Jump to content




Photo

Lancer history by an original pattern maker - me!


  • Please log in to reply
139 replies to this topic

#126 Martin

Martin

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,222 posts
  • Joined: 22-February 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:US

Posted 24 October 2018 - 11:28 PM

Hey Dave,a small detail. When drilling the small vent holes from the top, I assume at all kinds of angles, how do you locate the bigger holes so they connect somewhere in the middle. The only way I could do it is to drill the small hole all the way and then make it bigger from the bottom. But that would take for ever. Was it a solid block of plaster or had it been hollowed out to some degree?

You said you did it with a pin vise and a #80 drill. How deep do you drill from the top? it must of taken a long time? How many holes on average are we talking? I am surprised it does not chip the plaster. did it ever?

Lot of speculation here, but I have been trying to understand this procedure.

Thanks in advance for taking the time to help me with this.


Martin Windmill




#127 Dave of '60s Lancer

Dave of '60s Lancer

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 47 posts
  • Joined: 10-November 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northwest

Posted 25 October 2018 - 11:40 AM

Martin - More great questions :good:

 

The production molds that got the vent holes were cast out of aluminum filled epoxy resin and were cast in a RTV female mold,

cast from the plaster master we made to begin the mold making process - See page 4 post #12 for casting the resin.

 

We never used plaster production molds and we never drilled vent holes in plaster masters.

 

The plaster masters were just the beginning of the process, not used as production molds.

 

 There's a lot of info in all these posts so I hope that helps clarify the process.

 

Here's a short list of the production mold making process in order.

 

1) Made the plaster master.

 

2) Cast RTV silicone rubber around the plaster master.

 

3) Cast aluminum filled epoxy resin into the RTV silicone rubber mold for a production mold.

 

4) Cast the base of the production mold out of aluminum filled epoxy resin.

 

5) Drilled all the vent holes in the production aluminum filled epoxy production mold.


Dave Susan

#128 Martin

Martin

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,222 posts
  • Joined: 22-February 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:US

Posted 25 October 2018 - 08:06 PM

Yes sorry, that all makes perfect sense. I was forgetting the production tool was  aluminum filled epoxy resin.

 

The only thing I am missing is........ how deep do you drill from the top?

 

  How many holes on average are we talking?

 

How long did that take on average?

 

When drilling the small vent holes from the top,( I assume at all kinds of angles) how do you locate the bigger holes so they connect somewhere in the middle?

 

Thanks in advance for taking the time to help me with this.

 

Would you ever consider doing a small instruction booklet ? Do you know someone that could do real basic illustrations? :)  I mean you have all the info here, it would need to be arranged and edited with pics. It would be a great way to pass the craft on, and it would be an eternal source of info for generations to come.  :good:


Martin Windmill

#129 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • IRRA National Director
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,910 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 October 2018 - 08:52 PM

Maybe a visual will help you, Martin.
 
Here's my 3D created McLaren M7.
 
It's actually the master, but the guy pulling the bodies for me, was toying around with pulling bodies directly off of it, so he added the vent holes.
 
They really won't be of much help without going all the way through.

 

It will be interesting to hear from David, if at Lancer, if they hollowed out the bottom.

 

IMO, that would be a bad idea, as it would reduce the heat sinking, possibly leading to the mold cracking.

 

Question for David, did the molds ever crack at Lancer?
 
On the small vacuform we used at Koford, the 19 years I was there, the whole plate that the molds were attached to, was perforated, like the bottom pic.

 

20181025_204203.jpg

 

20181025_204233.jpg

 

9255t131p1-c01cs.png?ver=1342082890


  • tonyp and JoB like this

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#130 Dave of '60s Lancer

Dave of '60s Lancer

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 47 posts
  • Joined: 10-November 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northwest

Posted 26 October 2018 - 08:44 PM

Martin.

The questions about drilling holes and me trying trying to answer enters a "Gray Area" of explaination. It's not a technical question

at all, but it enters the arena of "How high is up" kinda questions for me.. What I'm realizing as the questions come to me is that, as

I look back I just did what I did. Doing what I did was "Routine" and easy.

 

I've heard it said many times before that knowledge doesn't make you better on it's own, you have to be gifted with the inate  or

built in skills that just need to be "HONED". I'll never be an auto mechanic - I just don't have the skills needed compared to

some great mechanics I've met.

 

Unfortunately, some people think everything is "Plug - Play. With a little knowledge you can do everything. It just doesn't work that way.

 

I'll answer the best I can :sun_bespectacled:

 

The larger holes I drilled from the bottom were usually drilled within a 1/8 inch of the surface by marking the drill with masking tape

as a depth guide. The depth has to be calculated by eye, like some people do things by feel. There's kind of an extra 6th sense that

kicks in to get it right and it was always a bit unnerving while drilling those larger holes from the bottom up.

 

I only went through the surface once, drilled all the way through to the surface ONCE, and was enough for me to be even more careful. You don't

forget that feeling of 'SHOCK" when that larger drill breaks through. I almost jumped out of my seat.

 

You forget about this for over 50 years, but it comes back real fast with the same feelings when I'm remembering other things and that comes back.

 

How many holes did I drill ??

John always said drill  more than necessary.

 

In Mswiss post, looking at his mold and the number of vent holes drilled into that mold, I would have easily drilled 2 to 3 times as many holes - EASILY,

on some molds maybe 4 times as many, depending on the details. This isn't just art and skill, it's science and engineering also.

 

You have to remember that plastic instantly begins to cool as it touches the mold. The mold acts as a heat sink and begins chilling the plastic

the moment the plastic touches it, slowing the forming process, so, many more vent holes help to overcome the chilling effect, and help form the precise detail we achieved.

 

You learn to "Professionally " wing it :sarcastic_hand:

 

Here's an interesting bit of information. The epoxy resin molds heat up a bit from the warm plastic, but if your using plaster molds which never heat up, the chilling

of the plastic is much more dramatic and makes forming extremely difficult as the plastic cools so much faster and so much detail is lost

We tried it as an experiment and the results spoke for themselves\ - terrible !!!

 

As far as how many holes did I drill, remember the cars were all different sizes from GP open wheel cars to enclosed 4 wheel cars, and larger

and smaller cars, and different scales, so no real good answer. My experience with forming bodies gave me the answer as I watched the plastic form

Experience is still the best teacher.

No matter how much information I share hear, if someone's going to do this, they have to so to speak, jump in the trenches and get there feet wet. It's not all head knowledge.

 

Not everything is cut and dried and can be written in a book. We were just the right people for the job. We naturally understood the science

and the engineering part and had the right "FEEL" - except for one time :dash2: :laugh2:.

 

I hope that gives you a reasonable answer that works for you. :good:


Dave Susan

#131 Bill from NH

Bill from NH

    Age scrubs away speed!

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,759 posts
  • Joined: 02-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Boston, NH

Posted 26 October 2018 - 09:40 PM

Dave, would I be correct in saying that having too may vent holes would be better than having too few? It seems to me that one would have to make a few molds before you got the hang of where vent holes would be needed & where they weren't. Couldn't unneeded vent holes be plugged or filled with some material? There is a Facebook page called "Vacuum Forming for Hobbyists" or something similar. Perhaps some of these question would be more appropiately asked there.


Bill Fernald
 
I intend to live forever!  So far, so good.  :laugh2:  :laugh2: 

#132 Dave of '60s Lancer

Dave of '60s Lancer

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 47 posts
  • Joined: 10-November 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northwest

Posted 26 October 2018 - 09:58 PM

Bill

How would anyone know if a vent hole was un-needed???


Dave Susan

#133 Dave of '60s Lancer

Dave of '60s Lancer

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 47 posts
  • Joined: 10-November 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northwest

Posted 27 October 2018 - 10:17 PM

MSwiss

 

Sounds like you've had plenty of experience with slot cars and vacuum forming.

 

Your 2 questions did we hollow out our molds or did they ever crack are good.

 

We never hollowed out the molds we made and the aluminum filled epoxy resin was

so strong you could throw one of our molds as hard as you wanted against the floor

or a wall and they'd just bounce, but not break. We had heard of that and so we

took a reject blank and tried it and got the above results.


Dave Susan

#134 Bill from NH

Bill from NH

    Age scrubs away speed!

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,759 posts
  • Joined: 02-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Boston, NH

Posted 28 October 2018 - 07:33 AM

Bill

How would anyone know if a vent hole was un-needed???

 

That answers my question about, "Can you ever have too any vent holes.",  thanks. :)


Bill Fernald
 
I intend to live forever!  So far, so good.  :laugh2:  :laugh2: 

#135 Dave of '60s Lancer

Dave of '60s Lancer

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 47 posts
  • Joined: 10-November 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northwest

Posted 28 October 2018 - 11:39 PM

Post #15

 

                                                                                                        Trimming the plastic and pulling the bodies.

 

The machine operator or lead operator always wore heavy gloves because the plastic was very hot.

Once the plastic was formed over the parts, the plastic was lifted off the machine and the molds stayed

 in the formed plastic. 

The operator would use his large pair of scissors to divide the formed parts and push them to the trimmers

who would use an Exacto knife to separate the scrap plastic from the formed part and then, with their

fi8ngernails under the formed and trimmed part, would begin the lifting process of removing the formed body.

 

Like learning to play a guitar and getting sore fingers until you formed some calluses, when first starting as a trimmer

you kind of developed some toughness under your nails because at first it would be painful removing the bodies from the molds.

 

Some tryouts made it and others passed

 

Now if someone is thinking of asking me how we got them off, there is no verbal explaination, because it's something that has to be demonstrated.

 

As far as multi-piece molds and getting them off, it's pretty much the same thing. It has to be demonstrated as part of the training process.

 

Well guys, unless theirs questions, I think that I'm done here.

 

Thanks for having me, and for those who believe me, thank you.

 

All the best in enjoying your wonderful hobby to all of you.

 

My best  regards,

Dave Susan


  • jimht, Steve Deiters, A. J. Hoyt and 1 other like this
Dave Susan

#136 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • IRRA National Director
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,910 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 October 2018 - 11:23 PM

MSwiss
 
Sounds like you've had plenty of experience with slot cars and vacuum forming.
 
Your 2 questions did we hollow out our molds or did they ever crack are good.
 
We never hollowed out the molds we made and the aluminum filled epoxy resin was
so strong you could throw one of our molds as hard as you wanted against the floor
or a wall and they'd just bounce, but not break. We had heard of that and so we
took a reject blank and tried it and got the above results.

Yes, plenty of experience in slot cars.

19 years as GM of Koford Eng., sort of the Ferrari of slot racing, and 13 years as a raceway owner, building both of my tracks.

All that, along with, racing in the golden era of
Lancer.

Not a ton of experience vacuum forming.

Most of it was yelling across the Koford factory floor, "Rick I need 100 bulk Peugeots, for XXXX".

Koford is mainly a "wing car" company, and the bodies are/were quite simple, with us never having more than 6-8 different bodies, at any one time.

We had a small vacuum from machine, which held an approx. 12" X 15" perforated base plate.

We originally had 2 bodies mounted on each plate, but later went to one per plate, with a more angled back (which is cut off on a wing body), so the body would pull off of the mold easier.

Those "one per plate" bodies, were highly regarded for their even pulls.

I did make a few of my own crude molds, from Bondo.

I would get a few bodies off of the mold, before it would crack.

Just enough usable copies to confirm I didn't know much about aerodynamics.

As far as my questions, I asked about possibly hollowing out the bottom, as I while saw the small holes on the top of the mold, I never remember watching when Stu Koford would glue the mold to the perforated base, so I wondered how was it assured those holes would he effective.

Your post #115, with the counter holes, and the channeling, that connected them, explains it clearly.

I had missed that post, when I asked that hollowing question.

As far as mold breakage, I know the aluminum filled epoxy was/is quite strong.

What happened once or twice, at Koford, was the operator would get distracted, with the heater in the down position.

Without the air from the vacuum pump, or the cooling from the plastic, forming over it, the mold would just get hotter and hotter, and eventually crack.

Along with the nuts and bolts about vacuum forming, I've also enjoyed your stories about the factory hijinks.

One at Koford, involved the vacuum form machine.

I was checking an order that was going to go out to a distributor.

I noticed there appeared to be blood on one of the packages bodies.

I told our packer, Phyllis, that she need to put on a band aid, if she cuts herself.

She insisted she hadn't, so when I opened the package to clean off the body, before having her repack it, I took a good look at it, smelled it, and discovered it was spaghetti sauce.

After some investigating, I got Tim, my girlfriend's cousin, who I had gotten job for, to fess up that, Juan, Phyllis' boyfriend, had shown him how to warm up his lunch, using the vacuum form, overhead heater.

I explained to him that wouldn't be happening anymore, and shortly after, someone brought a used microwave from home, so it wasn't really an issue anymore.

Fast forward about 3 months later, I was working late every night preparing for the Nat's.

At around 6:30 every night, with Juan working overtime, and a high school kid, working after school, I would notice the factory would start smelling fabulous, like a good steak house.

I would glance over to the microwave, which I could see from my work area, but the light was never on.

After about 3-4 nights of driving me nuts, since I wasn't eating dinner until I picked it up on my way home, after 9 or 10 PM, I started looking around.

I spotted Juan, in another part of the factory, walking along, holding and happily munching on a vacuform machine "broiler cooked", T-bone steak.

As I was chewing him out, in typical Juan, "I got a b*llsh*t explanation for everything" fashion, blamed it on the designated cook for that night; "It was the boy, it was the boy".
  • Rotorranch likes this

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#137 Dave of '60s Lancer

Dave of '60s Lancer

    Rookie Keyboard Racer

  • Full Member
  • Pip
  • 47 posts
  • Joined: 10-November 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northwest

Posted 30 October 2018 - 11:20 AM

Post #16

 

                                                                                                                                         Lancer Co. After slot cars - The rest of the story !!!

 

A few days after I had finished my last post, I realized I had left you guys hanging.

I hadn't finished the rest of Lancer's story - at least until I left in '77.

 

When sales started to slow down John could see the writing on the wall, he experimented with

a few things, but ultimately set a new path for Lancer co.

 

John bought a huge warehouse building in a new industrial park about 2 miles from Loma Linda

Medical University, just a few miles from where lancer used to be, and moved the entire company to the new building.

 

John decided that the coming interests in crafts was Lancer's new direction.

 

When we moved there were only 3 of us left. John, Eloise the secretary, and myself.

 

For about the first year John bought a lot of wholesale craft items to resell retail, and held classes on doing these new craft

things that women were crazy for.

 

At the same time John had me creating candle casting two part molds, open face chocolate casting molds,  open face

polyester resin casting molds, and open face and two piece antique furniture plaster casting molds.

John bought an in-line high speed vacuum forming machine for more efficient forming to go along with our

single station forming machines, and when I had enough of those molds made, we went into production,

and boy did all of those sell well.

 

A few years later the university found out about us and had me make some life-size molds of human organs that 

we formed out of clear plastic and they painted them on the inside and used them as teaching aids.

That was really fun :good:. A little weird but fun none the less. Probably because it was new and different and a challenge

.

John was probably more successful financially doing the crafts than slot racing.

I made craft molds for 8 years and then moved back to the Northwest in  1977.

 

I stayed in touch with John for about a year and did a few things for the company until he could find someone to replace me,

but eventually life took over and with all the changes and trying to get settled, we lost track of each other, and

life moved on.

 

Lancer was a great job and provided me with a wonderful foundation for a nearly 40 year career along with my college education.

I stayed in plastics my entire career and never worked a day in my life.

For nearly 40 years I was paid to play, and  loved every day at my job.

You can't ask for much better than that. :sun_bespectacled:

 

Bob Hope was right when he sang "Thanks for the memories" !!


  • MSwiss, Steve Deiters, John Streisguth and 4 others like this
Dave Susan

#138 Racer36

Racer36

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,373 posts
  • Joined: 27-January 25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ontario,Canada

Posted 04 November 2018 - 12:04 PM

Found a few of my oldies and thought it might prompt some conversation.

Attached Images

  • image.jpg


#139 Racer36

Racer36

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,373 posts
  • Joined: 27-January 25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ontario,Canada

Posted 04 November 2018 - 12:05 PM

Bottom side

Attached Images

  • image.jpg


#140 Martin

Martin

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,222 posts
  • Joined: 22-February 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:US

Posted 04 November 2018 - 01:08 PM

Thank you Dave for taking the time to share your Lancer and life experiences.  I will enjoy reading your words over again.  :D  


  • Rotorranch likes this
Martin Windmill





Electric Dreams Online Shop