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PS4002 meltdown


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#26 MSwiss

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:36 PM

You just don't get it.

My flat track has never "killed" a 4002FK. The car just doesn't go.

On 28 amps/12v, the other cars are affected.

On 200 amps/13.1v, they aren't.

But on the heavy-wired King, they either, pop( sometimes with a tiny bit of smoke) and still run fine, they pop and run at about 80%, or the least common, they melt the endbell, like you showed, and IIRC, always on the back side.


Mike Swiss
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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#27 swodem

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:41 PM

Pop?



#28 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:11 AM

The noise from an electrical failure.

And your comment,"Yes, the motor could be OK-fast..."

You made that statement based on what? Experience with running an eliptical comm before?

You wonder why I've been less than polite in this exchange? You're making outrageous statements, with zero data to back them up.


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#29 Zippity

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:14 AM

"the backside"?

 

Nearest the axle? North or South magnet?

 

(We wire our tracks with positive on the left hand braid in the direction of travel.)

 

:)


Ron Thornton
 

 


#30 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:33 AM

Towards the back of the car, like in the picture in post #1.

What I see as the positive on a stock 4002 FK.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#31 swodem

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:40 AM

The noise from an electrical failure.

And your comment,"Yes, the motor could be OK-fast..."

You made that statement based on what? Experience with running an eliptical comm before?

You wonder why I've been less than polite in this exchange? You're making outrageous statements, with zero data to back them up.

 

Mike, if you don't want to be polite don't participate in my thread. I haven't been rude to you.

 

Any comm that needs truing is by nature elliptical.

 

Have I had motors with a blown stack? Yes, they didn't run too bad, in fact I have considered running these in an FK F1 flat track car to stop the chattering axle bounce.

 

The theoretical motor as I described that may have a low point on the leading edge of a comm segment simply has a pole that's more retarded. Nothing stopping it being fast. It's possible the early stages of this exhibit push starting, and as the comm arcing in the course of running continues could create a build-up that eventually bridges two segments, causing the melting short? Who knows? I don't, thats why I have raised it and thats what I am trying to uncover.

 

I haven't made (m)any statements, only suggestions.



#32 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:03 AM

"That's not getting brush contact on one comm segment when it should - hence no short."

I clearly debunked that in post #21.

Dozens of times, on the low amp supply, a motor didn't start, and each time it affected the power on the other lanes.

IOW, opposite your theory, the brush is making contact.

If you can't figure out by my experiences running a raceway for 12 years, and using every version of a cheap Chinese motor for at least some length of time, that I'm certain the common denominator, is the heavy cogging neo magnets, accentuated by the small comm and tall brushes, there is nothing more I can add to this.

PS: Find a "push-start" 4002FK. Install a ceramic mag can on it. I guarantee the "problem" will go away.


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#33 swodem

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:15 AM

I might also 'introduce' terribly awry brush hoods, and see if this makes for a push-start.

Have you tried the ceramic magnet thing? I went to install F7 magnets in one once but they're thicker and needed honing...



#34 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:25 AM

No, on the ceramic mag thing, but before the Hawk 6 and Proslot 4002FK, the only motors I've ever seen that need a push start are ones with a dead pole, or possibly ones with out of spec timing (50 degrees +).


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#35 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:30 AM

I might also 'introduce' terribly awry brush hoods, and see if this makes for a push-start.

 

Now you are thinking clearly.

With some of the dissected, failed motors, guys have commented, despite aligning the hoods, how out of whack the curvature of the brush face is.

Good night.


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#36 swodem

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:19 AM

Well, I can understand that, I have seen it too, as the hoods typically are not snug fitting and the arm is pulling the brush face along with it as it rotates. Many of my old brushes are longer on one edge, until I started blueprinting the hoods.

Proving I can't leave a bone alone, I have no life, and four hands, I set about understanding exactly what is going on at the comm face

Attached images speak volumes - no short-circuit with new, well aligned brushes due to the cut off extreme edge.

But... no way getting around a short-circuit with 'run-in' ones though....

New unused:

ab97bea80260396cdc3795c3d4190f18.jpg


Well used

7326da14bbf6832d0a270b13ee7dbd42.jpg


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#37 Zippity

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:10 AM

Great photographs, Steve.


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#38 NSwanberg

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:19 AM

I think you may have the brush on the right reversed in the well used photo. The trailing edge of both brushes usually gets pulled around the commutator.


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#39 swodem

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 04:13 AM

NSwanberg, the brushes are not off that motor.
 
Indicative only, but makes the point, aye?
 
Neither set-up pics were perfect.

#40 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:37 AM

That comm is clearly an indicator of a curmudgeon. If I've never seen one before, and trust I haven't, that example is of one.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

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#41 Pablo

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:09 AM

Swodem may find my post #82 HERE of interest.
 
I'm no electrician, but I do know it does funny things sometimes.
 
electric shock2.jpg
 
The solution to the problem came to me at 2 in the morning:

- A clove of garlic tied to your controller handle with catgut.
- A sprig of parsley wrapped around the positive lead wire.

No more push-starts. :crazy:
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#42 Richard G With

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:57 PM

I think Steve's picture tells the story, for what I've experienced anyway.

 

I recently pulled a car out of storage and hooked it up to a power supply to check it.

Initially, it wouldn't start at 5 volts and I observed black gummy deposits on the comm. Shot it with WD40 (not suggesting that as a tip, it was handy). Motor began working normally.

 

My conclusion in this case is that I'm over-oiling the comm bushing. Had similar problems with a car that I sent to Dallas. It never stopped, just ran slow.


We must all do what we must do, for if we do not, then what we must do does not get done.  Chung Mee

      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#43 swodem

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:51 PM

I wouldn't put WD40 on the comm...



#44 MSwiss

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:09 PM

My conclusion in this case is that I'm over-oiling the comm bushing. Had similar problems with a car that I sent to Dallas. It never stopped, just ran slow.

 

When a motor is new, after oiling the pinion end, without resqueezing the bottle, I touch the end of the needle to the comm side, and let capillary action draw the tiny bit on the outside surface of the needle, to that junction of the shaft and bushing.

I might repeat, once a race, tops.


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#45 Richard G With

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:56 PM

I wouldn't put WD40 on the comm...

 

WD40 is the fallback when duct tape won't do the job. IMHO.


We must all do what we must do, for if we do not, then what we must do does not get done.  Chung Mee

      Parkes, W. (Producer) & Meyer, N. (Director). (1985). Volunteers.[Motion picture]. United States: HBO.

 


#46 Zippity

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:08 AM

Can't remember when I last put duct tape on my comm.   :dash2: :dash2:



#47 swodem

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 12:17 AM

Zip, when was the last time you even saw your armature? Hahahahaha.



#48 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 01:11 AM

I knew Zip was a curmudgeon.


Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. - Ronald Regan #40 (1911 - 2004)

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#49 Zippity

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 03:16 AM

Ran an even faster time tonight with my new C43 and 4002 motor :)

 

No push starts either...


Ron Thornton
 

 


#50 swodem

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 03:57 AM

What lap times?







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