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PS4002 meltdown


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#51 Zippity

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 03:16 AM

Ran an even faster time tonight with my new C43 and 4002 motor :)

 

No push starts either...






#52 swodem

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 03:57 AM

What lap times?



#53 Zippity

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 04:52 AM

Why did I know that you would ask me that?  :)

 

Let's wait until the others have posted their times tomorrow night - then I will know if I have something to brag about or not :)



#54 Fast Freddie

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 08:09 PM

Maybe you guys didn't know this or maybe you did but whether or not a certain motor has a push start problem isn't solely due to the brushes overlapping a comm segment. 

 

There is another reason for the push start problem and that's where the arm stack settles within the magnetic field. When a motor stops and the arm settles in a certain position the comm may or may not have a segment touching both brushes.  Some motors, no matter how much the brushes are worn, will stop in such a manner that they will never have both brushes making contact with a single segment. 

 

Then there are motors that will nearly always stop in such a manner that even brushes not completely broken in will have a push start problem. When you consider the small dimensions we work with, something off by .003-.005" could make a difference. So could a 2-3 degree timing variation or magnets not directly parallel and square in the can. 

 

So while aligning the hardware is a great start the absolute best way to prevent a push start without losing performance is to cut one side of each brush and install the cut side as the trailing edge. There is no appreciable performance gain but there is a huge frustration removal gain.


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#55 Zippity

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 08:29 PM

... cut one side of each brush and install the cut side as the trailing edge. There is no appreciable performance gain but there is a huge frustration removal gain.

 

That statement is fine if your rules allow it - ours don't!



#56 swodem

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 08:44 PM

Assuming the above is correct, therefore it sounds to me like the issue also then would be resolved if the motor was timed differently - I.e. 10 or 20 degrees instead of 15 degrees?



#57 Samiam

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 09:00 PM

Noting that this motor is very similar to the 4002 that doesn't have the push start issue, what is it about the FK that may be causing this?

 

The wind is close. 60t of #31 vs 65t of #30. Same can. Same EB. The major difference is the poly neo magnets in the FK vs the ceramics in the 4002.

 

I'm guessing it has something to do with the way the magnets are made. As described by another blogger,they are made from a mix of materials. This mix is not always the same and it is not always consistent across the entire magnet. This would explain why some do it and some don't.

 

This is only my guess as I am no expert. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once. :D

 

Edit: The 4002 has a 20 deg nominal timing. The FK is 15.


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#58 swodem

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 09:03 PM

That statement is fine if your rules allow it - ours don't!


Let's not distract this thread with who can and can't do what because of localised rules. We are trying here to get to the detail of the problem... rules can be changed accordingly if required to resolve issues such as this, if the fix is effective.



#59 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 10:49 PM

Noting that this motor is very similar to the 4002 that doesn't have the push start issue, what is it about the FK that may be causing this?

 

The wind is close. 60t of #31 vs 65t of #30. Same can. Same EB. The major difference is the poly neo magnets in the FK vs the ceramics in the 4002.

 

I'm guessing it has something to do with the way the magnets are made. As described by another blogger,they are made from a mix of materials. This mix is not always the same and it is not always consistent across the entire magnet. This would explain why some do it and some don't.

 

This is only my guess as I am no expert. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.  :D

 

Edit: The 4002 has a 20 deg nominal timing. The FK is 15.

 

The comm is smaller around then the comm on the Puppy Dog and the brushes are the same size. When the brushes seat they overlap on the comm segments causing a short no-run situation.

 

Aligning the brush hoods does help, but is not a cure all. It is that simple.

 

There is a cure that does not involve altering the brushes, but I'am not telling anybody but the new owner of Pro Slot.

 

GVP 



#60 Samiam

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 10:52 PM

Greg,

 

I should have been more specific. I was referring to the 4002 with the Chinese arm. The PD is a 4002B or 4002BB.


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#61 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 08:26 AM

If you reduce the timing of the arm the problem disappears.
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#62 Fast Freddie

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 11:56 AM

Reducing the timing and even increasing the timing could cure the problem but it all comes down to where the arm stops in relation to the comm. 

 

I had this problem with C-can Contender arms from two different manufacturers. The arms were both 45 degree and both .540" diameter with a .560" hole, Camen magnets, and Red Fox can. One arm was a PS and one was a BOW. 

 

When installed in the same set up the PS arm experienced push start problems while the BOW didn't. The reason for that was the arm web on the BOW was narrower then the PS arm so when the arm stopped rotating on the BOW arm it never settled with the brushes contacting a single comm segment.

 

While it happened nearly every time the PS motor stopped. Even with the brushes and springs removed I could never force the BOW arm to stop in such a manner that the web of the arm would be between the north and south magnet tips. 

 

This happened almost all the time with the PS arm. When that happened the brushes contacted a single comm segment.  I cured the problem by first filing both sides of each brush but realized I was reducing the timing so I went to just one side of each brush and installed that side as the trailing edge and it cured the problem. 

 

You may also like to know that doing this on Mini 12s helps reduce the heat in the motor by reducing the brush overlap. I have two Mini 12s that have the 38 degree PS arm and at first they would overheat badly but when I cut the brushes the heat went down dramatically. This is an added benefit of reducing brush overlap in any motor. 


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#63 swodem

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 12:42 PM

... it never settled with the brushes contacting a single comm segment...

... When that happened the brushes contacted a single comm segment...


FF, for clarity this means "both brushes contacting the same comm segment at the same time" - i.e. a short circuit, as indicated by the second image on my post #38 of this thread - correct?


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#64 Fast Freddie

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 08:06 PM

Correct Steve, with the PS arm both brushes made contact with the same comm segment almost all the time while the BOW arm never did.  I knew some racers who ran the same can and arm but they ran different magnets and they didn't have a problem.  So I came to the conclusion that the distance between the north and south magnet tips also affect the push start, particularly with the PS arms.  If that distance is changed maybe the web of the arm won't settle between the magnet tips.  Thing is I never tested that theory as I nearly stopped flat track racing.  Maybe I'll put a couple setups together this year and test the theory.


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#65 Bazzie

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 03:45 AM

I use my own PWM controller, and those are more sensitive to shorts on motors. This is due to the fact that PWM gives full power but just intermittently. With an analogue controller you're running reasonably high resistance until you hit full throttle. I therefore have to be doubly careful as behind a car battery and some serious wiring, I can send hundreds more amps through my controller than the transistors can handle, even if just for 40% dutycycle. That's enough to blow the controller if you're not careful. So if the car doesn't move, I come off throttle and fix the problem before continuing. I suffer under the same rules as Zip, so I reset my brushes to factory condition. They get shipped with flat tips, it's only when they are fully run in that the tips are not flat anymore and you get shorting across the comm. I used to run only one 4002fk car in all classes and was changing to a new motor every month. Now that I reset the brushes, I've been running the same motors in my F1 and LMP cars for the last 6 months.
We need to fix our ridiculous rules. There is now way I can improve motor performance by trimming brushes, I only give the motor and my controller longer life!
I do have another theory. I use a current sensor in my controller to detect shorts and then remove power. It is basically an extremely fast electronic fuse. I have seen on starting up a G12 occassionally it would trip the fuse, which it shouldn't do, as the fuse is set to 45A. Also, once the motor has run up a bit after that first trip, it would be fine. Dirt in between comm segments, I suspect. Now compare a 4002 to the g12. Tiny comm, lower RPM and less time that the gaps between segments are not covered by a brush. To me it also looks like the gaps on 4002s are slightly narrower, I could be wrong. I hence suspect it is more difficult for dirt to get flung out of the gaps, so you could get more build-up and hence shorts


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#66 Guillermo Suar

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 09:40 AM

PS: Find a "push-start" 4002FK. Install a ceramic mag can on it. I guarantee the "problem" will go away.

 

Hope this will add some light. I did not do what Mike says but the opposite.

 

I put a PS4002 (ceramic mags) arm inside a PS4002 FK (neo mags). Motor with ceramic mags did no have any issue. The one assembled with neo magnets had the push-start problem.

 

Same arm and endbell on both. I just transferred the cans.

 

After cutting the brushes per Mike post (somewhere in the blog) the problem went away.


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#67 Fast Freddie

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 09:42 AM

There is no reason to have a push start problem if a solution is given.  While cutting the brush .010 or less does solve the problem in all cases I understand that some local rules don't allow it and you got to ask yourself, WHY?  If the reason is that not all racers have the technical experience to cut the brushes then I'm sure there are other racers who would help them.  If the reasoning is that it strays away from the motor remaining totally stock then so does changing brushes and springs.  If a motor has an inherent problem that can be fixed without vastly modifying the motor shouldn't the rules be changed to accommodate the fix?  Cutting the brushes will reduce racer frustration and improve the racing environment while also saving money on destroyed parts.  The negligible performance improvement, if there actually is one, is no reason to allow the cut brushes.     


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#68 Jason Holmes

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 02:53 PM

My 2 cents love these little motors have only ran the in Can-am Plus and can't now  :(  and Grp F so the cars have always been under 90 grams at all the races I've been in I have yet to see any pop or burn I don't trim the brushes just fix the hoods and change out the stock brushes and run them all the tracks that I've ran on have big amps have ran them at 14.1 V down to 13.3 at BPR with over 2500 Amps not a problem   I think it has to do with weight of car and big amps on track This all falls back on a cheap motor which is nice and your choice on what to run If you don't want problems build the motor for more $$ then if not live with it remember there your Dice roll them as you wish

 

Jason


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#69 swodem

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 05:11 PM

....Dirt in between comm segments, I suspect. Now compare a 4002 to the g12. Tiny comm, lower RPM and less time that the gaps between segments are not covered by a brush. To me it also looks like the gaps on 4002s are slightly narrower, I could be wrong. I hence suspect it is more difficult for dirt to get flung out of the gaps, so you could get more build-up and hence shorts


I don't think that's it mate
Here are two pics from two different melted motors from your track

One has a dirty comm
The other a very clean one
They both melted down the endbells
You'll note they even come from very different batches of 4002 as the comm is quite different.

cab24e2b27a1ec306a5c9a0addc05f1b.jpg

fd189fd0914eb62ce33a38fb1a83f720.jpg

I'm still not convinced it's solely a comm/brush overlap issue.



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#70 MSwiss

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 05:23 PM

 

 

After cutting the brushes per Mike post (somewhere in the blog) the problem went away.

 

 

I'm still not convinced it's solely a comm/brush overlap issue.

You may not be convinced, but the above quoted post disputes that.


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#71 swodem

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 05:27 PM

Yep that's why I posted this.
I had a motor start a race on Sunday fine. It was a long race. For some period it became a push start, for maybe an hour or so, then went away and was OK.
No brushgear was touched.

I have also seen BRAND NEW motors not run in behave in a pushstart manner. They technically can't bridge a com segment.

Explain if you can....


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#72 Frankie Schaffier

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:04 PM

Slot car racing is different than all the other types of racing I’ve done over the years. Issues just seem to continue to banter back and forth even when a solution has been given that works, seems like someone is always trying to prove someone wrong.

In this case I’ve only seen one solution suggested that don’t require breaking the seal and low and behold it works. Exactly as has Mike and many others have posted. If you have a motor that needs a push, trim the brushes and the problem is gone. If you don’t want to risk smoking a “good one”, then trim the brushes from the start and you’ll never have the push start motor smoking problem.

I do agree the rules should allow the brushes to be trimmed, your allowed to use different brushes, cut them on the turtle to shorten them, sand them if you wish, etc etc.. I cut them anyway. Go ahead and DQ me from a $10 slot car race for cut brushes. It's cheaper then a smoked $15 motor with replacement brushes and springs. :)
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#73 MSwiss

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:04 PM

Steve,
On the latter, they may of not had perfectly aligned or formed hoods.

Also, did you examine the brushes in these motors, immediately before the race, to confirm they still had flat spots on the brush face?

At the time of the first pushstart, was the race stopped, and it was confirmed that the brushes still had flat spots?

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#74 swodem

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:17 PM

Mike,
On point 1, I accept that is a likely scenario
Point 2, no. The new unused motor wasn't mine
Point 3, ahhh mate it was a race. 6hr Enduro. No-one stops a race because a car has a problem...


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#75 MSwiss

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:35 PM

If you have a motor that needs a push, trim the brushes and the problem is gone. If you don’t want to risk smoking a “good one”, then trim the brushes from the start and you’ll never have the push start motor smoking problem.

 

 

Mike,
On point 1, I accept that is a likely scenario
Point 2, no. The new unused motor wasn't mine
Point 3, ahhh mate it was a race. 6hr Enduro. No-one stops a race because a car has a problem...

Of course on 2 and 3.

 

The point is you made your statement  "They technically can't bridge a com segment." without any real knowledge the brushes had flats, other then they might of, because it was early in the race.

 

And in the top quote, another racer chimed in his pushstart issue was cured with shorter height brushes.


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#76 swodem

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:40 PM

Mike
You obviously have a desire to chop me down

My point on non-run-in brushes not technically able to bridge the gap relates to my research previously posted

05b7975a7d56a8bd276f32e1fba06179.jpg


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#77 MSwiss

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:44 PM

Mike
You obviously have a desire to chop me down

My point on in-run-in brushes not technically able to bridge the gap relates to my research previously posted

No desire to chop you down.

 

Just 99.9% sure what the sole issue is.

 

What are "in-run-in brushes"?

 

If you mean "not-run-in" brushes, my point is how do you know the brushes in the motors you cite, were not broken in, if you didn't see them?


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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#78 Bazzie

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:48 PM

I think the new motors with the vertical brushes are the answer. We should not have the overlapping problem anymore, which is definitely the biggest cause of escaping smoke...

On the dirt one, I think it may occasionally be an issue but much less so than the overlapping brushes. Not discounting it totally


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#79 swodem

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 06:48 PM

Sorry, typo - non-run-in, I will edit my original post

On whether the brushes had been run in, I was told by the driver he had done nothing to it, in fact he never does, so unless he is a compulsive liar, or Dan Da Bella decided to do him a favor and personally run in his motors before sending them out, that's how I know.

I guess under cross examination I would have to concede that there was a chance someone could have crept in and secretly inserted worn in brushes.

If you cite the sample-of-one that one guy posted he had a pushstart that was fixed by rubbing the brushes back to having flat tips, you must also accept that doing nothing eventually fixes them too cos that's what happened to my motor

So....which is it?

Our mates in Wellington are doing exactly that (rubbing their brushes back) and I still hear they have the problem and three of their burned out motors are heading my way for investigation...

Just sayin'

cc0eaa8b9fecc0897c605fc9876e7e81.jpg




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#80 havlicek

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:29 PM

I guess this must be just the way the picture looks, and quite possibly besides the point, but dang the motor shaft sure looks way-the-heck off center in relation to the bushing.  Of course, some sort of brush problem could lead to overheating and melting even, but I can't imagine how any kind of heat (short of a welding torch) could possibly account for what sure looks like the shaft having moved way to the right in the photo above.  Like I said, probably just the way the picture came out or something.


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#81 swodem

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:42 PM

It's a long endbell shaft on these motors John and obviously the camera wasn't perfectly aligned looking down on it
With the shallow depth of field in closeup photography (worst view is through the lens before the aperture actually closes down for the shot on an SLR) much if that shaft would just be too out of focus to even see. My ring light is quite bright so I end up photographing using smallest aperture = greatest depth of field.


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#82 MSwiss

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 08:50 PM

1-On whether the brushes had been run in, I was told by the driver he had done nothing to it, in fact he never does,

2-If you cite the sample-of-one that one guy posted he had a pushstart that was fixed by rubbing the brushes back to having flat tips, you must also accept that doing nothing eventually fixes them too cos that's what happened to my motor

So....which is it?

3-Our mates in Wellington are doing exactly that (rubbing their brushes back) and I still hear they have the problem and three of their burned out motors are heading my way for investiga
 

1-How long does it take for the brushes to lose their flat spots, when running under load, on the track?

 

2-Way more examples of problems being fixed with cut brushes, or never happening, when run from the get-go, than motors like yours- "fixing itself" :wacko2:

 

3-Are they still having push start issues, or just having their endbells melt, as shown?

 

Motors with cut brushes should run more efficiently, but I've never said it will prevent all overheating issues, especially if the motor is geared aggressively.

 

Also, with the stock hoods, you can only cut / "rub" your brushes back so far back.

 

If you don't monitor them regularly, and replace as needed, at some point, they will be full face again.


Mike Swiss
 
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#83 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 10:47 PM

Steve,

What size pinion and pitch are you guys using? What's your tracks voltage?

Dave
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#84 Zippity

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 11:12 PM

Mike,

 

Steve is talking about two different racers.

 

Dave, normally 12:37 at 12.4 volts

 

PS Not everyone is removing material from their brushes - I am only aware of one racer doing so here in Wellington :(



#85 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 11:26 PM

Hi Steve. I have no idea of why these motors do it as it was the first time I have ever used one last Sunday at Stu's. but the one thing I did notice was this. When Steve swapped over motors before the race started the new motor sometimes needed a pust start. When someone went to push start it, sometimes when they got a hand got close to it the car would go by itself without them touching it. I got Steve to resolder the motor as there was no play between the spur and the pinion. Once he had done that the motor went fine for 6 hours no no push start problems. . 


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#86 swodem

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:28 AM

1-How long does it take for the brushes to lose their flat spots, when running under load, on the track?

 

2-Way more examples of problems being fixed with cut brushes, or never happening, when run from the get-go, than motors like yours- "fixing itself" :wacko2:

 

3-Are they still having push start issues, or just having their endbells melt, as shown?

 

Motors with cut brushes should run more efficiently, but I've never said it will prevent all overheating issues, especially if the motor is geared aggressively.

 

Also, with the stock hoods, you can only cut / "rub" your brushes back so far back.

 

If you don't monitor them regularly, and replace as needed, at some point, they will be full face again.

 

1. Probably at least an hours track time, the standard brushes will last 6hr continuous running once profiled...

2. Good for them!! If this was so simple, then all motors with fully bedded in brush would do this. Forever. Until remedied.

3. Push-start is the symptom, endbell meltdown is dependent on holding the gas on hard while its in this state. The time this takes depends on available amps.  Really high current tracks might take just a second or two...



#87 swodem

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:40 AM

Steve,

What size pinion and pitch are you guys using? What's your tracks voltage?

Dave

 

Dave

 

It depends on the size and style of the track. Short and twisty get lower gearing, longer, more flowing get taller. 

So somewhere between 11:37 and 12:35, typically tyre diameter close to 16.5mm

 

Its not too tall for the motors, have run these ratio's for last couple of years. 



#88 gfox

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:43 AM

What's Bazzie talking about?

"the new motor with the vertical brushes"


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#89 Zippity

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:42 AM

What's Bazzie talking about?

"the new motor with the vertical brushes"

 

Something he read that MSwiss had posted elsewhere :)



#90 MSwiss

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 08:52 AM

I never said a new motor was coming out.

Just some experimentation was being conducted with vertical brushes.
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#91 Samiam

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 09:18 AM

Flattening the brush face back to new or un radiused condition is the only option if the rules prohibit altering/cutting the brush.


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#92 Fast Freddie

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 10:07 AM

Sorry guys but Mike Swiss pointed out a mistake I made in post #67.  The last line should have read ", is no reason not to allow the cut brushes.".  My bad, sorry if there was any confusion. 


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#93 Fast Freddie

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 10:41 AM

One more thing.  What some people call magnet "thump" I call "cog steps".  It's the amount of times you feel a "thump" for one revolution of the motor.  This varies in different motors even motors of the same brand and type.  Some motors have 6 steps some 8 some 10.  This may be a way of telling if a motor is going to have a push start problem or not, by associating motors that have a push start problem with the step number.   There is another way though.  Remove the brushes and springs and free spin the motor by hand.  Do this 8-10 times and each time check where the arm stops in relation to the comm. and brush hoods.  If at any time the arm stops in such a manner that you can see the comm. slots of one segment of the comm. close to or aligned with both brush hoods there is a good chance that motor will develop a push start once the brushes have completely broken in.  It's just a theory but it hasn't failed me yet.

 

Some of you guys that have been melting endbells may have a loose bushing problem.  Glue the bushing in before you oil the motor for the first time.  I use a brand new tube of super glue because it's thinnest when new.  I have also used new Gorilla super glue but it's a little thicker.  Most of the arms in this thread look to be riding high in the endbell, most usually ride low in the can, this can cause excess heat in the bushing if it's not lubed well.  I found that oiling that little white arm washer on both ends of the arm with synthetic oil helps.  In many cases that washer is directly on the bushing.


Fred Younkin

#94 swodem

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 02:21 AM

Hmmm not easy spinning and viewing


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#95 Bazzie

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 04:05 AM

Believe me, I know of at least 3
 
PS Not everyone is removing material from their brushes - I am only aware of one racer doing so here in Wellington :([/quote]


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#96 Fast Freddie

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 09:38 AM

Eben, if you don't have a push start problem with a particular motor it isn't necessary to side cut the brushes for that motor.  It only cures the push start problem on motors that have the problem.  So in lieu of scrapping a motor with push start problems side cutting the brushes allows you to use the motor as it was intended.  It's a cost effective move in the racers favor so why would anyone not approve of it?

 

Steve, your right but it can be done and could save you hours of frustration.  You can spin the motor easier with a gear soldered on the arm or use one of those knurled knobs like what comes on those mini wire brushes used for cleaning out bushing bores, that's what I use.


Fred Younkin

#97 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 09:51 AM

I'm surprised no one questioned the 11 or 12 tooth pinion usage on flat tracks
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#98 Fast Freddie

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 11:12 AM

My guess would be is they are trying to reduce the effect of the neo magnets.  It could eliminate, or drastically reduce, the use of braking through the controller.  I use very little brakes when using this motor even on a Gerding King.  The magnets provide a lot of brakes until they get warm then you may need to add some in. 


Fred Younkin

#99 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 11:45 AM

You can reduce the braking effect of a motor in more than one way.
Thomas Jefferson: "Paper is poverty. It is only the ghost of money, and not money itself."
-David Parrotta

#100 Bazzie

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 01:28 PM

Freddie, you're right, the problem is that fuses are too slow to catch the 300A that flows so I've seen very expensive controllers blow. Last yr 3 weeks before the nats I put new motors in my lmp and f1 in order to ensure everything is legal. Aligned brush hoods, tightened the hoods so as to get minimal cocking. On the Friday before the nats in free practice, the lmp motor stalls. I complain to the guy I bought it from and he tells me how to reset the brushes to factory condition.

So Ron, by definition, the meaning of 'cheater' is a person who behaves dishonestly in order to gain an advantage. So tell me what advantage am I gaining by going back to factory condition? This year for the nats I'll practice with trimmed brushes and the fit slightly run-in new brushes just before inspection. Cannot be against the rules. Better yet, I'll talk to you about a remit. People have done remits to allow filing of chassis, which at first was actual dishonesty as it could actually give an advantage. So the rules were changed to allow it. This is a silly rule that costs people money and frustrates a lot of people and it does not do anything to level the playing field. It should be a simple process. We're wasting a lot of time that could be better spent to just fix the problem at the root.


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