139 replies to this topic

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Your right Mattb

and it worked perfect.

Nothing like science and engineering .

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Post #13

 

Remembering back over 50 years in the kind of detail I seem to be able to recall is amazing to me.

I just sit and the memories come flooding back to me from pictures that form in my head.

I can see and walk through every part of the building, from the front office where our secretary Eloise Hamilton 's

office was, to John's office next door, and down the hall was the production department and so on.

 

                                                                                                      Finishing the production mold and making the base.

 

In post #12 the last thing we did there was remove the cast aluminum filled epoxy production mold from the RTV rubber cavity. The finish is like glass from polishing the lacquer primer.

Many of the cars we replicated had zeus fasteners and rivet's at body panel lines or around windshields. I had to count each rivet wherever they were and make sure the number of rivets were correct.

The magazines that reviewed our work would count each rivet and each zeus fastener and check their placement to be sure we were correct, so they could rate the car.

 

The next thing I did after counting the rivets, was to use a pencil to lay them out in the correct number and location, and lay out the placement of the zeus fasteners also. The rivets were done with a special ground

center punch and they all had to be identical by striking each time with the same force.

 

The zeus fasteners we made from stainless steel straight pins, hand filed to shape and then a small hole was drilled in each location on the production mold slightly smaller in diameter than the pin shaft and when struck

to insert the zeus fastener it would be pressed in to place. When the head of the fastener was close to the body we'd stop and turn the fastener to be placed properly and then drive it the rest of the

way down and slightly into the resin so it couldn't turn during production. Zeus fasteners have a pin location in the center so the last step was to use a different center punch (These are stainless steel not resin)

and we would center punch each zeus fastener ( The punch had to be sharpened periodically).

 

Once these 2 steps were finished, we would take the finished mold to the sander and grind away the excess resin to the shape of the bottom of the car and form the surface that was trimmed against with an

Exacto knife.

Once the shape was finished we would take a piece of thick balsa wood and trim it to a rough shape that the mold would sit on, slightly tapered on all sides.

Once that was done, we would take the pieces out to our dedicated forming machine for design, assemble the mold to the base and then form over them to see what the plastic would do.

 

O.K....A side note - In vacuum forming plastic does a "Nasty" thing called webbing.

That's where excess unused plastic folds over itself during the forming process. It usually happened at the front and rear of the GP style cars and at the corners of the 4 wheel cars.

Sometimes it could even happen between cars when a news set of cars were placed on a machine, so the machine operator had to be knowledgeable about how to set 6

cars up and not get any webbing.

Webs will crack and split a body so no webbing could be allowed to form. The last thing we did was to create 2 locking resesses so that the mold would automatically lock to the base and not move

during vacuum forming.

 

O.K. - Back to the base.. Once a test shot was made and we could see what the plastic would do, we would take pieces of rounded balsa wood blocks and place them where the webs

formed, and continue that process until no webs formed.  This usually took several hours. Once the shape of the base was finalized, with the mold still in the plastic, we would mix up a

batch of the aluminum filled epoxy resin,  paint parting agent on the bottom side of the resin slot car mold, and then fill the cavity that forms the base.

When the resin was cured, we would remove both the base casting and the production mold from the plastic. After the base casting had cured for a day, the bottom of the base was sanded flat.

 

Next post will be on finishing the base and drilling hundreds of vent holes in the production master.

 

 

 

.

[Martin]

Hey Dave, just a bit of clarification if you will. Were the rivets and Zeus fasteners placed at the plaster master stage and then a rubber mold was made which produced the multiple epoxy production tools.

If that's not the way it happened ? That would mean every epoxy production tool would have to have this exacting time consuming detailing.

Its still amazes me how all those details were accurately placed.  

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

That's exactly right Martin.

 

Every epoxy production tool was hand detailed including rivets and fasteners.

It was just part of the process that John wanted.

 

Actually, this was pretty simple work compared to what I did in the future part of my career.

 

It was the springboard to better more complicated projects at new jobs.

The challenge was always fun to see if I could go beyond what I had done in the past.

 

Still doin' that today - Life is good

[Martin]

Dave, that would mean there would be some variation in the production tooling as they were hand done. So if I had two of the same model do you think I could find variations?

[Gene/ZR1]

Dave;

 

Once the basic shape has been completed, then we start to add the surface detail including the panel lines which were always

the most time consuming.

Question; (At this point the plaster master has all the body panel lines, doors,windshield,headlights ect.)

 

Once all the details are finished on the plaster master, the master was placed on a turntable inside a spray booth, and black lacquer

primer is sprayed all over the body. This was repeated 3 or 4 times in drying intervals until the plaster was well coated.

It was allowed to dry 24 hours and then any chips, voids or other imperfections were patched with an easily sanded and shaped filler.

Once the plaster master was complete with no imperfections and given several more coats of black primer, the primer was allowed to

dry again 24 hours.

Question; (Now out of the spray booth you have 3 to 4 coats of black lacquer, plus additional coats, with that much applied lacquer it seems that all the body panel lines, doors,windshield,headlights ect. would now be filled in with the lacquer) If this is true what tool(s) was used to restore the body panel lines, doors,windshield,headlights ect. ? or did I miss something in you post #90 ?

 

thanks; g

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

 Martin

Several of you call what we did magic.

 

I have a mechanic who can diagnose and repair my car better than anyone I have ever met. He was given a talent and he perfected it and thinks it no big deal. To him it's just what he does.

 

On TV I watch people paint the most amazing pictures. I'm an artist and they still just blow me away. They were given a talent and they worked at perfecting. To them it's no big deal. They say anyone can do it.

 

I watch the PGA tour on TV and I watch the Velocity channel where people restore cars to better than new. I built many cars and restored some and their quality again just surprises me, and I tried golf in college and all I could do was slice or hook. All of them worked hard at something they loved to get as good as they are, but say anyone can do it too if their willing to work at it like they did.

 

To me, like the others I mentioned here, what I did was perfect a skill I was born with . To me it was no big deal, and even today it still isn't a big deal. There was no magic to me Martin. It was just what we did. It was so easy to do.

Yes it was tedious, but not difficult in the least.

 

It was just what I did. It was just a job.

 

Martin you asked if there were two of the same production mold could someone tell them apart?

 

It was our job to be exacting and the best at what we did...It was a requirement of the job. Everything we did was checked for exactness like guys who paint cars and the owner charges $25,000. The paint has to be beyond perfect. To the painter perfection is part of the job requirement.

 

Perfection is never attained by anyone, but the harder you try the closer you get. For some people perfection is a passionate drive to be better, and is fun to see how close you can get. I'm still trying 55 years later, and I can see ways I can still be better. It's in my DNA It's the way I approach every project I have ever done  . Without it I would be someone else. I am hardwired to be a perfectionist at everything I do. I'm just a normal guy, a nobody, who lives his life quietly like this and my friends and family think nothing of it. In fact a few of my kids are the same way and I encourage them.

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Gene/ZR1

What you mention was never a problem.

We were paid to know what we were doing, and took pride in doing it right.

 

I wasn't some hack that John hired off the street.

I was an  award winning model car builder who was published in several car magazines.

I was also an artist and showed my art and sculptings at local shows and galleries.

 

I had known John over 10 years from winning awards at his hobby shop for my model cas, and winning awards in Los Angeles

that he had taken us to several years,

and I had majored at college in mechanical design and engineering.

 

I was in college when John hired me.

John made me an offer I couldn't refuse.

 

Finally, If I was to be remembered for anything or have a legacy (Which I care nothing about) I have worked with the local homeless

for over 12 years at several locations to help their lives be better. No gift of talent in a job compares with the gift of helping others who are hurting.

That's where the true value of my life is pre-eminent for me. Investing in the lives of others who can't help themselves.

[Phil Smith]

Question; (Now out of the spray booth you have 3 to 4 coats of black lacquer, plus additional coats, with that much applied lacquer it seems that all the body panel lines, doors,windshield,headlights ect. would now be filled in with the lacquer) If this is true what tool(s) was used to restore the body panel lines, doors,windshield,headlights ect. ? or did I miss something in you post #90 ?

 

I think Eldon ask a good question. At best, all those coats of paint would soften all the details. At worst obliterate them. How did you get around that problem, Dave?

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

The same answer Phil (Dallas Racer).

We knew what we were doing. Lacquer primer doesn't soften plaster.

The coats were light and even and built up slowly.

 

I had been building model cars for years and laying down the right amount of

primer for great paint jobs and winning awards..

 

For me it was a "no brainer'.

It was simply about knowing what you were doing and always doing it right, just like any other job.

 

People are hired for their skills and knowledge. No different here and the expection's were high from the owner.

 

Our job was to please the owner at the high level of quality he demanded - nothing less.

Just like jobs today.

 

Like I said before - no magic. We knew what we were doing and did it over and over the same way for years - SIMPLE !!!

 

To me it seemed so simple to do, the whole job, but it's like people here can't grasp that.

 

I'm not avoiding this question asked twice now, it's just that the answer is so simple it seems it needs to be more complicated to understand.

 

I talked about my qualifications and my history here twice and that doesn't seem to connect to my ability to do this at the level I performed. You guy's make me laugh .

 

Lloyd was a top end model builder before Lancer Co.too. We were both good in separate model building hobbies and we both adjusted our skills to fit a new process. Not saying I was good as Lloyd, but I knew my job and did it, and I was there for 13 years, so I guess I did O.K.

 

It's like asking me how I build scratch-built model cars. I'd need to put it on YOU - TUBE to explain it. Unfortunately we had no YOU - TUBE back then,

so the answer still is and will always be because we knew how to do it right.

 

I guess maybe these questions are coming to me maybe because Lloyd was given all the credit, and I was known at best as a "Slave" in some book that was written

 

We all knew what Lloyds reputation was and I didn't care and still don't. I was having fun doing what was fun at work as a young man, and had a real life beyond Lancer.

 

Again, it was just a job - I think I'm getting tired of saying that     .

 

Snack time and then a nap - YEAH

[Gene/ZR1]

Bye

[Phil Smith]

 

 

To me it seemed so simple to do, the whole job, but it's like people here can't grasp that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dave, it's hard to grasp what you refuse to tell us.

 

But hey, some people struggle with technical explanations. We understand! Just tell us what you can manage to articulate and we'll try to fill in the blanks! 

[Maximo]

Albert Einstein (quote)

 

"iF YOU CAN'T EXPLAIN SOMETHING SIMPLY, THEN YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT WELL ENOUGH YOURSELF"

 

Amidos!

[A. J. Hoyt]

I think Dave has a lot of credibility here, even if some specifics are elusive.

 

Bill Thayer lived right down the street from me (on Hiveley in Westland, MI) and showed me (in great detail) how me made the molds for the Thayer Pro Racing Shells (HO bodies in the days of the old Brass Wars cars). He did not make the bodies I wanted to race (not enough competitive Fords) so I told him I wanted to try my hand at it and he told me what materials he used and where to get it.

 

Bill's processes were so similar to Dave's accounts of how Lancer did it that I am inclined to believe that he must have contacted Lloyd to get some advice. He started with a clay body, just eyeballing everything without templates. He painted it with the red latex and covered that in a cocoon of silicone RTV sealant. He cleaned the clay out, poured a very hard form of plaster into the "negative" and refined the body that came out including adding details like door lines, headlight seams, windshield and side windows, etc. in plaster, then covered it with a clear coat.

 

He, then, did a new negative with all the details in it with the carefully painted latex and silicone cocoon. He removed the plaster, cleaned it out and poured a two part acrylic material, which was a translucent shade of pink or red. He pulled the acrylic part out, drilled tiny little holes in the sunk down depressions (to facilitate a vacuum access to pull the body down), then polished it up for vacuum forming. Bill did not, however, use an aluminum fill in the acrylic, which would have left the molds opaque.

 

He made a vacuum table with screen ducted to an industrial shop vac. He cut the Lexan down to small square sheets that were clamped into a holder with a handle. He held the Lexan over a hot plate until it started to sag, turned on the vacuum and slapped the Lexan holder as centered as he could over the acrylic master, then cut the body out leaving a witness of the screen on the edges.

 

Mac and Lancer were making very, very nice HO bodies but the Lancer bodies were actually proportionately scale so the Ford GT MkIV was far too small and narrow for our brass scratch-built cars and the front of the Tyco Mabuchi can motors left intrusively large bumps right where the A pillars would go so finding a proportional looking GT body that would fit was tough.

 

I told Bill I wanted to make a Ford GT MkIV that was proportional but would be the full 1 5/16" width chassis per the HOPRA rules. He encouraged me to do it.

 

I started with a bare Bob Young chassis with a motor can and TCP fronts with Tyco blue sponge rears. I used non-hardening modeling clay and built up the body to the chassis wheelbase and fit it around the motor can - the A pillars were OK and proportional for the 1 5/16" wide chassis. I, then, made my first "negative".

 

I poured his suggested plaster into it, created the body detail lines and clear coated it. I created another negative but got impatient and wanted to create a few test pulls from the plaster mold so I drilled the "low spot" holes and went for it. I got about 6 or 7 pulls before the clear was worn off and degraded the "positive". It was not as smooth as a polished acrylic positive but it could be raced at Thayer's on the "Pipe Wrench" layout. I was about 15 at the time and was impatient, but don't call it ADD because it took a LOT of work.

 

It was a very competitive body at the weekly races but the A/FX based pan cars were starting to come in vogue and this body would not fit the extra intrusion into the front of the gear plate so it was no longer viable.

 

I also made a ''71 Pantera and a '72 Torino with the "fishmouth" front grill with the front overhang and rear bumper overhang. It taught me lessons on mold release that I learned were solved by multi-part molds years later and re-affirmed by Dave's accounts on this thread.

 

Interestingly, Raisin made a '53 Ford Customline V8 HO body that was beautiful (he has always had an admirable sense of proportion and artistry to his work) and pulled very nicely. I think it was a lark but we discovered it would be a legal Stock Car body under the HOPRA rules, so he painted it black, put black Autoworld number decals on it (that you could only see in the right light but it was, technically, legal with three numbers on the top and sides), crafted a two-driver interior and painted up a "greaser" guy in the driver's seat and, I think, a blonde girl in the passenger seat (the roll bar was painted into a pony tail), then he put hanging fuzzy dice behind the center of the windshield. I think he did real well with the car, if he didn't win a HOPRA race outright with it. Raisin, feel free to correct the details if I got anything wrong - it may be a case of "The older I get, the faster we were".

 

I think Raisin did a positive of my '72 Torino and made it a '73 with the modified grill and big '73 bumper (or, he did his from scratch), which was, also, a very nice pull because it didn't have the front overhang. He started painting it up in a "Dr. Pepper" paint scheme but it got sat on before it got completed but I still have it (as well as examples of my Ford GT MkIV, Pantera and '72 Torino). I'll bet Raisin still has the painted-up '53 Ford.

 

In conclusion, I find all of Dave's recollections to be fully credible based on how Bill Thayer did it (and we tried to do it).

 

It's great hearing your stories - keep them coming.

 

AJ

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Post #14

 

Thank you A.J. Hoyt

 

I wanted to finish this thread for you guys even if there is a small communication problem, that can probably be overcome.

Sometimes people don't hear what other's are saying, so everyone just has to keep trying, until they connect.

 

 

                                                                                            FINISHING THE PRODUCTION MOLD AND MAKING THE BASE.

 

In Post #13, The bottom of the production mold had been sanded to it's final shape and the base had been cast, and then sanded flat on it's bottom side so it could sit flat on the forming machine.

 

So at this point with the mold and all it's details complete and the base poured and ready to finish, the last step in the process for the mold was to drill a ton of vent holes near or in the details to be replicated sharply.

 

With a pencil I would mark all the points where the very small, #80 drill bits in a pin vise would be used to drill all the vent holes needed on the surface. There was a lot.

 

Back - drilling was the next step to drill holes with an1/8 - 3/16 drill bit from the bottom side of the mold to somewhere close to the surface where the #80 holes would be drilled.

In order to keep from drilling a hole through the surface, we would use masking tape on the drill bit to act as a depth guide for each back-drilled hole - this was time consuming,

but the experience of drilling a hole clear through the mold  is a lesson you never want to experience again. I only did it once, and it was gut wrenching.

I repaired it, but I took more time back-drilling from then on. It's even more complicated and time consuming in multi-piece production molds

.It could take more than a full day depending on the details and number of pieces to the mold.

 

Drilling the #80 holes was next and could take at least another day. It was a very slow process because the bits would break very easily from being loaded up with the resin

that would soften and clog the bit, and then it would "SNAP" off. So drilling was tedious, going in and out over and over very slowly with micro depths, sometimes having to stop

and clean the bit, and then continue until the bit would break through to the larger back-drilled hole being aimed at. Once all that drilling was done, I'd take a small round carbide

grinder about 3/16 diameter, and grind a channel in the bottom of the production mold, connecting all the holes together so that the large holes in the base that would be drilled

later would allow the vacuum to form the body with great detail.

 

The body is now done, and the base is ready to be finished.

 

I would first mark where the 3 large vent holes would be drilled that mated up to the channels, usually 3/8 diameter drill bit, and then mark where the counter-sunk hold down holes would be drilled for the

hold down counter-sink screws, so that there wouldn't be any interference between the 2. This was standard for most bases.

Then the base and the mold would both get matching catalogue numbers ground in with a Dremel - style tool and the set was ready for it's test run once screwed down to the machine, to see if there was any need for modifications,

and if a multi-piece mold was being tested, we'd check to see how well they would come out of the plastic. Usually at this point the production manager was right there as the first parts were formed and trimmed and If all

looked good, the production mold was turned over to him and he would do the final "Proving" of the mold especially if it was a multi-piece mold and determine a trimming technique that the production workers could start with,

 

At this point the production mold was done and the process complete.

.

 

Post #15 will be on trimming the plastic vacuum formed bodies and then removing them from the production mold. I'll include multi-piece production molds.

 

Any questions gladly welcome and if there is any confusion, we'll work it out .

 

I don't check here every day so please be patient.

 

And by the way. Using the black lacquer primer never created any issues of any kind. It was just a part of the plaster master building process that worked very well .

 

 

 

.

[Bill from NH]

Dave, how did you determine where to drill the #80 holes? I've often heard others say their placement is critical. Did you place them along ridges & other areas where the body surface would have an abrupt change? Or did you do something such as pre-determine where a body's high & low pressure areas would occur & place more of them in low pressure areas? Thanks, I've never made a body mold & at my age I don't intend to, even if I have done a few wood carvings.

[Martin]

Dave,you were there 13 years (64 to 77) so I'm sure you saw many changes. Can you remember when the material changed from Butyrate to Lexan. What was that like? Any reasons,push back or technical problems etc. and when was that. was it a faze out or did it happen over night. Was it the racer that was pushing for a tougher body?

Thanks again for taking the time to share your experience here.

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Bill from NH

Honestly Bill, I've never heard anything ever about "High Pressure" or "Low pressure" areas dealing with

vacuum forming until I read your post.

 

I learned about vacuum hole placement from Lloyd when he was training me, then after awhile it just

became second nature by the experience of watching the plastic form every time we "Proofed" a new mold before

we put it in production. After a while it was easy to decide where the "venting" was needed.

 

Bill I hope that answers your question .

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Martin that's a very good question and very challenging to answer.

 

What I do remember was that Lexan didn't take the place of butyrate,

Lexan was added to our line of plastics we used for the outlaw bodies only,

and that was probably for about a year to a year and a half at the hobby peak

before things started to slow down.

Outlaw racing came right at the end of the hobby.

 

As I remember, butyrate was replaced with another plastic that was recommended

by the distributor who we bought our plastic from, but I cannot remember the name of that plastic.

 

Lexan was only used for the outlaw bodies and took some time for us to learn how to form it

properly and eventually go to a thinner Lexan that not only helped in forming the plastic better

but in the end made the bodies lighter.

 

We also had to change the way we made the molds by adding ribs on both sides and a Higher rear spoiler

for strength and ridgedity.

 

I think it was mostly the professional racers and those wanting to be in the "outlaw" class that requested these bodies.

Actually I don't think we were the first to make these out of Lexan, but once they were on the market we had a lot of requests

as I remember.

 

50 +++ years ago so there are some details just not there as clear as others.

 

I hope that helped answer your question Martin

[Bill from NH]

Thanks Dave, for your answer on vent hole placement. Bodies have both high & low pressure areas when run on a slot car. i didn't know but what they did on the body molds too. Life was a lot simpler 50 yrs. ago.   The first thin lexan body I recall having was a Russkit Eagle F1 bought before the summer of '69.

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

                                                                                  SIDE NOTES !!

 

I was sent a link to some earlier posts, around 2011 in a thread about Lloyd Asbury..

 

John and Lloyd were never on the roof of Lancer with guns during the Watts riots. Watts was over 60 miles away

and the riots were only in the immediate Watts area. I watched it on T.V. - It was crazy.

 

When the eventual slow down of the hobby took place, the cases of bodies that never sold were not taken to the dump.

 

We had a young man working there hired out of high school named Mike Jewitt, who among other things, ran a very loud

plastic grinder, grinding all the plastic scrap that all the machines produced every day. We eventually bought a larger machine

so Mike could keep up when a second shift was added to keep up with the demand for bodies.

 

When the slow down came there wasn't scrap to grind, but there were plenty of bodies, and that's how Mike spent his days for nearly a month.

John was sensitive to the changes taking place and how it affected the employees and tried to find work for people as long as he could.

 

John had a guy who bought all the scrap ground up plastic and knew how to re-use it for injection molded products.

[MattD]

Dave, one thing not mentioned has been failure rate.   What percent of bodies had to be tossed in the grinder for quality issues.   I assume not every pull was perfect.  

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Mattb
Back in the day production workers trimming the bodies were paid by the piece,,,known as piece work. I don't
think that kind of pay style even exists here anymore in the U.S., but was fairly common 50 or more years ago.
 
The scrap rate on trimmed bodies was pretty low because scraping a body usually meant someone slipped
and cut themselves with a very sharp Exacto blade in their knife handle and that results in a lot of "Leakage" .
I did production work trimming bodies for 6 months so I had first hand experience - OUCH !!
 
People who were trying out for a job went through a testing and training program, and not everyone qualified - we had a large supply of band aids .

[MattD]

Dave, I was actually referring to the actual body pulls.   Not after trimming.   Were there no failures with the vac process?

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Hi matt

We had a pretty good production process. Usually the only bodies we lost were when the molds were being laid out for production

and several cycles were run to check the set-up to make sure the parts all formed properly.

The guys running the machines were pretty good at knowing how to arrange the molds so that the webbing was kept to a minimum.

During production not many were lost unless someone slipped with an Exacto knife during trimming the bodies.

 

Everyone was paid piece work not wages so the less loss the more money they made.

 

Don't ask how much the pay was because I don't remember.