 PM

Phil,

 

I see your smiley face, but as a fellow slot racing manufacturer and (at least past) vendor to most of the motor companies, your comment is rude.

You should join Facebook where your offhand, barstool comments are the norm and welcome.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#35 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 07:20 PM

You need to look at the close-ups of the winners cars. Very close and clear images of the motor, no engraving on the motor at all that I could see. Just like when I looked at the car before tech. You eyes must be better than mine as I see nothing laser etched on the motor in the picture you posted. The new motors are marked with a series of 7s and Rs that would not just an R.

 

You can see an R in the upper right hand corner. The rest of the 7R engraving, and Made in China, is not visible due to the angle and lighting of the pic.

Howie posted a clear pic of the motor in the car in either the Rick page, or Slot Car Race Talk page, in the thread concerning the 7R motors.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#36 Tim Neja

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 08:27 PM

The whole reason the TSR is not the choice for motor is because the Retro Hawk is faster!!! That simply obsoletes any motor that is slower!!! The TSR was as consistent as anything we've ever had. Bryan Warmack will also verify this thought. I've spoken to him many times and he feels the TSR was as good a motor as we've ever had, as do I. But when a faster one becomes legal - the slower one will be obsolete.
 
 If Tim will stop tinkering with the motor - i.e. shaft size, wire size, what ever - just let them be consistent!! Then everything will sort itself out. The new motors seem to have more variance than every before - that is a problem. Just leave it alone and let the quality be what it is!! Changes are what drive us nuts, we know we are not going to get a super equal cheap motor. It is what it is - but constant changes make it worse!!
 
I'll stand by the same thing Tim Wilkins said to you, Greg., attitude in how you say it means everything. Sure, I could buy a motor - why? So you can obsolete it like they did to PdL? He did put his money where his mouth was; look where it got him. 
 
As far as the TSR being competitive and consistent - take a look at our flat track races. The podium is still filled with TSR motors - because they work fine on a flat driver's track. But any track with high speed corners with all things being equal, like driver skill and car setup, becomes a motor dyno!! Then the motor means a lot more and .010 secs is the difference in winning the A or back marker in the C Main. 
 
Swiss stumped like a bad politician all over for the Retro Hawk to become the motor of choice. And it drove out the Puppy Dogs, and the TSRs and Falcons. Now, we have the motor being changed and tinkered with and it's creating problems because it's become the only motor we use. Just stop trying to "improve" it!! It's not helping.
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#37 Samiam

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 08:53 PM

Tim,

 

The thin wire, if that is the issue, is on the Chinese. They did not check the thickness or just figured that -.0005" was close enough for a toy car motor. Or just didn't care. 

 

Can I suggest you guys just temporarily switch to the TSR till this is sorted out?


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#38 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 08:57 PM

Tim did not change the wire size. Why would he?

Bryan and Cukras did not have to change to the Retro Hawk.

I promoted the Hawk Retro because it performed real well in it's maiden voyage.

David Krumnow podiumed in three different hand-out races at Sano 7, with the same motor. No FK had ever had that longevity.

But I never contacted Bryan and suggest the SCRRA adopt the Hawk Retro.

And your claim that the Hawk Retro is faster than the TSR D3 and Falcon 7 is not entirely accurate.

Mill has TQ'd and competed for the win on the King, with his old, no longer available, yellow label, JK circa Falcon 7s. Sounds like his old F7's are plenty fast.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#39 Bill from NH

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:13 PM

If the TSR is more reliable, more consistent, or whatever buzz words one wants to use, there is nothing stopping a racing organization from making it their "motor of choice" and outlawing all others, even if some of the other motors are faster.

 

NorCal Retro doesn't seem to be experiencing such motor problems..


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#40 John Streisguth

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:15 PM

NorCal Retro doesn't seem to be experiencing such motor problems.


Really? That's not what I've been reading...
"Whatever..."

#41 Phil Hackett

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:31 PM

I see your smiley face, but as a fellow slot racing manufacturer and (at least past) vendor to most of the motor companies, your comment is rude.

 
I should have clarified this comment has nothing to do with the current motors.
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#42 Bill from NH

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:55 PM

Really?  That's not what I've been reading...

 
John, to clarify my point, I should have said NorCal Retro doesn't have to run the fastest motors available. They don't seem to be speed demons like in Orange county.

Bill Fernald
 

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#43 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 10:03 PM

They do allow the Hawk Retro in Can-Am.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#44 Tim Neja

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 10:30 PM

Mill has TQ'd and never finished with one. I ran a Falcon at the Boola Bash - and it slowed down in qualifying so I ended up in the B Main. I changed the motor between heats - lost seven laps and still made the move-up. Then podium'd with the Retro Hawk.

I'm done posting - you want to ignore what's happening, that's fine. Keep your head in the sand. Sad that we can't just leave the motor alone and race and have fun. That's all.
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#45 MSwiss

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:10 PM

My point is, claiming Tim requested the wire size to be changed, is absolutely silly.

In the meantime, out East, at the next big race, the Fall Brawl, Howie PM'd me with this:

"Hansen has a couple of 7Rs that are fast, he bought six - two duds, two good, two fast."

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#46 Rob Voska

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 07:30 AM

Hansen has a couple of 7Rs that are fast, he bought six - two duds, two good, two fast.

 
In my mind that makes those motors cost $45 each with a lot of hassle and "luck" thrown in.

#47 Cheater

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 07:41 AM

In other words, about the cost of one Puppy Dog, with the same "hassle and 'luck' thrown in" and just as likely not to be fast, as the Pro Slots are known to be less consistent than the Hawk Retros.

But Hansen got two fast motors for his money...

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#48 Pablo

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 08:33 AM

IMO, the amount of time spent discussing disposable Retro motors would be better spent actually building motors.

At the end of the day you would have actually constructed something and experienced the pleasure of learning.

 

I'll go back and hide in my vintage cave now :laugh2:


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#49 Cheater

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 08:56 AM

The whole reason the TSR is not the choice for motor is because the Retro Hawk is faster!!! That simply obsoletes any motor that is slower!!! The TSR was as consistent as anything we've ever had. Bryan Warmack will also verify this thought. I've spoken to him many times and he feels the TSR was as good a motor as we've ever had, as do I. But when a faster one becomes legal - the slower one will be obsolete.


The never-ending shibboleth that faster is always better and preferable... why? Do faster motors generate higher levels of participation? Do faster motors generate closer racing? Do faster motors ultimately generate more profit for the raceways and manufacturers? Until someone can enumerate actual and real benefits accruing from a faster motor as compared to a slower motor, I'm not buying it. The insistence so many express that faster is better is a fallacy IMO, and the historical facts of just about every form of 1/24 slots over the entire history of the hobby do not support that opinion. If I'm wrong in this claim, tell us where it has happened.
 

If Tim will stop tinkering with the motor - i.e. shaft size, wire size, what ever - just let them be consistent!! Then everything will sort itself out. The new motors seem to have more variance than every before _ that is a problem. Just leave it alone and let the quality be what it is!! Changes are what drive us nuts, we know we are not going to get a super equal cheap motor. It is what it is - but constant changes make it worse!!


So each batch of Falcons produced under Jerry's ownership was more consistent? And he never made any changes from batch to batch? That's not the opinions I've seen posted here. Jerry sure wasn't excoriated as Tim has been in recent weeks.
 

I'll stand by the same thing Tim Wilkins said to you, Greg, attitude in how you say it means everything. Sure, I could buy a motor - why? So you can obsolete it like they did to PdL? He did put his money where his mouth was; look where it got him.


You can't have it both ways, Tim. If the TSR was a sufficiently-consistent sealed motor in your opinion, why wasn't it embraced by the racers at BPR? I guess because the alternatives were faster... or perhaps the almost-certainly unobtainable level of consistency you are demanding is less important to others than to you.

My point to you is that continuing to demand "consistent motors" (and you need to more clearly define what that vague term means to you - is a spread of a three tenths from fastest to slowest motors acceptable? Two tenths? One tenth?) you're insisting on is something that almost certainly cannot be delivered by anyone at the level you desire within the constraints of cost, manufacturing availability, and market size that apply. And what you insist has to happen has never occurred in the entire history of competitive 1/24 slot racing, not in any class under any rules.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#50 JimF

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 09:52 AM

Seems to me that some of the arguments being thrown around in this thread actually have little bearing on the problem at hand...

  • The evidence and testimony suggests pretty overwhelmingly that the new batch is as a whole slower than the old batch.
  • The fact that Sam, Howie, or Tom got fast 7R motors does not change the fact that the new batch is slower.
  • The fact that it's not JK Tim's fault also does not change the fact that that the new batch is slower.
  • The fact that the new batch is more consistent than the old does not not change the fact that the batch is slower.
  • The fact that some guys race to win and other guys race to play does not change the variance between the batches.

None of the justifications will change the fact that the new batch is slower. Pointing out that JK Tim has to fix it is silly. He can't fix it. It also doesn't matter what happened or why. It is what it is. The various governing bodies can't fix it either. But... It is however, the responsibility of the governing bodies to figure out how to deal with it.

 

So... I'd suggest that we all just shut up and let the governing bodies deal with it.


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