391 replies to this topic

[Fast Freddie]

Steve, in your post #148 the arms you show all look like they are riding high in the can which would cause them to push against the endbell bushing.  They look similar to the arms in earlier posts.  If you are not gluing the endbell bushing in place it could go loose and cause the endbell to melt, not unheard of.  I have never had a PS4002FK get hot enough to melt the endbell but the mini 12s I built did get very hot before I cut the brushes to reduce the overlap and that was with BFII brushes and .198 dia. comm..  Cutting the brushes is the only cure for the push start with the current motor/arm dimensions.  Keep in mind that while the arm is suppose to have a nominal 15 degrees of timing what's to say some don't come through production with 12 degrees or maybe 18 degrees?  I'm sure there is a plus/minus timing degrees out there somewhere but who knows what that is?  The magnets also attribute to the push start problem by their placement.  Perfectly parallel tips and square in the can may not exist in all motors.  I for one like my brushes to run centered on the comm..  That's very rare with these motors.  Usually they are either low against can bushing or high against the endbell bushing.  A racer has to see this during break-in and lubricate that "loaded" bushing accordingly to help prevent early destruction. 

[swodem]

MSwiss, on 18 Mar 2017 - 2:40 PM, said:

But yet, until they self-destruct, they are fast motors on the track, just like their hypothetical, non-ellipitical counterparts.

At one of out hardbody races, one that popped in the bank,after a track call, raced by the future owner of Proslot, was turning the fastest race laps ever in this class.

So it's secret to speed, but not reliable restarting, was it's ellipitical comm? Lol

 

Theres not much difference between 4002's that are running OK

They are a torquey motor rather than a revver.

Whats their actual top track RPM, 30,000 tops?

​The sad thing is neither the guy that sells the motors over his counter, nor the guy that now owns the company that manufactures and supplies them is interested in working out the problem in order to come up with a solution.

Your sarcasm is lazy

[swodem]

Guillermo Suar, on 18 Mar 2017 - 2:57 PM, said:

 

This would not explain why my motor was fixed cutting the brushes. So, I also already have drawn my conclusion about what is the cause. Time for a poll?

 

Guillermo, yes it would. The narrower brushes prevents the direct short, and it will follow the variances of the comm's shape better/sooner.

[Frankie Schaffier]

The most I've seen is 32,000 RPM.. Norm seems to be around 28,000 rpm with how I'm checking them.

[swodem]

MSwiss, on 18 Mar 2017 - 3:15 PM, said:

Guillermo,
If this guys head was stuck in a vice, instead of turning the handle counter-clockwise, he would stand there until he figured out a way to shrink his head.

 

Mike

I see when you run out of argument and knowledge you just revert to personal attack.

Maybe you just want to keep on selling replacement motors for those that go pop...

[swodem]

Frankie Schaffier, on 18 Mar 2017 - 7:46 PM, said:

The most I've seen is 32,000 RPM.. Norm seems to be around 28,000 rpm with how I'm checking them.

Frankie

 

I'm interested how you did this

 

I set up a rifle chronograph upside down over our track and drove a car underneath it, to get actual car speed, then recalculated back.

 

From memory most of my runs were in the 29,000 bracket, so we're close. 

[swodem]

Fast Freddie, on 18 Mar 2017 - 5:58 PM, said:

Steve, in your post #148 the arms you show all look like they are riding high in the can which would cause them to push against the endbell bushing.  They look similar to the arms in earlier posts.  If you are not gluing the endbell bushing in place it could go loose and cause the endbell to melt, not unheard of.  I have never had a PS4002FK get hot enough to melt the endbell but the mini 12s I built did get very hot before I cut the brushes to reduce the overlap and that was with BFII brushes and .198 dia. comm..  Cutting the brushes is the only cure for the push start with the current motor/arm dimensions.  Keep in mind that while the arm is suppose to have a nominal 15 degrees of timing what's to say some don't come through production with 12 degrees or maybe 18 degrees?  I'm sure there is a plus/minus timing degrees out there somewhere but who knows what that is?  The magnets also attribute to the push start problem by their placement.  Perfectly parallel tips and square in the can may not exist in all motors.  I for one like my brushes to run centered on the comm..  That's very rare with these motors.  Usually they are either low against can bushing or high against the endbell bushing.  A racer has to see this during break-in and lubricate that "loaded" bushing accordingly to help prevent early destruction. 

 

FF

They are not my motors.

The melted endbell isn't caused by a build up of heat by friction, its caused by electrical short circuit when power (full) is applied but the motor wont/cant spin.

Loaded bushings as you have indicated can sometimes be relieved by moving the magnets in the opposite direction and re-glueing

[Frankie Schaffier]

Steve,

I do it a couple ways depending on if I'm home or at the track. If I'm home, I use the Trinty dyno. I just put the sensor on the motor shaft and hold it over the pickup on the dyno. I don't bolt the motor into the fixture to get the max RPM, it's quicker to just hold it over the pickup. I do bolt the motors to the trinty dyno to break in the motors, as I can set it to run, then to pause to cool, re-start, etc.

When at the track I use a hand held tach I bought off Amazon. Put the pickup tape on a 2mm spur gear that slides onto the motor shaft. Hook the motor up to the powersupply (6V)and read the RPMs.

[swodem]

Frankie Schaffier, on 18 Mar 2017 - 8:05 PM, said:

Steve,

I do it a couple ways depending on if I'm home or at the track. If I'm home, I use the Trinty dyno. I just put the sensor on the motor shaft and hold it over the pickup on the dyno. I don't bolt the motor into the fixture to get the max RPM, it's quicker to just hold it over the pickup. I do bolt the motors to the trinty dyno to break in the motors, as I can set it to run, then to pause to cool, re-start, etc.

When at the track I use a hand held tach I bought off Amazon. Put the pickup tape on a 2mm spur gear that slides onto the motor shaft. Hook the motor up to the powersupply (6V)and read the RPMs.

 

Oh so you are measuring UNLOADED rpm? These should then be close to 50,000rpm

[Frankie Schaffier]

Yep, unloaded. And 50,000 RPM isn't what I'm getting with my equipment Steve.. Nor are others. And remember, this number is at 6 volts.

[swodem]

Frankie Schaffier, on 18 Mar 2017 - 8:10 PM, said:

Yep, unloaded. And 50,000 RPM isn't what I'm getting with my equipment Steve.. Nor are others. And remember, this number is at 6 volts.

I just looked up some of my old notes

I was getting around 29fps on the main straight

Thats 1740 feet per minute

or 530,352 mm per minute

tyre circumference of 52mm gives me 10,199 wheel rotations per minute

Geared 12:36 means 30,597 rpm

[Frankie Schaffier]

Closer... But I've seen times when the motor that turns the most RPM isn't the best motor, depending on the track I suppose. Here's the Amazon link for the hand held I use..

https://www.amazon.c...held tachometer

Sorry for subject drift gentlemen. Back to beating the dead horse push start subject.

[MSwiss]

swodem, on 18 Mar 2017 - 7:51 PM, said:

 

Mike

I see when you run out of argument and knowledge you just revert to personal attack.

Maybe you just want to keep on selling replacement motors for those that go pop...

If you want any credibility on the board, you really need to make a statement that makes sense.

 

I'm the guy selling the brushes that cures the problem.

 

http://slotblog.net/...-hawk-6-motors/

 

And with clear pictures, so racers can cure the problem themselves, using their existing brushes.

 

Local racers, who buy motors from me, I cut down the stock brushes, that come with the motor, N/C.

 

Every racer that has chimed in on this situation, in this thread, except for you, has agreed it fixes the problem.

 

Regardless, on the .01% chance, the issue was an elliptical comm, how could the racer cure that problem with the draconian NZ rules?

 

I've provided a solution since Aug., 2016.

 

You are just coming up with an alternative theory, that no one buys, but yourself.

[swodem]

hahahaha yeah say no more    "...I'm the guy selling...."  dude you should be giving these away with every motor you sell

 

I just proved my theory with a lathe. Now I just need to come up with a cheap and easy way to true the comm in the can

 

How about a fix for the motor....Swiss, Pro-Slot....anyone!!??

[MSwiss]

swodem, on 18 Mar 2017 - 8:42 PM, said:

I just proved my theory with a lathe.

You've proved virtually nothing.

 

All you've proved was that the comm, on an inexpensive motor, after getting so hot the hardware melted off the endbell, might not be perfectly true.

 

Go and true the comm on a motor that didn't slow, and see what it looks like.

 

Or more importantly, get a motor that needs frequent push starts, and before it melts the endbell, true the comm and see if the problem is 100% fixed.

 

Regardless, you consider reflatting brushes illegal, but retruing the comm, inside the motor, isn't?

 

I guess you didn't read from your rules;

1.10 No motor modifications other than those detailed will be permitted.

 

Making the comm smaller outside the Chinese factory sure sounds like a motor modification to me.

[MSwiss]

In case you missed it, I added the below passage to my last post, on your willingness to cheat, as long as it's your own method of cheating;

 

Regardless, you consider reflatting brushes illegal, but retruing the comm, inside the motor, isn't?

 

I guess you didn't read from your rules;

1.10 No motor modifications other than those detailed will be permitted.

 

Making the comm, truer and smaller, outside the Chinese factory, sure sounds like a motor modification to me.

[swodem]

Damn you're out to get me eh Swiss...

Is truing the com modifying or blue printing?

Cutting brushes sure is modifying


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[MSwiss]

swodem, on 18 Mar 2017 - 8:42 PM, said:

dude you should be giving these away with every motor you sell

See below. You might of missed it the first time you read that post.
 
I don't give $4.50 brushes away, as I have rent to pay, but I do modify the existing brushes, N/C.
 
 

MSwiss, on 18 Mar 2017 - 8:26 PM, said:

Local racers, who buy motors from me, I cut down the stock brushes, that come with the motor, N/C.

 
 

swodem, on 18 Mar 2017 - 9:13 PM, said:

Is truing the com modifying or blue printing?

Cutting brushes sure is modifying
 

You'll need to double check with your org.
 
PS-I said "flatting".
 
IOW, restoring to stock profile.

[swodem]

MSwiss, on 18 Mar 2017 - 9:25 PM, said:

See below. You might of missed it the first time you read that post.
 
I don't give $4.50 brushes away, as I have rent to pay, but I do modify the existing brushes, N/C.
 
   
  You'll need to double check with your org.
 
PS-I said "flatting".
 
IOW, restoring to stock profile.

 

I understand the rent thing. 

Its good you look after your customers

I don't see comm truing as any different to brush radiusing, its the same thing but inverted. Just harder to do.

I was referring to your cut brushes, not the flatting process (some of) the guys are doing down here.

Looking at your link posted, our rules seem similar too most over there regards cut brushes.

Either way, a permanent fix not a patch would be preferable. 

[MSwiss]

swodem, on 18 Mar 2017 - 9:36 PM, said:

I was referring to your cut brushes, not the flatting process (some of) the guys are doing down here.

 

 ......

 

Either way, a permanent fix not a patch would be preferable. 

Of course my brushes would be illegal in your rules.

 

But you were railing against the guy who just wanted to restore the stock profile on his own.

 

Permanent fix?

 

Force the Chinese to true their comm better? LOL

 

And as far as your comment "Is truing the com modifying or blue printing?", your rules don't say you can "blueprint" the motor.

 

Your rules never use the word "blueprint".

 

They have a list of allowable modifications and adjustments, and state anything else is illegal.

 

So I'm 98% sure they would not allow you to retrue the comm.

[swodem]

I didn't rail against Bazzie, I just made it clear he couldn't choose which rules to break because his opinion was it made no performance gain
I also said I don't agree with the rule
Go back and read what I wrote


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[Trevor Neilson]

OK. this is going no where. As I have said before I don't use these motors or race in your series so it doesn't bother me what rules you use. Steve can you clarify a couple of things for me (when I say you I am meaning the people that make up the rules)

1/ These rules are they for your Auckland club or for the NZSCA rules. If the latter then why allow the C43 when the TF is stated is the chassis to use. 

2/ Why so hung up of not allowing the bushes to be trimmed. Regardless of the cause if it fixes the problem it has to be a good thing.

3/ If you are so determined not to allow trimmed bushes, why turn a blind eye to the people that true up their comms.

4/  Have you ever trued up a comm that doesn't need a push start or has melted. You will probably find even a good one is out of round. Otherwise why would people say it makes a big difference. (I was standing right next to them when they were talking about it)

5/ Why was there never a vote to allow trimmed bushes in the rules.This is the only 2 thing they could vote on. 

 

4 If 4002 retained, allow Proslot endbell hardware                                yes or no?

 

5 If 4002 retained, allow fully free endbell hardware                              yes or no?

 

 

[swodem]

NowhereBoy
The answers are;
1. NZSCA. They pertain to the motor. The motor is run with a variety of Chassis.
2. I'm not, I'm just stating the rules. Read what I have posted
3. I'm not. Who is truing comms?
4. Yes. Big difference how? More responsive, yes. Faster, nope. Mostly those talking about it aren't doing it, just moaning that's why they are losing
5. No-one put it forward as a remit. We put forward two remits, 1 was to allow the better copper hardware, 2 was to open up the endbell completely as in Can Do Anything. Your club voted NO to both


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[Guillermo Suar]

swodem, on 18 Mar 2017 - 7:46 PM, said:

 

Guillermo, yes it would. The narrower brushes prevents the direct short, and it will follow the variances of the comm's shape better/sooner.

 

Yes, prevents the short. Nothing to do with the com being oval. 0.3 mm (that's what I've removed) won't change the way the brush follows the comm. 

[Trevor Neilson]

swodem, on 19 Mar 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

NowhereBoy
The answers are;
1. NZSCA. They pertain to the motor. The motor is run with a variety of Chassis.
2. I'm not, I'm just stating the rules. Read what I have posted
3. I'm not. Who is truing comms?
4. Yes. Big difference how? More responsive, yes. Faster, nope. Mostly those talking about it aren't doing it, just moaning that's why they are losing
5. No-one put it forward as a remit. We out forward two remits, 1 was to all the better copper hardware, 2 was to open up the endbell completely as in Can Do Anything. Your club voted NO to both


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lordandmastertoyou

1/ That really doesn't make sense. If you look here there is no C43 class as such unless you go to G12 etc, but then you wouldn't use that chassis anyway. http://nzsca.co.nz/rules/rulebook/

Dose your club go by the NZSCA rules but use a different chassis. If so what is stopping your club having a vote on it and adopting as local club rule if enough people wanted it. 

BTW. I had to google pertain to found out what it meant lol.

2/ yes I know. That's why I said.."when I say you I am meaning the people that make up the rules".

​3/ It doesn't matter. All I will say they were in the top 4. lol

4/ refer above. Don't know about the 1st part, but I do have a opinion on the 2nd part of that sentence.

5/ there is a big difference between filling the brushes to  "1 was to all the better copper hardware, 2 was to open up the endbell completely as in Can Do Anything". Why can't you put a remit forward for filling the brushes. Won't that tell you what the people want. It's slot car racing not america's cup racing after all.