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PS4002 meltdown


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#101 swodem

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:29 PM

Bazzie, you're off track.
But I have to just pull you up on something
If you go outside the rules, for whatever reason, it's deemed cheating
Whether you are doing so for the purposes of reliability rather than speed, matters not.
Stay within the rules.
Not all motors are push-starts, so your comment about regular replacement isnt valid.
If you want to run with new brushes, just replace the brushes.
But don't take on the position that you can do something the rules say you can't because YOU deem it not to be a performance advantage. It's simply not manageable to have everyone operating in this manner.


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#102 MSwiss

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:38 PM

So you can replace the brushes, turtle them to length with various diameter brush radius tools, etc.

 

But only "factory flats" are allowed? :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:


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#103 Samiam

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:41 PM

Can one of you post the rule as it pertains to brushes? Or a link to your rules?

 

I have been removing the tips of worn in brushes for decades. Most recently on PS Chinese arm motors. I have never been accused of cheating. 


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#104 MSwiss

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 06:51 PM

Unless the rules specifically says something like "factory profile only allowed on new brushes", or "tips may not be reflatted on racer radiused brushes", I think Steve is making up his own rules.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#105 Half Fast

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:22 PM

I don't understand why the bloody rules :wacko2: couldn't be changed to allow the easy and inexpensive solution to an obvious problem :o

Rules are not sacred when they cause a problem. Especially at a club level.

 

Cheers


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Bill Botjer

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#106 swodem

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:38 PM

Unless the rules specifically says something like "factory profile only allowed on new brushes", or "tips may not be reflatted on racer radiused brushes", I think Steve is making up his own rules.


Swiss, Here you go again, you're nearly as bad as Zippity. See post 11 onwards, you've already commented on it. I'm not making up any rules, our governing body does that.
And I don't agree with them on this matter either
My only point was racers can't 'break' rules under the guise that's what they are doing is not a performance enhancement. It's not up to them to judge which to follow and why.
If the rules say all cars must be green, then they must be green, regardless of whether it's a performance enhancement making them another colour or not


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#107 Samiam

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:54 PM

Steve,

What is the exact wording of the rule on brushes?


Sam Levitch
 
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#108 MSwiss

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:58 PM

If post #11 is correct, brushes "cannot be timed, drilled, friction cut, or fitted with shunts"


Mike Swiss
 
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#109 Samiam

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:21 PM

If it doesn't say you can't do it , it isn't illegal.

 

If someone wants to interpret flatting the brush as one of  the disallowed actions, well they should solicit the ruling body to include " flatting of brush tips" in the list of prohibited brush modifications. But until then it is not specifically stated as  illegal . 

 

Bill,

Did I miss my calling? :crazy:


Sam Levitch
 
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#110 Zippity

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:26 PM

Here are the New Zealand PS4002FK motor rules as they currently stand:

 

4002motor rules.JPG



#111 Samiam

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 08:30 PM

I rest my case.  :thank_you2: 


Sam Levitch
 
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#112 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 09:45 PM

I don't use these motors but these above rules make me laugh. You can't change the brushes, hoods etc to stop the push start problems, but it is ok to true up the comm without breaking the seal and that makes a big difference to performance.. No one pulls down a motor so you could trim up the bushes and no one would know. 



#113 Zippity

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 10:17 PM

Trevor, read the rules again - particularly Rule 1.5 - "Brushes & springs may be changed"



#114 swodem

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 10:59 PM

I don't use these motors but these above rules make me laugh. You can't change the brushes, hoods etc to stop the push start problems, but it is ok to true up the comm without breaking the seal and that makes a big difference to performance.. No one pulls down a motor so you could trim up the bushes and no one would know. 


It doesn't say you can true the comm so technically that's in the same boat mate.



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#115 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 12:16 AM

Trevor, read the rules again - particularly Rule 1.5 - "Brushes & springs may be changed"

My bad . I was refering to trimming the bushes to stop the push start problems not changing them. 



#116 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 12:18 AM

It doesn't say you can true the comm so technically that's in the same boat mate.



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It doesn't say that you can't either. Even if it did, how would you enforce it anyway as it would be impossible to tell.



#117 swodem

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:01 AM

And that is the problem with rules mate

 

It does say 'if its not mentioned above you cant do it'....And it doesn't mention Comm truing

But it does specifically say you can't cut or modify brushes. Why? Ask the rule writers.

 

You could argue that, in essence, removing the seal tape and bending the retaining lugs back isn't a performance enhancement either.

 

..it's what comes next..



#118 Fast Freddie

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 03:41 PM

Cutting the brushes to eliminate a push start situation would seem to be a no brainer for the rules guys.  Technically a friction cut involves both sides or the top and bottom or all 4 sides of the brush to help reduce friction.  A single side cut this small would provide a negligible friction reduction and no timing change since the timing is determined by the leading edge not the following edge of the brush.  This cut would reduce brush overlap which creates heat in the motor.  What you guys need to do is push for a rules change.  It may never happen and I for one know just how hard it is for certain people to see the light but if you persist you may be successful, like I was. 


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#119 Zippity

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 03:46 PM

thumb.jpg



#120 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:22 PM

I just had a look at a old email and it had the below attached. . Surely if the problem was known way back then, why wasn't trimming the brushes added to the list when you had a vote on the rule changes. Do you only have a vote once a year?. 

 

Remits left over from 2016 AGM                                                        Vote?
   1 Open LMP class to any stamped chassis                                        yes or no?
2 Open LMP to any internationally available LMP body                        yes or no?
 
3 Retain the 4002 as production motor or change to sealed Hawk 7    4002 or Hawk?
 
4 If 4002 retained, allow Proslot endbell hardware                                yes or no?
 
5 If 4002 retained, allow fully free endbell hardware                              yes or no?
 


#121 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:30 PM

Cutting the brushes to eliminate a push start situation would seem to be a no brainer for the rules guys.  Technically a friction cut involves both sides or the top and bottom or all 4 sides of the brush to help reduce friction.  A single side cut this small would provide a negligible friction reduction and no timing change since the timing is determined by the leading edge not the following edge of the brush.  This cut would reduce brush overlap which creates heat in the motor.  What you guys need to do is push for a rules change.  It may never happen and I for one know just how hard it is for certain people to see the light but if you persist you may be successful, like I was. 

That would be too logical. BTW . If you trimmed the leading edged of each brush would that increase or decrease the timming. 



#122 Zippity

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:40 PM

"Rules are written by FEAR; and that Racers are motivated by the Fear that somebody may have something that gives others an Edge." - Rocky Russo



#123 MSwiss

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 06:48 PM

That would be too logical. BTW . If you trimmed the leading edged of each brush would that increase or decrease the timming. 

More confusion on what increases or decreases timing.

 

Once again, from slot racing's foremost motor expert, Stuart Koford;

 

To change the motor timing you would need to rotate the brush hoods relative to the magnets.

Some racers have the misunderstanding that the point when the edge of the brush touches the edge of the segment is when the coil "turns on" so a change of brush dimension changes timing. Actually there is always current flowing in all three coils and so they are always "on". A wider brush or a smaller comm just effect the amount of time that the brush shorts the comm segments.

Regards,
Stuart


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
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Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#124 SpeedyNH

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:07 PM

well, there are Some rules that one has to have in the spec classes, because otherwise clever people will do some tricky things which make their cars a lot faster.  cutting the brushes to increase the timing, etc. would be one example- if one allows that, now Everyone has to do it to be competitive.

for the problem of the overlap thing causing non-starting in some motors, if putting brand-new legal flat brushes makes the motor work again, why not just do that? (or try another motor.) has anyone played with different springs/ tension to see if that has any effect?

 

as an aside, does anyone examine the top three in post-race tech to make sure? you wouldn't Believe some of the unallowed things I found back when I ran a series (you probably have as well), and we didn't have very many rules. (spec arm, bearings and magnets, otherwise do whatever you want with the chassis. we had a lot of fun.)

speedy


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#125 Zippity

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:10 PM

Assuming that the brush hoods are not moved, there is no way that you can advance a motors timing if you remove part of both brushes - you can only retard it.

 

Am I correct with this statement?







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