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PS4002 meltdown


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#101 Bazzie

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 04:20 PM

Guys, I apologise, I'm making a retraction, by making a more accurate statement:

One person at our club, one week had a stalling motor for one week. He asked me to trim the brushes (implying other people at the club are aware of me altering the brushes). I helped him. I don't know if he's still running the same motor. The other is the one who showed me how to do this - I guess that doesn't really prove that he's actually doing it himself. So make it 1, me...


Eben Brand





#102 Bazzie

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 04:21 PM

Cheater? I think not - I'm being open and honest about it, for me it's either I trim the brushes on these motors or leave the hobby. I cannot afford regular replacement of motors. Also the intent behind cheating is to gain advantage. This is clearly not what I'm doing, as there is no performance advantage to be gained. Google 'cheater'... I'm merely enjoying the hobby and would like to keep doing so.


Eben Brand


#103 swodem

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:29 PM

Bazzie, you're off track.
But I have to just pull you up on something
If you go outside the rules, for whatever reason, it's deemed cheating
Whether you are doing so for the purposes of reliability rather than speed, matters not.
Stay within the rules.
Not all motors are push-starts, so your comment about regular replacement isnt valid.
If you want to run with new brushes, just replace the brushes.
But don't take on the position that you can do something the rules say you can't because YOU deem it not to be a performance advantage. It's simply not manageable to have everyone operating in this manner.


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#104 MSwiss

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:38 PM

So you can replace the brushes, turtle them to length with various diameter brush radius tools, etc.

 

But only "factory flats" are allowed? :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
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#105 Samiam

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:41 PM

Can one of you post the rule as it pertains to brushes? Or a link to your rules?

 

I have been removing the tips of worn in brushes for decades. Most recently on PS Chinese arm motors. I have never been accused of cheating. 


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
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#106 MSwiss

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:51 PM

Unless the rules specifically says something like "factory profile only allowed on new brushes", or "tips may not be reflatted on racer radiused brushes", I think Steve is making up his own rules.


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#107 Half Fast

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:22 PM

I don't understand why the bloody rules :wacko2: couldn't be changed to allow the easy and inexpensive solution to an obvious problem :o

Rules are not sacred when they cause a problem. Especially at a club level.

 

Cheers


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#108 swodem

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:38 PM

Unless the rules specifically says something like "factory profile only allowed on new brushes", or "tips may not be reflatted on racer radiused brushes", I think Steve is making up his own rules.


Swiss, Here you go again, you're nearly as bad as Zippity. See post 11 onwards, you've already commented on it. I'm not making up any rules, our governing body does that.
And I don't agree with them on this matter either
My only point was racers can't 'break' rules under the guise that's what they are doing is not a performance enhancement. It's not up to them to judge which to follow and why.
If the rules say all cars must be green, then they must be green, regardless of whether it's a performance enhancement making them another colour or not


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#109 Samiam

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:54 PM

Steve,

What is the exact wording of the rule on brushes?


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
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#110 MSwiss

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:58 PM

If post #11 is correct, brushes "cannot be timed, drilled, friction cut, or fitted with shunts"


Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
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Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#111 Samiam

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:21 PM

If it doesn't say you can't do it , it isn't illegal.

 

If someone wants to interpret flatting the brush as one of  the disallowed actions, well they should solicit the ruling body to include " flatting of brush tips" in the list of prohibited brush modifications. But until then it is not specifically stated as  illegal . 

 

Bill,

Did I miss my calling? :crazy:


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
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#112 Zippity

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:26 PM

Here are the New Zealand PS4002FK motor rules as they currently stand:

 

4002motor rules.JPG



#113 Samiam

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:30 PM

I rest my case.  :thank_you2: 


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#114 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 09:45 PM

I don't use these motors but these above rules make me laugh. You can't change the brushes, hoods etc to stop the push start problems, but it is ok to true up the comm without breaking the seal and that makes a big difference to performance.. No one pulls down a motor so you could trim up the bushes and no one would know. 



#115 Zippity

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 10:17 PM

Trevor, read the rules again - particularly Rule 1.5 - "Brushes & springs may be changed"



#116 swodem

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 10:59 PM

I don't use these motors but these above rules make me laugh. You can't change the brushes, hoods etc to stop the push start problems, but it is ok to true up the comm without breaking the seal and that makes a big difference to performance.. No one pulls down a motor so you could trim up the bushes and no one would know. 


It doesn't say you can true the comm so technically that's in the same boat mate.



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#117 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 12:16 AM

Trevor, read the rules again - particularly Rule 1.5 - "Brushes & springs may be changed"

My bad . I was refering to trimming the bushes to stop the push start problems not changing them. 



#118 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 12:18 AM

It doesn't say you can true the comm so technically that's in the same boat mate.



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It doesn't say that you can't either. Even if it did, how would you enforce it anyway as it would be impossible to tell.



#119 swodem

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:01 AM

And that is the problem with rules mate

 

It does say 'if its not mentioned above you cant do it'....And it doesn't mention Comm truing

But it does specifically say you can't cut or modify brushes. Why? Ask the rule writers.

 

You could argue that, in essence, removing the seal tape and bending the retaining lugs back isn't a performance enhancement either.

 

..it's what comes next..



#120 Fast Freddie

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 03:41 PM

Cutting the brushes to eliminate a push start situation would seem to be a no brainer for the rules guys.  Technically a friction cut involves both sides or the top and bottom or all 4 sides of the brush to help reduce friction.  A single side cut this small would provide a negligible friction reduction and no timing change since the timing is determined by the leading edge not the following edge of the brush.  This cut would reduce brush overlap which creates heat in the motor.  What you guys need to do is push for a rules change.  It may never happen and I for one know just how hard it is for certain people to see the light but if you persist you may be successful, like I was. 


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#121 Zippity

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 03:46 PM

thumb.jpg



#122 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:22 PM

I just had a look at a old email and it had the below attached. . Surely if the problem was known way back then, why wasn't trimming the brushes added to the list when you had a vote on the rule changes. Do you only have a vote once a year?. 

 

Remits left over from 2016 AGM                                                        Vote?
   1 Open LMP class to any stamped chassis                                        yes or no?
2 Open LMP to any internationally available LMP body                        yes or no?
 
3 Retain the 4002 as production motor or change to sealed Hawk 7    4002 or Hawk?
 
4 If 4002 retained, allow Proslot endbell hardware                                yes or no?
 
5 If 4002 retained, allow fully free endbell hardware                              yes or no?
 


#123 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:30 PM

Cutting the brushes to eliminate a push start situation would seem to be a no brainer for the rules guys.  Technically a friction cut involves both sides or the top and bottom or all 4 sides of the brush to help reduce friction.  A single side cut this small would provide a negligible friction reduction and no timing change since the timing is determined by the leading edge not the following edge of the brush.  This cut would reduce brush overlap which creates heat in the motor.  What you guys need to do is push for a rules change.  It may never happen and I for one know just how hard it is for certain people to see the light but if you persist you may be successful, like I was. 

That would be too logical. BTW . If you trimmed the leading edged of each brush would that increase or decrease the timming. 



#124 Zippity

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:40 PM

"Rules are written by FEAR; and that Racers are motivated by the Fear that somebody may have something that gives others an Edge." - Rocky Russo



#125 MSwiss

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:48 PM

That would be too logical. BTW . If you trimmed the leading edged of each brush would that increase or decrease the timming. 

More confusion on what increases or decreases timing.

 

Once again, from slot racing's foremost motor expert, Stuart Koford;

 

To change the motor timing you would need to rotate the brush hoods relative to the magnets.

Some racers have the misunderstanding that the point when the edge of the brush touches the edge of the segment is when the coil "turns on" so a change of brush dimension changes timing. Actually there is always current flowing in all three coils and so they are always "on". A wider brush or a smaller comm just effect the amount of time that the brush shorts the comm segments.

Regards,
Stuart


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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

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#126 SpeedyNH

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:07 PM

well, there are Some rules that one has to have in the spec classes, because otherwise clever people will do some tricky things which make their cars a lot faster.  cutting the brushes to increase the timing, etc. would be one example- if one allows that, now Everyone has to do it to be competitive.

for the problem of the overlap thing causing non-starting in some motors, if putting brand-new legal flat brushes makes the motor work again, why not just do that? (or try another motor.) has anyone played with different springs/ tension to see if that has any effect?

 

as an aside, does anyone examine the top three in post-race tech to make sure? you wouldn't Believe some of the unallowed things I found back when I ran a series (you probably have as well), and we didn't have very many rules. (spec arm, bearings and magnets, otherwise do whatever you want with the chassis. we had a lot of fun.)

speedy


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#127 Zippity

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:10 PM

Assuming that the brush hoods are not moved, there is no way that you can advance a motors timing if you remove part of both brushes - you can only retard it.

 

Am I correct with this statement?



#128 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:30 PM

Mike,

Your taking Stu's words too literally.

If you trim the trailing edge and leave the leading edge in place you increase the median timing, the firing point stays the same.

If you trim both edges equally the median timing stays the same and the firing point gets retarded.

When the leading edge is trimmed and the trailing edge is left in place you decrease the median timing and the firing point.
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#129 MSwiss

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:54 PM

 the median timing

A new term.

 

Maybe when you supplant Stuart as slot car's #1 motor authority, you can "officially" add it to the slot car car lexicon.

 

When the Hawk 6 came out , 5 or 6 years ago, I did extensive testing with cut down brushes.

 

Despite only being approx. .070" tall, brushes with both sides trimmed back, performed as well as ones with just the trailing edge trimmed.

 

IOW, the motor, with your so-called increased "median timing", was not any faster.


Mike Swiss
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Chicagoland Raceway
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#130 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 09:39 PM

Mike,

Your taking Stu's words too literally.

If you trim the trailing edge and leave the leading edge in place you increase the median timing, the firing point stays the same.

If you trim both edges equally the median timing stays the same and the firing point gets retarded.

When the leading edge is trimmed and the trailing edge is left in place you decrease the median timing and the firing point.

so, in theory what effect would would these 3 different cut bushes have on a motor. 



#131 Samiam

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 10:21 PM

"Rules are written by FEAR; and that Racers are motivated by the Fear that somebody may have something that gives others an Edge." - Rocky Russo

This may be true but is only relevant if what Racers fear is unavailable to all or only available at great cost. Here, the "Fix" is both available and of little if any cost. It also gives no "Edge' other than not melting motors and controllers. Racers shouldn't have to fear that their motor or very expensive controller may inexplicably go up in smoke.

 

These are spec sealed motors that really can't be cherry picked. Forcing racers to buy more motors looking for ones that work is counter productive and accomplishes the opposite of what rules were supposed to do.

 

"Only thing we have to fear... is fear itself" - Franklin D Roosevelt


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Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#132 swodem

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 10:29 PM

I'm still unconvinced we are on the right track.

 

If the issue was purely the short, then

 

1. No PS4002FK would be a push start until the brushes had worn down

2. All the PS4002FK motors would ALL do this when the brushes were worn down

3. push start motors would be push start ALL THE TIME not just occasionally

 

But the above are simply not foolproof rules

 

There must be another variable and I think it is the comm not being true

 

I really want to hear from someone that knows what they're talking about, not people that are repeating what they have read or heard and stating it as biblical fact



#133 Samiam

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:00 PM

Isn't the cure more important than the symptoms?


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#134 swodem

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:02 PM

Isn't the cure more important than the symptoms?

 

of course. Understand what is creating the symptom and you can work on prevention/cure 



#135 swodem

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:05 PM

A new term.

 

Maybe when you supplant Stuart as slot car's #1 motor authority, you can "officially" add it to the slot car car lexicon.

 

 

 

How about you ask him then!? See if he can provide the answer. That would be helpful....



#136 Samiam

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:51 PM

I don't think the Chinese engineers are going to stay awake at night worrying about the woes of a few hundred people worldwide. What are the chances the factory will send one of their technicians to a raceway to study this issue? Less than zero. If it were the motors in Carrera or Scalextric cars letting the smoke out it would be a different story. 

 

In the case of 4002FKs in NZ racing, it seems to be more of a rule problem than a motor one.


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Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#137 swodem

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 11:53 PM

Don't understand your comment
Who even suggested this ?


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#138 Samiam

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 12:08 AM

Who else is going to change the manufacturing process to affect a cure of this issue then? Racers can't change magnets, comms, timing, or open the motor. Their only recourse is to fix the hoods and play with brushes. Or race cars with Koford motors. Stu would like that. 


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#139 swodem

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 12:28 AM

When Koford put out a sealed FK give me a call


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#140 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 12:29 AM

Here are the New Zealand PS4002FK motor rules as they currently stand:

 

attachicon.gif4002motor rules.JPG

OK. Am I getting confused here. Yes the rules do state what you can do with the motor, but they also state that you must use the Turbo Flex chassis and not the C43 that is being used now. From my understanding Auckland broke away from the NZSCA (and made there own rules?). ditched the TF and went with the C43. If this is the case I can't see any reason for them to follow the NZSCA rule of not trimming the motor brushes as their cars no longer conform to the NZSCA rules anyway................... NZSCA = New Zealand slot car association   


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#141 MSwiss

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 01:06 AM

I'm still unconvinced we are on the right track.
 
If the issue was purely the short, then
 
1. No PS4002FK would be a push start until the brushes had worn down
2. All the PS4002FK motors would ALL do this when the brushes were worn down
3. push start motors would be push start ALL THE TIME not just occasionally
 
But the above are simply not foolproof rules
 
There must be another variable and I think it is the comm not being true
 
I really want to hear from someone that knows what they're talking about, not people that are repeating what they have read or heard and stating it as biblical fact

Your 1,2, and 3 comments are all based on the hoods all being perfect, (fit and alignment) and the comm slotting, perfectly 120 degrees apart.

I've never measured the slotting because you need an optical comparator to do that.

It of course is a shorting issue.

No one has ever posted that cutting down their brushes didn't solve the problem.

If you truly believe it's an untrued comm, next time you come across one, take it apart and cut the comm.

It will surely get worse, with the comm being even smaller.
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Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
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#142 swodem

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 01:09 AM

The chassis matters not
The NZSCA rules are what is up for debate
Individual club rules are not


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#143 swodem

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 01:11 AM

It of course is a shorting issue.

No one has ever posted that cutting down their brushes didn't solve the problem.


It's always a shorting issue when you can apply power to an electric motor but it doesn't turn
Regardless how many poles are live

The thing is Why Won't It Turn??


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#144 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 01:26 AM

The chassis matters not
The NZSCA rules are what is up for debate
Individual club rules are not


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what's stopping you from trimming the brushes then.. Just use untrimmed bushes when you race under the Wellington club rules. 



#145 MSwiss

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 01:26 AM

I edited my post to add a but more detail.

I'm sorry you can't accept the fact that cutting the brushes always fixes it.

If you can't, obviously there is no helping you.

Rather than waste your time here, coming up with an alternative theory, why don't you appeal to your rules maker's.

Letting EVERYONE cut their brushes doesn't give any one racer an advantage.
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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#146 swodem

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 01:57 AM

Swiss
You're sounding like I'm not welcome here if I don't agree with you? Somewhat narcissistic.
I'm not interested in changing rules to put a patch on a problem, I'm interested, as I said all along, in identifying what the actual problem is.
This is my thread, if you're disinterested in it, don't join in. So far you've added Zip


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#147 MSwiss

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 02:15 AM

You can disagree, but when you ignore posts like 66 and 72 that corroborate what the easy cure is, it just shows you are unreasonably stubborn.

A cure is a cure, not a patch.

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#148 swodem

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 03:50 AM

Spurred on by the warm support of my New Best Friend (Swiss), tonight I thought I'd continue on my investigation into the three Meltdown motors I have been kindly donated, like this one

8ce54b6103e9f565d36f148dee99ec05.jpg

Not being an Ostrich, I don't believe in sticking my head into the sand and hoping **** goes away

None of the motors I broke down had trimmed or cut brushes

The only thing I could see that they had in common was they each had bad blackening buildup from arcing on ONE com gap. I grabbed one and put it in the lathe and trued up a light cut to see what the result was.

Turns out one com segment was proud, and the first cut only took the surface off the one segment.

So I did the same to the other two. Almost identical result.

4bac1e207a0e9a0d9c8a2f954494ab09.jpg

It's not definitive, it could be that
1. All 4002 motors have a proud com segment
2. Maybe the heat from the short through one segment swelled it slightly

Or possibly..

3. Push start/melting motors are what they are because they have an elliptical uneven com (what I said from the start)

Draw your own conclusions. I've stubbornly drawn mine....you don't CURE headaches with Tylenol, NBF...







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#149 Kim Lander

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 07:26 AM

Man this has been very interesting reading, I am now 64 years old and have been into slotcars since I was 12, never seen so many opinions.....kinda like a Baptist Deacons meeting with 8 deacons present and having 9n different opinions....race on my friends.


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#150 MSwiss

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 09:40 AM

push start/melting motors are what they are because they have an elliptical uneven com (what I said from the start)

But yet, until they self-destruct, they are fast motors on the track, just like their hypothetical, non-ellipitical counterparts.

At one of out hardbody races, one that popped in the bank,after a track call, raced by the future owner of Proslot, was turning the fastest race laps ever in this class.

So it's secret to speed, but not reliable restarting, was it's ellipitical comm? Lol

Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
17B West Ogden Ave
Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.






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