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The Vintage-style Idea


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#26 JimF

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 01:44 PM

I think I can "get" was Steve was thinking about. I considered something vaguely similar for NorCal Retro a few years back. I thought about keeping the current chassis rules as spec'd by most organizations but elimination some of the SCM (tech term...  :D) provisions. At the time it seemed that possibly a slower (spec) motor like a Mini Brute, a lower downforce body (Ferrari 612, McLaren Mk 6, etc.) and no add-on spoliers, would be a fun way to go.

 

This would be a fun class for a lot of venues including club situations.


Jim Fowler




#27 Noose

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 01:53 PM

The Jail Door classes were fun as Mike Katz said. The rules were based on the old R&C rule sets and Tony and I wrote them. Kept things simple. The sports cars were fun and the GP cars were a handful. LOL. 

 

Here are the rules if anyone is interested. I have a lot of the JD GP bodies if anyone is interested in them, too.

 

Simple to tech, too.

 

Attached File  R&CJDSportsCarsRules2010-Rev-1FINAL.pdf   754.45KB   49 downloads

 

Attached File  R&CJailDoorGrandPrixRules2010Rev-1-Final.pdf   467.86KB   43 downloads


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#28 Half Fast

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 02:01 PM

I wanna do what I wanna do, when everyone wants to do something different, is not a reasonable basis for a racing class.

 

Cheers,


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#29 Jairus

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 02:28 PM

Steve never posted that he was suggesting a "racing class."
 


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#30 MSwiss

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 02:53 PM

A "display class?"

If it isn't some sort of competition, with more than one guy doing it, it shouldn't need an A, B, C proviso.
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Mike Swiss
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#31 slotbaker

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 04:51 PM

A fun building class...

 

:huh:


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#32 MSwiss

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 04:56 PM

Like I said, I didn't realize you need rules to build what you want to build.


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Mike Swiss
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#33 gc4895

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 05:04 PM

Let's forget the 1/16 inch all around clearance idea. That was artificially imposed by track owners thinking they were protecting their investment. Experience has shown this isn't necessary. And it degrades the on-track performance of the toy cars for no reason.

 

Basically all that is desired can be found in current Retro racing as far as I can tell.


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#34 hiline2

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 09:52 PM

This vintage enuff?

 

IMG_4572.JPG

 

IMG_4569.JPG

 


Paul Bass

#35 MSwiss

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Posted 06 December 2016 - 10:15 PM

Cool.

 

Those candy-colored Du-Bro bodies were a staple at my local raceway, B & C Hobby Shop.

 

How big is that spur?


Mike Swiss
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#36 Steve Okeefe

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:37 AM

Wow!  Lots of responses, and from all over the map.

 

I can't answer everyone individually, so I'll answer a few and respond in general to the rest.

 

First, Ramcatlarry wrote: "Item 'C' is where I have a problem. In the early 1960s, we invented the parts that later became 'commercial' parts. You fabricated what you needed from what you could find."

 

I've been having problems with "Item C" also; it's a very slippery topic.  One of the most important pieces of this Vintage-style idea is that the cars are built and maintained with parts anyone can get right now from almost any retailer.  No nearly impossible to get, fragile, irreplaceable, stoopid expensive vintage parts at all.  Vintage parts, and especially rare and expensive vintage parts should, and rightly so, be reserved for serious building projects replicating the history of our hobby - not just banging around the track for the fun of it.

 

However I DO NOT mean to imply that every single part in the entire car MUST be purchased from a retailer (and thank you for pointing that out!)  You purchase whatever parts you need or want from the retailer of your choice, and fabricate whatever other parts you want (the most obvious example would be parts for the chassis) to build your car.  Just like when we were doing this for real back in the late sixties, the goal is (as John Havlicek puts it) to "tinker together" a functional car and have fun doing it.   I still fabricate what I need from what I can find all the time - have you ever seen my Popsicle stick wing car?

 

Mike Swiss has been quite vocal with his ideas, opinions and questions, so I'll try to respond in a "lightning round" style:

 

"This just sounds like Retro to me."

 

Okay, it sounds like Retro to you (and others), but it is emphatically not.  No car I build in vintage-style would ever pass tech in a Retro race.  Cars built to look and perform like vintage racers, whether they are replicas or just vintage-style are not Retro racers, and Retro Racers are not vintage anything.  Vintage and Retro are different animals.  The Retro guys have nothing to be the slightest bit concerned about from me.

 

"What exactly is different?"

 

Retro builds to rules, whereas I (and anyone else who is interested) will be building to knowledge and discipline, in order to achieve a specific historically accurate appearance and performance.

 

Slightly looser chassis rules?

 

No rules; knowledge and discipline.

 

"And the the term "commercially available" is really up to interpretation."

 

And I think you are engaging in obfuscation.  Here is my "interpretation": You buy slot car parts from a slot car retailer, you buy materials and supplies from McMaster-Carr or Amazon or your local hobby shop.  You buy whatever you need to build your car from people who are in business to sell retail products to the public.

 

"IMO, you would have a real big, complicated rule book, or the most hated tech director on the planet. LOL"

 

No rule book, no tech director, no bickering, no dickering, no hassles.  If you want to organize a racing series for these things and deal with the headaches, go ahead. I never said anything about organized racing.

 

"I don't get how you tech the "vintage look" when you state "Innovative design solutions are encouraged."

 

It's easy; there is no tech.  Regarding the "vintage look", anyone who cannot tell the difference between a vintage 1968 Steube or Emott chassis and a modern chassis has no business doing this and need not apply.  And as I recall, pro builders in the late sixties and early seventies came up with clever and innovative design solutions with notable regularity, and virtually all of them passed tech.  Building a vintage-style 1967 Jaildoor inline would properly require the D-can motor to be mounted in an endbell drive configuration.  To accomplish this with a vintage-style motor based on a Parma Deathstar or Rotor setup would require an innovative design solution, right?

 

"This sounds like a great idea if there was a eight-dozen retired guys, hanging out at the track 3 days a week, building, and they could run their "innovative designs" by the track owner or tech director."

 

This sounds like you have something against retired guys having fun doing what they like.  Retired guys are notorious for not giving a hoot what anybody thinks.  But at least you concede that it could be a great idea.  There's hope yet.

 

"All you need is someone putting 6 hours into a chassis, and be told it can't run, to kill the class."

 

It's not a "class", so there's nothing to kill.  These are just runners built to resemble vintage racers.

 

"This sounds like it could possibly work if all items that could be used were determined to be in ample supply and were on a list."

 

This sounds like you are taking something simple and arbitrarily making it into something impossibly difficult.  My goal is to take something impossibly difficult and make it into something simple, so that more people can participate and enjoy.  One of us is going the wrong way.

 

"Sort of a much expanded version of my Kurtis Indy car proxy race."

 

If you say so... Except that Vintage-style cars are not intended to be racers.

 

"A "display class?"

 

It's not a "class" at all, it's a style.  There's nothing to categorize, classify, regulate, control, manipulate, determine or list.  Just accomplished hobbyists enjoying the part of the hobby that they happen to like best.  Not everyone is a racer.

"If it isn't some sort of competition, with more than one guy doing it, it shouldn't need an A, B, C proviso."

 

Well, what then should it need?  Do you know of another way to share an idea, without describing how it is supposed to work, or what its boundaries are?  And if some of the other respondents to this post are to be believed, there is quite a few more than one person doing this sort of thing already; something to give us a common purpose and goal is quite appropriate.

 

"Like I said, I didn't realize you need rules to build what you want to build."

 

I don't.  You are confusing rules with knowledge and discipline.  If I wanted to make it possible for a group of people to build cars that all have similar if not identical performance, so that they could be raced together, I would apply rules.  If I instead wanted to build one vintage-style car that looks and performs like an October 1968 Pro racer with a Bob Emott chassis, a Kean Kan motor and a Dave Bloom body, I would apply knowledge and discipline; rules would be of little use.

 

One more detail to consider; vintage pro cars clear up through 1969 had motors upon which there were no restrictions imposed.  My vintage-style builds will conform to this historical fact.  As a result, there will not be a sealed spec motor anywhere in sight.  Just like Retro?  I don't think so.


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#37 havlicek

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 06:49 AM

See...I didn't think this was about some newfangled racing class.  Then too, if guys that enjoyed building these things wanted to get together and run them fer giggles, that would be cool too.  Never having been a racer, I do recall many times when we were all running our cars and one guy would come up to you...follow along and then try and coax you into a sort of "impromptu race".  It was sort of the slot car equivalent of "running stoplights".  Of course, we would also just line up and someone would give us a "ready...set...go!", for a few laps of deslotting and wall-shots   :), so anybody anywhere *could* race something like these.

So the point is to build cars that have the look, engineering and where necessary, modern easily-available parts so the craft can be enjoyed without the extra cost and frustration.  Cool, I'm looking forward to seeing a whole raft of Sandy Gross "Puzzle Pan" chassis, in both long and short wheelbase versions!   :D

 

-john


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#38 havlicek

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:02 AM

I should also add that Phillipe's post #17 above is a perfect and concise statement about the major "phases" of vintage slot car development:
 

- Inline cars, 1963 through 1968, with motors being strictly Mabuchi-based, FT16 or FT26 models. Such motor parts are abundant as millions were sold in the day and thousands have survived, in new or used condition. 1/8 axles only, as 3/32 were a few years ahead. Wheelstires, gears are also abundant. Armatures to use Mabuchi-based or Hemi blanks, again, all over the place. Bodies to be of correct, pre-1968 styles, since the 1968 cars had not been modeled yet by vacuum forming manufacturers. Cox or similar guides as the Jet Flag had yet to exist.

- Anglewinders, 1968 through 1972, meaning cars with two solid axles. Motors:anything from modified Mabuchi FT16 to Champion 517 to 535 chrome or black cans, Champion C-can based, Mura "16D" and C-can motor parts, 1/8 or 3/32 axles, Jet Flag or similar, realistic bodies without built-in air control. Drop arms mandatory since no one was making chassis without one.

- Anglewinders, 1973 to 1978, pre-cobalt motors, meaning Champion or Mura C-can based, no perimeter frames, solid center sections with side pans, front axle optional, no wing-car bodies, semi-scale only.

 
I'm sure Philippe has long since forgotten way more about all this (*including rewinding) than I'll ever know, but I would argue one point:
 

Such motor parts are abundant as millions were sold in the day and thousands have survived, in new or used condition.

 
Finding clean used, much less new Mabuchi (or the black Tradeship ones) FT16D endbells for a decent price has become extremely difficult. You can luck out on eBay once in a while and get some junk motors with serviceable endbells that can be cleaned-up a little and repurposed, but even that's pretty rare. Even then, the endbell bushings are often worn and those are all-but-irreplaceable as a single item.  This too only underscores at least part of the reasoning behind a "vintage-style" build discipline, because modern D motors are still abundant and relatively inexpensive.  Then again, building a "VS" car as endbell-drive with a modern D motor will itself present some minor challenges to a scratchbuilder. However, I'm sure an "Independant Scratchbuilder"  ( :D ) wouldn't have much difficulty getting past that, just as the creative scratchbuilders worked out all sorts of solutions back in the day.
 
-john


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#39 Bill from NH

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:20 AM

It's "Run What You Brung" cars! I last ran these type of cars in 1967 and '68. :)


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#40 havlicek

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:29 AM

... as long as everyone "brings" similar cars!
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#41 Bill from NH

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:34 AM

Yes, they must be vintage. Similarity ends there.


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#42 havlicek

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:41 AM

Bingo! In say 1968, no one had to worry about someone bringing a #25 in a cobalt strap motor riding under wing body held up by a wire chassis with no front wheels.   :)
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#43 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 08:58 AM

Yes, bingo!

And that is why there is Retro racing.
 
like I said some ways back up the page, just for fun and old time sake build away with any style and parts you want. From time to time when I have time I will build along this line, too.
 
Enjoy.
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#44 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 10:09 AM

Post #36

Do what you want to do, but do it with knowledge and discipline.

IOW, "Have fun, but do it my way."


Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#45 Jairus

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 11:09 AM

It would be a real gas if Pro Slot were to issue a "Cukras" style custom-painted S16D motor huh?  :victory:

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#46 Mattb

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 01:35 PM

What is the purpose of this whole thread? Not a class, not a show, no rules, just build what you want, run what you want. Do it and be done with it. If it's not a class, not an organized race, what difference does it make what kind of car I put on another lane.

I still don't get the point of this thread.
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#47 Half Fast

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 01:55 PM

Amen.
 
Was there anyone stopping you from building whatever you wanted before?
 
Cheers.
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#48 don.siegel

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:06 PM

Guys, 

 

The point is to give us food for thought and a starting point for discussions - which is really the point of most forums. 

 

Don 



#49 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:12 PM

And we have been discussing. If we all saw it the same way what would we discuss?


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#50 MSwiss

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Posted 07 December 2016 - 02:20 PM

Food for thought for what?

What's the end game?

To quote Steve:

"It's not a "class" at all, it's a style. There's nothing to categorize, classify, regulate, control, manipulate, determine or list."

If it's not a class, what's the point of stating you have to use commercial parts?

IOW, there is nothing to regulate, but I'm going to regulate you by making you use commercial parts.

I'm really sorry, but this thread is just Steve posting a bunch of obtuse contradictions.
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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516






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