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#201 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:28 PM

Also. What about holding the motor shaft and twisting the comm to change the timing. . Is that legal or not under the rules..To be honest it is very hard to tell if the brush hoods have been moved (as long as the screw head covers the hole).  if it is only 1 or 2 degrees. The only way is to remove them and check the size of the holes. 

I'm not saying anyone is doing this BTW






#202 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:33 PM

But I thought trimmed bushes fixed the problem or did I get that wrong. . Can't get cheaper or easier than that. Or don't you think a out of round comm is the problem. 


They might alleviate it temporarily but once worn down again...
Rather find a better solution...


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#203 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:39 PM

 



#204 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:40 PM

 

Well, it it was as thin as a shaving blade it will follow it almost perfectly but 0.3 mm in a 3.2 mm wide brush I would have no noticeable effect in how the brush follows a non cylindrical com.

 

If the problem is the short, an uneven com will reduce the likelihood of it because a lifted brush will not make contact in two segments simultaneously.

 

Drawing_zpsg4vtqnxe.jpg



#205 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:41 PM

If the shaft on the left side was going clockwise wouldn't you get a short when the brush hit the protruding bit of the comm as the brush has only got about a 1/3 of a segment to go before it his the next one but the top brush has still got 2/3 to go until it is clear of it. 

If the shaft on the left side was going clockwise wouldn't you get a short when the brush hit the protruding bit of the comm as the brush has only got about a 1/3 of a segment to go before it his the next one but the top brush has still got 2/3 to go until it is clear of it. 



#206 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:49 PM

How long have you using these motors for and have they always been do this or is it a new thing. 



#207 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:51 PM

How long have you using these motors for and have they always been do this or is it a new thing. 


Always


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#208 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:56 PM

how long (time wise) have you been using these motors for. 



#209 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:58 PM

Into 3rd year. Where is this going?


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#210 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:23 PM

Ok. I don't care as I don't use these motors or race in your series, but from a outside view it seems a bit strange.

In 3 years you have had the same problem.  Have blown up controllers and motors, but refused to change the rules (yes I know it's not you personal) 

Trimming down the bushes fixes the problem at little or no cost.  Temporarily or permanently or if at all.  Everyone can make up your own minds on that one

Depending on how they are trimmed you might get a slight gain (?) in power. 

and you are looking for a cheap and easy fix. (trimming might be only patch)

You have proven the comms are out of round. Some more than others. 



#211 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:25 PM

I think it takes time for the frustration to build
Into 3rd year not having used it for 3 years
Let me know when you care


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#212 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:36 PM

Nothing illegal until you get caught

So if I turned up with trimmed bushes, slotted hoods, tweaked comm, and a trued comm. Would I get in the door lol. 



#213 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:36 PM

Gave up caring when I got married. 



#214 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:37 PM

and life for that matter



#215 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:43 PM

Pointless discussion Trevor, you won't fork out the $18 to buy one, let alone a C43
Enough nonsensical space wasting


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#216 swodem

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 09:12 PM

 
Well, it it was as thin as a shaving blade it will follow it almost perfectly but 0.3 mm in a 3.2 mm wide brush I would have no noticeable effect in how the brush follows a non cylindrical com.
 
If the problem is the short, an uneven com will reduce the likelihood of it because a lifted brush will not make contact in two segments simultaneously.
 
Drawing_zpsg4vtqnxe.jpg


Guillermo
This is great!!
Unfortunately the raised com section isn't quite right
Any chance you could you redraw it slightly with

1. Raised comm section ok at start (assuming anti clockwise rotation)
2. One brush just coming OFF raised com section but elevated and unable to contact next

I'm interested in how this looks, and would it leave a short circuit in play


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#217 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 09:51 PM

Pointless discussion Trevor, you won't fork out the $18 to buy one, let alone a C43
Enough nonsensical space wasting


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I could start up a give a little page if that would help. 



#218 Zippity

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 10:44 PM

I could start up a give a little page if that would help. 

 

Maybe you should come down to Wellington and compete in the 12-Hour Enduro or the 1/24 Scale Nationals, instead of just pounding the keyboard with nonsensical stuff.....:)



#219 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:10 PM

I would, but I have to do maintenance work to my Hawk motor...........yep all done. 

Now I have to go and get my horse a drink. He's been looking for water all day.



#220 Zippity

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:47 PM

According to NZSCA rules, you cannot race a Hawk motor in neither the Enduro, nor the Nationals :)



#221 Fast Freddie

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:23 AM

Steve, I would only make one final suggestion to you or anyone who races in your series.  If and when you or anyone in the series finds a motor with a definite push start problem side cut the brushes and see if it gets cured.  If it works you have the proof you need to make a valid rules change to save costs and parts.  If it doesn't you can rag on those of use who believe in it, forever.  As my mother use to say "the proof is in the pudding".  To make it even easier use a set of old brushes preferably the ones from that melted endbell. 


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#222 Racer36

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:28 AM

It looks like the best solution is to equip every motor with a cammutator rather than a commutator , and never travel to New Zealand to race.

Problem solved!


Dennis Dominey

Lifelong half-assed slot racer


#223 Brinkley47

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:26 AM

How can I stop getting notifications of this post? I get 35 notifications a day. I like notifications, just not of this thread...lol
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#224 Guillermo Suar

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:51 AM

Guillermo
This is great!!
Unfortunately the raised com section isn't quite right
Any chance you could you redraw it slightly with

1. Raised comm section ok at start (assuming anti clockwise rotation)
2. One brush just coming OFF raised com section but elevated and unable to contact next

I'm interested in how this looks, and would it leave a short circuit in play


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No need to draw. I see where you are going. It would be the same in both cases (uneven and even segments).

 

I fail to see how this will help your theory at all. It will support that truing the comm will not make any difference but trimming the brush will.


Because light travels faster than sound, some people appear to be bright until we hear them speaking.

#225 swodem

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:01 PM

It looks like the best solution is to equip every motor with a cammutator rather than a commutator , and never travel to New Zealand to race.
Problem solved!


Hahaha not for the slot racing anyway
Beautiful country to come to.


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#226 swodem

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:59 PM

Guillermo
You may be right

I've modified your image to help my visualization - are they drawn to scale?

This is what I see happening when a car won't start - no power to next com segment but current going through two bottom poles (note gap). Quite feasible

38958ff49c8e9d023cef3667136b5a3a.jpg

This is what is required for a full short across just a copper comm segment (really fast hard short that melts endbell quickly)

262f61fe42df2939c187fb0a39c4373b.jpg

It's hard to accept that gap would be maintained for such a long section of the com. Myth-busted?


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#227 swodem

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:03 PM

I have measured the degrees advanced of each com slot on these three meltdowners

 

21/21/19

14/14/17

17/19/21

 

Not sure if I can draw any conclusion from this...



#228 Guillermo Suar

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 10:42 AM

Guillermo
You may be right

I've modified your image to help my visualization - are they drawn to scale?

This is what I see happening when a car won't start - no power to next com segment but current going through two bottom poles (note gap). Quite feasible

38958ff49c8e9d023cef3667136b5a3a.jpg

This is what is required for a full short across just a copper comm segment (really fast hard short that melts endbell quickly)

262f61fe42df2939c187fb0a39c4373b.jpg

It's hard to accept that gap would be maintained for such a long section of the com. Myth-busted?


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This is how I see it.

 

In your top drawing the uneven com is just preventing a short through the top segment. Motor will start normally. Meltdown if the com is true.

 

In your bottom drawing the uneven com changes nothing. There is a short through the bottom segment and no contact to top left segment. No start and melt down. Same final result with a trued com.

 

Trimming the brushes will fix the latter and also eliminate the short in the first in the case the com is true. 

 

Final conclusion: Trimming the brushes fixes the push-start problem, no matter which theory is correct. Still I fail to see how an uneven com will cause the issue though.


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Because light travels faster than sound, some people appear to be bright until we hear them speaking.

#229 swodem

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 03:22 PM

Hmmm not just me discovering this.

https://www.facebook...03324599693951/


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#230 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 04:09 PM

It is 100% plausible that the phenolic material is getting so hot that it's allowing the segments to lift dramatically. This in turn might cause a open circuit situation.

Please also note that his vblock placement is non optimal.

Excessive shaft runout induced by the lamination pressing process can wreak havoc on an armature and will cause out of round condition on comms.
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Those who work for a living are being quickly overwhelmed by those who vote for a living.

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#231 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 04:11 PM

Could ot be possible that the 11 and 12 tooth pinions run on flat tracks is causing the overheat condition?

We run the 4002FK with 12s on a 220 foot banked track.

Those who work for a living are being quickly overwhelmed by those who vote for a living.

Thomas Jefferson: "Paper is poverty. It is only the ghost of money, and not money itself."
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#232 swodem

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 04:12 PM

That's more likely to run hot ain't it? Constant full-bore...

They're not running hot leading to meltdown, they're shorting out when taking off from stopped position


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#233 Bazzie

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 03:25 PM

Just a bit of feedback, I wrote an article to our club members on this and we had a quick chat on this at our last club meet. We decided we will allow resetting of the brush tips back to factory condition i.e. by light sanding the tips. On a push-start motor you would just have to do this once every 3-4 weeks and it only takes about 2 minutes. A remit on a rule change will follow, to align to this approach


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#234 swodem

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 03:28 PM

Just a bit of feedback, I wrote an article to our club members on this and we had a quick chat on this at our last club meet. We decided we will allow resetting of the brush tips back to factory condition i.e. by light sanding the tips. On a push-start motor you would just have to do this once every 3-4 weeks and it only takes about 2 minutes. A remit on a rule change will follow, to align to this approach


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I'll be interested to follow the success of this, I know people who have had push start motors from new.



#235 Zippity

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 04:48 PM

Shaving the sides of the brushes was also OK'd.

 

What scrutineer is going to check the brush tips after a race? :(



#236 swodem

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 05:08 PM

Shaving the sides of the brushes was also OK'd.
 
What scrutineer is going to check the brush tips after a race? :(


A random one, or after a post race protest.



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#237 Bazzie

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 06:41 PM

The reason for changing the rule is the push start problem. The endbell hardware melting has the C43 chassis as common denominator, not CTF. Push starts have as a common denominator overlapping brushes. Surely the latter will contribute to the former but that's not the point.

Anyone here wants push-starts? I see no hands going up. Apart from potential damage if you're not fast enough off the throttle, time lost after an off or a track call should be enough of a reason to make the change


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#238 swodem

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 07:06 PM

Bazzie for a smart guy you're way off the facts
Melted endbells are NOT limited to C43, you guys had a whole bunch of them at your 12hr last year, which was CTF only. One of those I have here was off a CTF and another an X25
If pushstarts have overlapping brushes as common denominator, how come some brand new ones do this? Or why not ALL well-worn ones do it?
Other motors such as Chinese arm 16D have same size comm and brushes - why don't they do it?


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#239 Samiam

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 08:02 PM

It's the poly neo magnets. They are not all made the same so the magnetic field varies.So how they interact with the arm varies.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#240 swodem

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 08:04 PM

It's not a bad theory. Any history of this with the Hawk6? Same brushes, brush gear and polyneo magnets...


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#241 Samiam

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 08:11 PM

No experience with the Hawks but I have raced the PS4002 in IRRA Stock Cars. Chinese arm. Very close in all specs other than it has ceramic magnets. I have never had nor heard of a similar problem. The cars all weighed  130+ grams.


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#242 Zippity

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 10:12 PM

A random one, or after a post race protest.



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#243 swodem

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:39 PM

 
The comment was not originally made by me, but rather a couple of our so called "A" racers.
 
I was merely reporting their comments:(


1. It's just wrong and cowardly to quote people without making it very clear who said what. If you're not prepared to, then say nothing

2. I don't know why you feel the need to constantly denigrate those drivers who are faster than you. It's unpleasant.


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#244 Zippity

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 02:05 AM

deleted



#245 swodem

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 02:50 AM

Zip tie
1. Bazzie says you can flatten off your tips now
You say you can also cut them down
What are the rules - no-ones clear after your cowboy hijacking of the event last week threatening to leave if it wasn't allowed. Talk about Keystone Slotracing.

2. Calling people "...so called 'A' racers..." isn't a put-down?


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#246 Zippity

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 03:03 AM

What are you ranting on about?

 

I was RD last week and I certainly didn't toss my toys out of the cot. God knows who is feeding you all this BS!

 

I have deleted my earlier comments. There is no place for them in a public forum!



#247 Bazzie

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 04:54 PM

Sheesh... I can confirm, Ron didn't throw his toys
So I agree, this problem is a systemic one, the result of overall design. The combination of the timing, the magnet strength, small comm, brushes. The only factor in there that we as the user can do anything about is the brushes. Of all the ways in which we could fix the problem, trimming the brushes is certainly the easiest and most practical one. All of the possible fixes are currently prohibited by our rules, hence the need to change the one that allows us to apply the most appropriate easiest fix, that has been proven to work for the push start problem.
I can't speak for what happened at the events you spoke about Steve, when I spoke about the C43 as common denominator, I was referring to recent events, ones I am aware of


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#248 swodem

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 09:11 PM

Bazzie
Now you guys are hastily filing your brushes, keep me updated please with any more issues you have with motors, and the status of their brushes


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#249 Zippity

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 10:01 PM

Don't assume that everyone is hastily filing their brushes.

 

Some of us like to run au naturel :)



#250 Bazzie

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 06:00 PM

Well I've not had push-starts again on the motor that had the problem just before the nats, in fact no push starts for many months on any of my 3 I'm running. My C43 motor was drawing 2.4A @ 3V so I replaced the brushes. It's back down to 1.3A and runs beautifully


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