139 replies to this topic

[Martin]

Most the great prolific artists throughout history had people that help them. Would I like to hear from a guy that worked by the side of  Michelangelo (absolutely) I am sure he could not have done all the work it took to make all of his master pieces by himself.

By the way even Michelangelo was an apprentice at one time. So I for one would still like to hear from David Susan,who was there and was hands on with one of the great slot car masters. Lloyd Asbury.

I for one welcome a view into the past form all that want to contribute here. Workers, helpers. slaves, minions, apprentices. I do not care what they are labeled after the fact. There were there and I want to know anything about what it took to make these great products we collect today.   

 

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Martin my friend I appreciate your enthusiasm .

 

When I was a kid, nearly 70 years ago we studied in grade school the history of Christopher Columbus.

When my kids grew old enough to do the same in grade school, they brought home their books to do a report after reading about Christopher Columbus.

Parents were allowed to help.

 

When I was done reading their assignment in their history book, I didn't recognize who was being written about.

 

Agendas, political correctness, political views, religious views, wanting a new view on history that was more pleasing to the masses or to the writer...Who knows

 

History is changed, and is no longer history. There is no one around to tell the difference, so lies become history and life goes on..Kinda like here!!

 

It wasn't that long ago a group of people got together and decided to promote the idea that Hitler never existed and world war ll never happened.

Their agenda made it nearly all the way to congress but was stopped dead in it's tracks, for obvious reasons. Truth won out over their lies.

 

But that doesn't always happen Martin.

Their are a lot of people who enjoy the flamboyancy and colorfulness of a lie. Or they like to insert themselves into the story as I was accused of, and makes a more grandious and important person of themselves.

Or they may even take what they heard from someone close to them and attach it to themselves and create a whole persona that people look up to because ...after all he was my this or that to me.

 

I have had posts sent to me by people here of previous posts from 7 or 8 years ago, as well as excerpts from a book that mentions me from a person many of you here consider a well known writer.

 

Remember the story I just told of Christopher Columbus?? Well, history repeats itself.

 

No one could ever unravel the confluence of made up stories that plague the history of this hobby in his book or in the hobby in general. I'm sure his intentions were honorable but his history on Lancer Co. is in many cases just a fairy tale. In many cases he didn't even come close. So much for being a well known and educated expert. Not a criticism. Just the truth. When a person writes a book that isn't fiction they should have their facts straight and done their research better.

 

But I do think he probably did his best with lies and truth so tightly wound together that , now it would be impossible to tell the difference..

Now it's just one persons word against someone else's and no way to prove either one.

There's nothing I could add that wouldn't be contested by someone or some group of people, like has already happened. It would be pointless and a bad waste of my busy time to even try .

So do you continue throwing stones or forget it.

Time will tell .

 

Like the guy in the Muppet Movie said, "Peoples is peoples" . Go figure !!!

 

Pontius Pilate interrogated Jesus and asked Him what was the truth??

Jesus said "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life. Anyone who comes to me will be with the Father GOD for eternity. 

 

I think this is the only truth anyone can honestly believe and take to the bank .

[Ecurie Martini]

The first high school reunion that I attended was the 40th - 25 years ago.  These events are held every 5 years and I just returned from the 65th.  One of the things that I have noted, in addition to the inevitable thinning of the ranks, is that I have struck up friendships with people I barely knew at school while some connections, strong then, have weakened.  In some cases previously unknown common ground is discovered and in others, long hidden enmities surface.  When discussing "the old days" it becomes obvious that the past is seen through filters of time and experience.  The parable of 5 blind men describing an elephant comes to mind.

 

At my stage of life (do the arithmetic if you wish) I have come to regard personal past as something that is valuable but also fragile and shifting, not cast in stone like documented and corroborated history.

 

That said, and despite the fact that, as a devoted "rivet counter" my interest in vacuum formed bodies is marginal*, I have found the discussion of the approach and methods very interesting and choose to ignore the (not surprising) time related differences in accounts.

 

EM

 

*Full disclosure - I have seen models, based on vacuum formed shell, that are outstanding when the method suits the objective.

[Martin]

There is no debate that you were there at Lancer but I think it best not to get off in the weeds here. My personal interest is the craft and technique of the body making process. If David or any body else knows details on the process of mold making and vac-u-forming. That's what I want to read about. How the music was made.Lancer took the vac body to a level unseen before them. I want to read and say " I did not know that's the way it was done" 

My hope is this is a respectful place where it is comfortable to share knowledge and not be criticized for doing so.  

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Post #10

 

Thank you Martin.                                

I think if one person benefits from this thread I have done my job here.

 

                                                                                                                     BEGINNING A MASTER !!!

 

When a project was brought to me from John Brunson the owner, Lloyd wasn't part of this process, , I was given any means at

my disposal to create the master.

 

I think John had a subscription to every auto publication at the time.

He would come into my work room with a arm load of magazines to go over with me and we'd

talk over the project a bit, and after a while we had kind of a routine understanding of how most

things would be done.

At times there wouldn't be enough photo coverage of a car to suit John, and he's have me go

to the library for further research.

 

Once I had enough pictures of the project, I would begin sketching out a rough side view and top

view of the body on graph paper to get the art work in scale.

 

Even before Lancer Co. I was an accomplished

artist who had my work, both art and sculpting's in local shows and galleries, as well as being a published award winning

model car builder with model cars pictured inside as well as on magazine covers; SEE Rod &Custom magazine - June 1962,

Car Craft magazine - May 1962, and a one time only published AMT Model Car Handbook 1962....(see Ebay - there's copies there for sale periodically.

There collector's items now. I guess that officially makes me ancient ) . My model is on

the cover and featured inside, and Chosen as one of the top 10 models in the U.S that year by Car craft and

Rod & Custom magazine editors. I also had 2 years of college where I majored in mechanical engineering design and drawing.

I wanted to design sky scrapers for a living at the time. I was ambitious !!!

But I gave up one dream to follow another. I never looked back, and life became better than I could have ever imagined.

I went on to have a very successful engineering career in Oregon. There was life after Lancer Co. I have been retired now for 15 years.

I retired at 59.

I'm still quite busy creating my own artwork  and using all those wonderful engineering classes I took in college for all my personal projects.

Is life good??? NO... AT 75 IT'S GREAT , I have been blessed !!!

 

 

After a year of training by Lloyd to make the masters, I was building masters at Lloyds level of skill.

 

Once John had approved my design work, Lloyd didn't do any of this, I went ahead and did a final finished set of working

drawings that I could scale the car from with all the details to be included.

The block of plaster I would use to carve the master from I had already poured into a mold, de-molded, and set aside to let the moisture evaporate for

a week and then heat cured in a designated oven for another day until it was fully cured.

 

The process to check it being moisture free was to set the block of plaster on a piece of steel to see if any moisture formed on the cold steel.

 

Once the plaster was fully cured I would go into the machine shop, where Milt Gibbs, our resident machinist was, and have him fly cut the plaster block to size

and machine a 1/4 in wide slot in the bottom about 4 inches long for a for a locating devise we could slide in.

(We used a 1/4 inch square machining tool blank that machinists use to form a cutting tool into for lathe work).

We also had one large piece of 2 inch thick phenolic block 12 inches square that had a 1/4 inch wide slot machined in it by Milt

to locate the plaster block for repeatability and exactness, so we could remove the master at any point in construction and then replace it exactly where it had been removed.

 

We also had a smaller piece of phenolic with a 1/4 inch slot in it. This was used to lay on it's side on the other larger phenolic block so we could use

our height gauge with a pencil in it to do the precise layout work that would give me the graph lines that matched the graph paper used for the body

layout and be the exact same spacing and location.

Once I had charted the block of plaster, I returned to my master drawings and traced over them using tracing paper, and then with carbon transfer paper, I would

transfer the designs ( There were 2 designs - one from the side and one from the top) to the charted block of plaster after center lines had been established on the

block of plaster for the reference base line that the design was started from. Once all of this was done, the block of dental plaster was ready for the design

to be carved into it.

 

We used coarse rasps to begin the roughing in process. We did only one side at a time, working to the center line on the top of the block.

Once the 1/2 shape of the master was completed using finer files and sandpaper, I would begin making templates at chosen points along the length of the body

to be transferred to the other side at the exact same location.

The templates were made by starting with non-hardening modeling clay. I'd roll a piece of clay into a cylinder like rolling bread dough, into a length of about 2 inches.

I would then wrap the clay cylinder around the plaster shape at a given location, and depending on body style - GP or 4 wheel, I would the take an Exacto knife and cut through the cylinder gently

to form a flat surface on the clay, outlining the car body, and cutting the cylinder into 2 pieces. Clay doesn't stick tightly to plaster because of the powdery surface, so it was easy to remove the 2 pieces of clay that were left after splitting the one piece into 2 pieces. I would choose one piece to keep and return the other piece back to the lump it came from.

 

 

I had sheets of .040 white styrene plastic that I would cut into template size pieces. I would take the piece of clay with a flat side on it created by cutting through it with the

Exacto knife and lay it flat against one of the template blanks of styrene plastic. Next, I would lay the template on a large scrap piece of disposable paper, like newspaper,

and with a large spray can of black lacquer primer, I would spray the entire piece including the clay, to get an outline of the clay template to be transferred to the sheet of styrene plastic.

The primer dried almost instantly, so there was very little wait time to remove the clay from the styrene.

This step would be repeated many times, 10-15, depending on the style of car being replicated. Each template was numbered and a corresponding number was put on the

 plaster at that location. Once all were done, they were set aside to dry for a short while. Like I said before, lacquer primer dries quickly.

The last step was to very carefully trim out each template, removing everything that was primered, leaving a female template to be used on the other side for the matching shape.

 

Next post to come........

 

Finishing the plaster master, getting it ready for the RTV silicone rubber mold, and casting the master, and the finishing work, then making the base it sat on during forming.

 

Yeah...it was complicated.  But no one made um like Lancer.

[Maximo]

Dave,

 

I have always been curious as to how molds are started. What material are used to start the process? Are drawings used?

 

What are the final materials used when six molds are then bolted down and bodies are pulled after the vacuum process?

 

Some bodies have great details and I am curious how those details are incorporated into the mold making process?

 

Sorry for all of these intrusive questions but it all seems to be a magic process!

 

Thanks!

 

maximo

[MattD]

Great info, but I will have to read it slow to understand just how it all comes together.    Nice desription of the process.

 

mb

[Martin]

I  can relate to this process and will read two or three times to make sure it sinks in. 

Thanks so much for taking the time to help explain the magic. Was it a special blaster,as in the lost wax investment molds that get oven baked to remove the wax prior to filling with metal.?

I always thought the masters were made in a bigger scale ( like 1/12th scale ?} and then pantagraphed to the smaller scales.  1/24, 1/32, and HO. How did you get to smaller scales?

So glad you were not put off, Great stuff

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Martin - You ask good questions .

 

The "Magic" several of you mentioned was just the result of the right people with the right skills all coming together to create the things we did at the right time.

Everyone is gifted with skills and talents and those of us who created the masters just followed our hearts and passions and made the right choices to be

where we were, doing what we did.

 

55 years ago it was no big deal. We were all just having fun enjoying life, glad we could do something we loved. It was the early 60's and life was simple and it was sunny Southern California

and we had the Beach Boys, the Beatles had crossed the ocean to be on The Ed Sullivan Show, Wolfman Jack, cruising in our hot rods on Friday and Saturday nights, drinking beer at the "Green Onion" pub listening to Hey Jude over and over on the Juke box, and we were an hour from the beach, and some of us were screaming all over on our motorcycles in our shorts and sandals - No shirt or helmets, and black as a berry from the sun - EEEHAH.

 

How could you even script a life like that today. It was "NIRVANA" and we loved it. We were young, crazy and invincible.

 

Anyway, (I got side tracked . Can you tell I love life? ) John bought a new Deckel panagraph from Germany and had it shipped to us. We tried the process you mentioned but it nearly doubled the time

to make a master pattern and the detail wasn't nearly as crisp as we wanted. So that $10,000 machine sat there for as long as I can remember and just gathered dust .

 

So the master patterns continued to be produced in the scale they represented - from 1/24 to H.O. scale in the same process mentioned in my last post.

 

The plaster we used was a special "dental plaster" that John got from his dentist brother. His brother was also the one we got all the dull dentistry tools from that we ground

to shape for our carving and shaping tools. They were all stainless steel and worked wonderfully on the plaster they were meant for.

 

More to come later about the pattern making process .

[Martin]

Great stuff, I fell in love with that life style also. I too had fast motorcycles and rode like I was invincible. We are lucky to survive those wild times. Makes us appreciate the life we have today even more, right.

 

As soon as you mentioned dental plaster all those memories were front and center. The dental process is the lost wax processes that I am familiar with.  I have a  good friend that had a lost wax foundry. He made rubber molds from a variety of rubbers, from 2 part silicon to vulcanized.  A lot of parallels to what you were doing I bet, it was just was not about the cars that I loved.

 

I always wanted a Pantagraph or I did. Now of course it all about Cad files CNCs and 3D printing. I am involved with that but I am happiest with the tools I have had for forty years. This is why I am excited to hear about what you were doing at Lancer. Its an old hand craft that will be forgotten at some point I suppose. My plan is to keep it alive and pass it on. You can not replace the feel as you shape the materials.

 

Keep it coming David. This is your platform

[Ecurie Martini]

I have some molds around made by an older process.  Before silicon RTV was widely available, we used latex.  A coat of the thick liquid was painted on, allowed to dry and a second coat and a layer of cheesecloth applied and repeat 3 or 4 times as I recall.  This mold was then used to lay up fiberglass bodies.

 

There was another process, used as I recall by a company called Detail Models - injection blow molding.  In this process, a blob of liquid plastic is injected into a female mold and then "blown up" by injecting air to force the plastic out to the inside of the mold.  (Believe this is how most plastic bottles are made)  Advantage - the process could reproduce very sharp detail similar to conventional injection molding - problem - The machinery is very expensive as is the mold making process (This was before the days of wide use of EDM) and that probably limited its application. I wonder if Lancer ever looked at this.

 

EM

[Martin]

Looking forward to Davids answer to the  Detail Models - injection blow molding question. I know that working on a negative surface is a real pain. All the tools have to match the inside radius. I have a set of Rifler files but try to avoid them at all cost.

 

I do applaud DMs  attempt to try a different method. I have a couple of there bodies and I love the under cuts they can achieve. But unless you want to build a ship(chassis) in a bottle you have to cut the bottom off anyway.

 

Details are super sharp but are not as clear for what ever reason.

 

Buy the way, was the latex you used called Black Tuffy ?

[Ecurie Martini]

 

Buy the way, was the latex you used called Black Tuffy ?

 

No - it was thick, cream colored emulsion that I found at a craft shop.

 

EM

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Thanks guys for all the comments .

 

I'm not sure what other manufacturers were doing with blow molding and rubber casting mediums,

but at Lancer Co. all we did was vacuum forming, and we just used Dow Corning RTV Silicones - NO LATEX.

or any other rubber-like casting materials.

 

Hope you all have a good day

Dave

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Post #11

 

                                                                                                                    Finishing the plaster master and casting the silicone mold.

 

Once the first side of the plaster master is finished to a satisfactory shape, the templates are used to complete the other side.

 

Once the basic shape has been completed, then we start to add the surface detail including the panel lines which were always

the most time consuming.

If the project is to be a multi-piece production mold, then this is the time where we decide which parting lines will be used for the

separation lines between each piece, so they can be hidden.

 

Once all the details are finished on the plaster master, the master was placed on a turntable inside a spray booth, and black lacquer

primer is sprayed all over the body. This was repeated 3 or 4 times in drying intervals until the plaster was well coated.

It was allowed to dry 24 hours and then any chips, voids or other imperfections were patched with an easily sanded and shaped filler.

Once the plaster master was complete with no imperfections and given several more coats of black primer, the primer was allowed to

dry again 24 hours.

Once the drying of the plaster was complete, polishing of the black lacquer began using a fine polishing wheel and a red very fine

polishing compound or rouge.

Once the polishing was complete and shined like a new penny, a box was constructed out of sheet styrene plastic, and the plaster

master was attached inside the box.

Next, we would get out the 5 pound can of Dow Corning RTV "Red" silicone and the hardener, pour the silicone into a large glass measuring cup

to a pre-determined amount and then place it under a large bell jar on the base, after mixing in the hardener, and begin the process of evacuating the air

from the silicone.

 Then using an acid brush, I would begin painting a surface coat of the silicone rubber on the plaster master, and once done, pour the

remaining silicone rubber over the plaster master until the box was slightly over-full, then place a flat plate of 1/4 inch thick aluminum on top.

This was done to form a flat surface on the rubber so when turned over after the plaster master was removed, there would be a perfectly flat surface for the

rubber mold to sit on with no distortions while casting the resin production master.

 

The rubber mold was then set aside for several days to cure, before the final casting began of the aluminum filled epoxy resin. If it wasn't

allowed to cure it would off-gas air bubbles into the resin and form on the surface of the cast pattern, ruining the casting.

 

 

                                                                                                   Next post: Casting the production mold..

[Martin]

I like all the process details, Are you working on several car designs at once or one at a time? Is there one guy that paints all the pastern makers finish masters or does the pattern maker take his own work through all the steps himself?

At what point do you decide this is a 2 part mold, are there 3 part molds? I have only seen 2 part. How is that generated?

It would be great if  there where pics of the inside of the shop .Just to get more of a feel for the space you were all working in.  Was there separate rooms for every part of the process or one big room?  

Thanks as always for your insight.

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Martin my friend,

What we did at Lancer Co. was a life time ago. We were just a group of nobodies making our way in life

and having fun doing it.

I am still happy to be a nobody enjoying life more than ever before. A quiet peaceful life with no drama or deviseveness.

 

When I left Lancer Co. I was blessed to do much greater things than I ever did at Lancer. Lancer was just the beginning

of a career no one could write.

 

Many call Oregon God's country and I found it to be true.

Most don't like to hear what I'm going to say so I'll keep it short as not to overly offend you or anyone reading this.

 

I found a God that was real and had been blessing me all my life and still does far beyond anything I could ever do to deserve

 

It's called GRACE

 

It means undeserved love. In spite of my sins He proved to me personally that He loved me in a way I

still don't understand - A love that can break a man's heart. He is beautiful beyond words, and His kindness

is beyond my ability to comprehend.

 

I say all this because I don't want anyone to give me credit for the talent that was given to me by Him.

He did wonderful things through my hands, and the skill was all His given as a gift to me to enjoy and to

bless others like yourself. I was merely the vehicle by which all this came through.

 

If anyone deserves credit for all we did it's GOD Himself

 

How he's blessed my life goes beyond a mortal man's words.

 

 

 

[Bill from NH]

Dave, truer words have never been spoken.

[Martin]

I am happy for you, David. 

[MattD]

Dave, I'm happy you have such peace in your life.   I wish that for  everybody.   This is probably also  a good way to get off track and get this thread shut down. 

 

  I am really enjoying the details you are giving of the process from start to finish.    It seems obvious to me that you were there thru every step of production and are providing us  with such detail that you must have done more than just swept floors!!!!!

 

thanks  

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Well Mattb,

I did sweep the floor in my room that I worked in but not as a janitor or a "Slave"  .

 

Each of the pattern makers had our own small enclosed work room and a work bench that we sat at to create our assigned project.

 

I'll explain more when I post more details on creating a master pattern.

[Martin]

David looking forward to more details on creating a master pattern.

 

 Do you remember which bodies and scales you worked on and which ones were favorites and which ones were the most challenging ?.

 

I know you mentioned the Gurney/Westlake eagle, which by the way is one of my favorites,

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

Good questions again Martin.

Looking back 55 years, my focus during the day at Lance Co. was more on the process and techniques than the individual projects I worked on.

It's the way my brain works and has always worked.

 

The only project I remember like I said was the Gurney/Westlake eagle because of the connection I had with Dan Gurney.

 

As far as scales go I probably worked on all three - 1/24, 1/32 and H.O.

 

I have a brain that loves to remember certain thing even further back than Lancer, but other things not so much. Always been that way.

[Dave of '60s Lancer]

.Post #12

 

                                                                                                                               Casting the production mold.

 

John the owner was a very organized person. The company was arranged to flow very nicely in all departments.

The area where I worked was no exception. John worked with the builder and helped design the floor plan.

The area where I worked was laid out nicely. There were 4 rooms built back to back along one wall, with all 4 doors

 opening to a common walk way and a common long work bench where we could mix the RTV rubber, and use the

bell jar for vacuuming. We could also mix the casting resin, use the drill press or other tools or pieces of

equipment placed there for us.

 

Once the rubber mold was cured,(Remember, we cast that in post11) it was placed in our oven on a low temperature, to get it just warm enough so that

the aluminum filled epoxy resin would flow nicely into and around all the details.

 

While the rubber was warming we'd mix the resin and use the bell jar to evacuate all the air and be ready to pour when the rubber was warm enough.

With the rubber warm and the epoxy ready to cast, we would use an acid brush (Acid brushes are used by welders to apply pastes to metal to make the welding stick flow better)

to paint in a thin layer of epoxy while using an air nozzle to help get the epoxy into details so there would be no holes or voids

to fill in later. Once the coating was done we'd slowly pour in the remaining amount of epoxy about 18 inches away so if there were any remaining air bubbles from

mixing, they would POP before they reached the rubber mold cavity. We would over-fill the cavity slightly so that we could sand the bottom of the  epoxy casting flat when cured.

 

Now, if it was a multi-piece production casting, there were aligning dimples put into the first piece to lock the parts together during forming.  Then once the rubber was

warmed in the oven, we'd use modeling clay sometimes to block off a portion of the inside of the cavity

so there wasn't so much to be machined away or removed by hand with grinders and files

Once the first piece of cast resin was finished, the surface to be cast against for the next piece was coated with a parting agent to keep the new cast resin from sticking to

the first cast piece. Then the first piece was inserted back into the rubber cavity, warmed in the oven just slightly , and then the same process with the

acid brush was repeated coating the rubber surface remaining and the machined surface of the resin piece that was reinserted into the cavity.

After the resin had set up, the casting was removed.

 

What was really amazing is we never had problems with the liquid resin creeping underneath the first casting - at least I didn't .

 

Anyway it was fun to remove the casting whether 1 piece or more to see how well I did. The multi-piece were especially fun to remove and POP apart to see

how well it came out and then play with them to see how well the parts fit together and how well they locked in place - boys have to play.

 

 

                                                                                         My next post will be on detail finishing and making the base to sit on while forming the slot bodies.

[MattD]

Do you think warming the mold with  the first part of the buck in it was the key to not having resin flow between part 1 of the buck and the rubber mold?

 

Did the heat maybe make the resin expand a little more than the rubber and guarantee a really tight fit that sealed out newly poured resin?

 

/