102 replies to this topic

[NJ Racer]

Fate...

You missed the point, but I understand as I was indeed comparing apples to oranges. New York racer Mike Katz ran his '60s jail rail brass car in the first East Coast retro race last year and did very well with it while adhering to our current rules, specs, and 21st century options.

Forty years earlier, Mike raced in the Elmsford Arco33 and ran very well while adhering to Arco rules, etc., and using terrible tires compared to what's used today. If Mike only had today's rubber in the Arco race, he would have smoked Brady and the rest of the field. I would bet on it, regardless of Mike says how he felt about that race.

[idare2bdul]

Modern tires are often overlooked as the major advance they are. I can't speak for the '60's but by mid-1970s you could not buy a competitive over-the-counter tire on the West Coast. Having a team connection was a major help.

Now, with tires that are treated, untreated, offering differing rubber types and hub sizes, you can go fast or confuse the heck out of yourself.

[tonyp]

Mike,

More than most people can possibly imagine. The natural rubber made a giant performance gain in R/C where it was first used.

In the '60s and '70s all the rubber was pretty much the same. It all came from Rubatex and you were at the mercy of how the batch came out as to how good your tires were. There was no treating. Basically the different color rubber had different softness. You basically bought what they had. The tires also needed to be broken-in.

This stopped in the glue era when it was realized brand new tires out of the tube gave the most bite in Stick-it.

[Bob Emott]

Where was that King located? It looks sort of like the old Nutley (Bellville) King with its blue epoxy sides and matching blue epoxy glue zones...

[Bob Emott]

All the American Kings I ever raced on had the same bank. Maybe it was a converted American red? Did that have a different bank?

P, did the Nutley King have the lip on the top of the big bank? Did the BIR King? Darn... I just can't remember...

[tonyp]

I believe they both had the lips. The Nutley King was full glue and I am sure that track is buried along with Hoffa.

We started Limited Glue on the East Coast after Joel and I returned from the glue bath at the Western States. That started out here the glue zones and all.

It could be BIR's track... Or maybe one you did for someone else.

[slotcarone]

I think all the King tracks came with the lip on the bank - I know the one at Glenn Oaks had it but I don't remember losing any cars in it!! Guess I was lucky or maybe just going too slow to de-slot

[slotcarone]

New York racer Mike Katz ran his '60s jail rail brass car in the first east coast retro race last year and did very well with it while adhering to our current rules, specs, and 21st century options.

I actually ran that chassis I built in the '60s in the first three East Coast races. Modern tires and a smaller and lighter motor make a big difference!!

[JerseyJohn]

The Nutley King definitely had a lip. If it wasn't there, I would have been getting my cars from the ceiling

[Ron Hershman]

Mac's in Columbus has a "lip" in the bank.

Didn't the BIR King wind up in Hartford, MI, which became the Fantom/Pro Slot King???

[tonyp]

I believe so.

[Bob Emott]

Didn't the BIR King wind up in Hartford, MI, which became the Fantom/Pro Slot King???

Nope... That King track was from CT and did belong to me for many years. I bought it with the intention of setting it up one day but never getting around to it. One day, I got a phone call from the building owner who said I had to move it right away or he was going to junk it. So I sold it for very little money and away it went to MI... I had another King in storage locally and that became the BIR King...

I don't remember the name of the raceway, but I do remember that it was on the third floor of an old mill building. (Help, Tony...) Most of the East Coast racers will remember it, as we had some great races there including the first of the Octoberfest races...

Along with the King, I got an American yellow 220, and a second King which were stored in another part of the building behind a false wall... Sadly, when I went to sell the good King, I found that someone had cut out the thick plywood bottoms of most of the sections of the other tracks to use for who knows what... And naturally, the building owner knew nothing about it...

I did rescue the finger turn of the King and two of the large radius flat turns from the big Yellow track and along with some self-built straight sections, this was the first track up and running at BIR hobby shop... The first track that was set up was a Hilclimb but I finished the oval first as I was running out of money and had to get the shop doors open to be able to pay the rent... LOL... Tony P helped me get the raceway open, and without his help, there would never have been a BIR Hobby Shop.... (or, for that matter, a Trinity Products!!!! Trinity started on the coffee table in Ernie's mothers apartment and when the whole apartment ended up with storage shelves fior Trinity goodies, Ernie moved his workshop to an 8 by 12 foot back room at BIR Hobby Shop). Thanks again, P... from both of us...

[tonyp]

Bob,

It was C&C in Coventry, CT. Mark Calchara (spelling?) was the owner. It was super fast regular surface. They had a big-arse charger they would turn on for qualifying (Big Alice).

That was the track where I planned a motor change in the middle of the main (on purpose and the first time that I believe it was done as part of race strategy) and broke the 40 minute world record with a whopping 497 or 499 laps. I forget which.

[NJ Racer]

Almost sure that's 1988-1990 with Keith Keeler at the drivers panel leaning over in the top pic and Ray Lee marshaling the deadman in the bottom pic, both from the New England area. I raced with them at Elmsford when they came down.

[Jaz]

Good job, Ray!

Actually it's from 1986. The track was Sully Asko's 811 Pittstop in Norristown, PA, outside of Philadelphia.

Also in the second picture is Bill Price from Camen, 8-year-old Cris Castoro, R.J. something, Bill Hess, Fritz and Wayne Bramble marshalling the lead-on, and Billy K at the donut. It was a I-15 semi race.

At the time, Jon Laster held the G7 world record there with something like a 2.35 sec lap.

It is rumored that that track was Tango's King.

During the mid to late '80s, it was the ONLY King track on the East Coast, I think. We raced there and at Elmsford. In '89, Doug Bauer had Hasse build a King on Long Island. That was Islip Miniature Speedway, and it eventually became Port Jefferson Raceway. They have since gone through two Olgilvie Kings and I believe are now having Gary Gerding build a new King track.

And no... they will not hold D3 races there.

[NJ Racer]

Keith Keeler was a super fast International 15 Racer and Ray Lee was on top of the Pro Wire 12 program at the time.

[Jaz]

Yes, Keith WAS the East Coast I-15 man. He and Gary Pierce (chassis builder) were quite a team, both from upstate NY-Albany area. Keith was always the one to beat and when Dickie P and he were on the track together, it was quite the battle. Later on, I remember when both their sons were racing too and Keith's son won the Nats one year, Keith was in tears

Back in those days, we raced only three classes. I-15, GP27, and G7. Box 15 (Boxstock) was beginning to make an appearance as a beginners class in the late '80s. There was no wire 12 until, maybe, towards the late '90s.

[JEngland]

Here is a LINK to a photograph of a King track with the steep high bank.

I'll try to get a better picture on here soon but this King does have a high bank steeper than 30 degrees

It was also used for the 1982 Nats.

[endbelldrive]

And weren't pro cars in '69 using diaplanes on the front and "smallish" (by today's standards) wrap-around air dams on the back?

Yessiree... the front diaplane would cover the guide because the nose on most bodies were way too short. It wouldn't be uncommon to run a 4-1/16" wheelbase with a 15/16" guide lead... ouch!

[Cheater]

Bob,

Would you mind revealing the source of that nice illustration?

[Hworth08]

Greg,

I'm not sure but guessing 1970 or 71 NCC rules.

[Jairus]

Not Bob... but, February 1969 Car Model Magazine!

[Cheater]

Thanks, Jairus.

I was just curious...

[tonyp]

Steve Okeefe (Independent Scratchbuilder) has lots of the old rule sets on his website.

1966 Rod & Custom
1967 Car Model Group III
1968 Car Model National Championship
1968 ARCO Rules
1969 Car Model National Championship
1970 NCC

[rdmac]

Bob,
Would you mind revealing the source of that nice illustration?

Who!!! Me?

Greg, that picture is from the 1969 Car Model National Championship

Go here for more Vintage Rule Sets

You can find it all at The Independent Scratch Builder