3573 replies to this topic

[Jairus]

Very interesting! I suggested this a while back as a way to possibly run falcon motors in an all vintage class. Example, stuffing a Falcon inside a hollowed out Mubuchi motor and endbell so that the chassis/motor looked vintage at first glance.

Nice to know that it is not "EASY" before starting on one myself...

Good work tho John!

[havlicek]

Thanks Jairus No, it isn't easy but it's "do-able" and yes...this could just as well be done with Mabuchis as an alternative to sticking D-motor magnets in there. The Mabuchi magnets are so poor that you almost have to do something with them. A guy like you could do this without any problems at all...other than just having the time set aside. Since I've already done them with the Strapnuts and they work great...I'll probably do a #28 or a #27 for this one to start.

-john

[Prof. Fate]

Hi

So, in essence you did "back to the future"!

I mean, we got C cans because of "can in a can" shims for 16ds being reworked to just be the can.

Jairus, I do not remember your suggestion of the "in a can" retro. Seems to me, though, that if you have a vintage C can or D can one can just use modern pro slot or similar C can or D can innards as well.

Fate

[Alchemist]

really nice work John!

Have you completed the "trimming"? I always enjoy the photos John!

Thanks for sharing - your projects are becoming quite "radical" - very KOOL!

Ernie

[Victor Poulin]

Ok Ernie I finally got a couple pics of the reworked Hawk endbell for you.

This is the endbell as it comes stock


What I do is start by removing all the stock hardware. With a razor blade, or hobby knife, cut off the stock location tabs for the brush hoods. I like to use Mura hardware, but you could pretty much use what ever you like. Using the stock two screw holes on the top of the endbell to locate the new hardware for proper spacing, set the new backing plates and brush hoods in place and loosly screw in each side. Now it's just a matter of making sure everything is straght and even, and drilling new bottom holes in the endbell, as the stock holes are offset, and the Muras are straght up and down. Once the new hardware is mounted it's time to start test fitting depending on what your planing to use for an arm. If your planing on using a American arm, you will need to do some grinding from the inside of the new endbell, to allow for the bigger dia com. I use a small diamond bit on the drumel and it only takes a little on each side. Its just a matter of test fitting as you go using an old arm with the same dia com.
Once this is done, it's just a matter of aligning and diamond honing the new brush hoods, and your ready to go.

Heres the finished product. Sorry the pic is a little funky , but you get the idea.



Heres a better pic showing the finished product.



Its really very easy to do, and once you've done a couple it only takes a few minutes to do one.
JK now sells a replacement endbell for use with an American arm for $7.95. I still prefer to do it this way, as the Mura hardware is much better quality, plus it looks soooo cool

[Victor Poulin]

John,
Thats pretty darn cool !! Looks like a great deal of work, but then again, if it were easy, it wouldnt be as much fun right?

I' cant wait to hear how it runs !!

Vic

[Alchemist]

HI Vic,

Really nice work! Thank you very much for taking the time to post the photos and explaining your procedure to me. I really appreciate it.

Just wish there was a way to hear the motor run on power - that would be very KOOL!

Thanks for your time Vic!

Ernie

[Victor Poulin]

HI Vic,

Really nice work! Thank you very much for taking the time to post the photos and explaining your procedure to me. I really appreciate it.

Just wish there was a way to hear the motor run on power - that would be very KOOL!

Thanks for your time Vic!

Ernie

No problem Ernie, more than happy to help and show what can be done with a little time and effort .
On that motor, I used a Proslot 38deg X-12 arm. It runs very strong and draws 2.8 amps@6volts
I used SBF-II brushes and Champ light springs. It also seem to run nice and cool.
I'm working on a new one now that I'm trying to stuff a BOW Hornet arm in. Should be interesting lol.

Vic

[havlicek]

Cool work on the endbell Vic!...funny how JUMBO the Mura hardware looks on the little guy

I did a little testing on the C can with the neos with some interesting results. First off, I used a stack from one of the minimotors (I have a bunch of them here and didn't want to just throw them out. I swapped the shaft and com and did a #26 wind. These arms have a very wide/full crown or "face", leaving a small space between the poles:


Not the neatest one I've done , but it runs VERY strong (like a #26 should) and doesn't get too warm in the setup at all. Here's the thing, I have a Mura setup with Red Dots and was able to test the arm in both the C-can with Red Dots and then swap the arm/endbell into the can with the neos without removing the arm from the end bell. I figured that would be a decent test of JUST the magnets as evertything else remained the same. What's interesting here is that the Red Dots seemed to produce slightly more RPM's but the Neos spun up and down way faster and the motor seemed to have a lot more "jump"as well as drawing significantly more current (!)...I'm thinking more torque. (keeping in mind that more current at the same voltage means more watts or power)

So, the difference isn't like ..."WOW, this is a whole 'nuther animal!!!", more like the motor seems tuned more towards RPMs with ceramics and more towards torque with the Neos...at least with this particular arm. Neither can seems like heat would cause problems and this is a pretty stout arm. The other kinda neat thing is that the mini motors are a good source for stacks, and they seem to work fine...even if they are a little weird.

-john

[Alchemist]

Real neat John!

As for the crown/face being wide - would there be a concern if you needed to "machine" the face of each pole to make it more narrow, to wrap the wire more easily?

Ernie

[havlicek]

Hi Ernie,

You know, modern arms often have a very narrow face and I think the lower mass is supposed to help them spin-up and down faster or something (?). The typical Mabuchi type stacks had a "medium" size and so did the later Muras and Champions. I've seen this type wide crown or face on lots of cheaper motors and some oddballs, but it's not like they're difficult to wind. It only looks like it would be a problem, but really isn't much more bother. I figure if a machine can do it, then a person should be able to.

would there be a concern if you needed to "machine" the face of each pole to make it more narrow, to wrap the wire more easily?

It would be a pretty easy thing to open them up, although you'd have to make sure you weren't causing an imbalance. The opposite could apply too...you could open them up and sort of "pre-balance" the arm by removing slightly more from the side that seemed heavy. In the end, I just wanted to see how the arm worked "as-is" because different stuff is intriguing to me. I figured it would probably work OK as the mini motors work surprisingly well considering the way they're assembled...and it did! So if you want to do some rewinding, don't toss those mini motors...there's some good stuff in there

-john

PS...yours and some other motors went out today.

[Victor Poulin]

Hey John,
I found your results on the magnets really interesting. I remember Monty telling me a while back, that stronger mags didnt always make for a faster motor depending on the arm. He had done some testing on different mags using the same arm and set up. I dont remember what the motor was, but I do remember him telling me that in this case, this motor ran better with weeker mags. I think as I recall, it was a 16-D motor using a stock low timed arm. I also remember him telling me that it pays to experiment and test

I would have thought that the Neos would have made a really OMG difference, but it seems not in this case. I guess it all depends on how you look at it. You said it spun up quicker , and that would = more tork. So if you were using this motor on a twisty short track, this could be better. On a large hill climb, maybe not so good.

Now I suppose could try this experiment using a different set up, or arm, and prob get totally different results.

Any who, Its a cool little project, and thanks for posting the results.

Vic

[Alchemist]

I excited to receive the motor John!

Thank you aplenty!

Ernie

[havlicek]

I would have thought that the Neos would have made a really OMG difference

Hi Vic. Well, the difference between the neos and a good set of ceramics like the Red Dots isn't that huge, I think it's like 5% or so...maybe a tiny bit more. There's also the possibility that stronger springs could have worked to the advantage of the neos, but I wanted to keep everything the same except for the magnet change. I would expect that even a hotter arm would show similar results, as I've done some #25 and even a couple of #24 arms in the Mura can with the Red Dots and they run like the dickens. Maybe those kinds of arms might run a little cooler with the neos...but then again, you have to start wondering about how the heat will affect the magnets too.

I guess it all depends on how you look at it. You said it spun up quicker , and that would = more tork. So if you were using this motor on a twisty short track, this could be better. On a large hill climb, maybe not so good.

Sure thing, the extra current draw of the setup with the neos (VxA=W) indicates that there should be some more power there (I think). Since the two weigh very close to the same, it could very well be that the right gearing would give an advantage to the neos even though the ceramics seem to spin a little higher. Something similar can happen with springs and a motor can rev higher with "lights", but draw more current with mediums or heavies and run a little warmer...although not always.

Now I suppose could try this experiment using a different set up, or arm, and prob get totally different results.

Yep and looking at how many variables you're juggling with this stuff only shows what kind of work racers put in to figure out the "right" combination for a car and a track. Besides all the many motor variables, there's gearing, tire choices, chassis type and weight, body, other running gear like axles/bushings/bearings...even stuff like pickups and braid. Sounds like a full time job!

Any who, Its a cool little project, and thanks for posting the results.

No problem Vic. If anything I think this all shows that the neos can be part of some cool projects (I love them for the strapnut motors...but there are also some thin ceramics that work pretty well for those), but they're not necessarily going to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. I'd someday like to do some screwing-around with cobalts and see what's what with all that. I've seen some pretty crazy motors with those things that seem like they should vaporize but are able to be raced hard. On the other hand, I've done some oldstyle bigwire arms in Mura setups that are pretty crazy. The last one was a #24 in a B motor that's freakin' scarey. I still have it here and I like to give it a spin once in a while just to trip some circuit breakers for fun. The torque AND RPMs of that motor with the old B-motor ceramics is (even for such a heavy motor) ridiculous.

-john

[Victor Poulin]

John,
You brought up a good point that I had'nt even given any thought to. Depending on the arm, and how it's set up, heat could be a major factor with Neos. From what I understand, the type of zappers we have, will not work with Neos. I just got some of the new JK neos for the Hawk set ups that I cant wait to play with lol. I will be interesting to see just what difference they make. The first thing I want to do , is take a gauss reading on stock mags, as well as the new Neos, just to see the difference. The last time I took a gauss on the stock Hawk mags, I was getting around 750-800 after zapping. Pretty strong little magnets !! I,ll keep you posted on the new Neos, and let you know as soon as I get a chance.

Vic

[havlicek]

Hi Vic,

You brought up a good point that I had'nt even given any thought to. Depending on the arm, and how it's set up, heat could be a major factor with Neos

Also related to heat, diffrerent tracks run these things at different voltages and depending on how "clean" the power is...even the same voltage at two different tracks could cause different performance and heat of the same motor. I always (for some stupid reason) assume nominal 12V, but I realize that some tracks are running over 13V and that can cause all kinds of problems with heat and motor life in general...not just the magnets.

From what I understand, the type of zappers we have, will not work with Neos.

That's my understanding as well. I think the best you can hope for with home-zappers is to not ruin the neos

The last time I took a gauss on the stock Hawk mags, I was getting around 750-800 after zapping.

From what I remember, that's about what I get too...strong little guys! Yep, let me know how the JK Hawk neos work out

-john

[Victor Poulin]

John,
I had to laugh about your thinking 12volts, because I do the exact same thing !! I just never give it much thought lol, but your right, some raceways run much higher. Many drag strips run 14 and up, so yes, heat would be a big factor with Neos.

I,ll try to get some gauss readings later today, and let you know.


Vic

[Alchemist]

but I realize that some tracks are running over 13V and that can cause all kinds of problems with heat and motor life in general...not just the magnets.

Hi guys,

If this is the case, is there a method to address this issue when rewinding please?

Thank you.

Ernie

[havlicek]

Hi guys,

If this is the case, is there a method to address this issue when rewinding please?

Thank you.

Ernie

Hi Ernie,

Yep...ask the track owner NICELY to turn the power down...no...really! All DC motors will run faster and burn-up faster as the voltage applied to them goes up. I guess that tracks run higher voltages to make the motors and racing faster/more exciting and, if I were a track owner, I guess I might also if that's what the paying customers wanted. It's kind of a tricky dilemma.

Anyway, I wound another arm to try the C-can setup I modified to take Falcon neo magnets. This time I did a longer (around .460") stack and a with a more conventional lam profile. The original stack came from a modern D motor which I shortened and re-shafted, com is a salvaged current Mura. This time I did a #27 wind with a couple of extra turns on there because the inside profile of the stack is thin. On this one the results made more sense and the arm ran really well in both the can with the neos and the can with the Mura Red Dots...BUT...the arm ran noticeably better (faster) in the can with the neos and current draw was only very slightly higher with the neos...just under 2 amps (6V / no load). Motor runs smooth and not at all too warm. So for whatever freaky reason there is, this arm definitely preferred the neos. Maybe it's the longer stack, even though the other arm's stack was from a Falcon???



I also should note that the Red Dots were zapped before trying them out (thanks for the Mag Blaster Rick!) and they read very strong. The neos weren't zapped (of course), but read a little stronger anyway. With this arm, I can't see heat being an issue unless the car is really geared wrong...so the neos are the ticket. The other benefit of this setup is that, the neos can easily be removed for soldering-in the motor (if that's going to be done) and then installed afterwards to protect them from the heat of soldering them. So Frank's idea of sticking Falcon neos in a C-can seems to have merit...I think!

-john

[Victor Poulin]

John,
I would venture to say, that it prob is the longer stacks that makes the difference with the Neos? I was thinking that you might run into a heat problem with it, being that theirs not a lot of cooling, but I guess that must be enough to keep it cool. Pretty neet little motor John. lotta work, but pretty cool !! ANNNNNND IT'S SHINY

Hey, I'm working on a new project , but am at a temp stand still. I have a real hot BOW 48deg Hornet arm that I'm trying to stuff into a Hawk set up. Thats the one I got the Neos for. My problem is, I cant seem to find the right endbell that I can mod to accept the longer tail shaft. Any ideas??

Vic

[havlicek]

Hi Vic,

Do you have an arm tool for shortening the tail spacer? It's a very handy tool to have and can help center the arm in the field too.

-john

[Victor Poulin]

Hi Vic,

Do you have an arm tool for shortening the tail spacer? It's a very handy tool to have and can help center the arm in the field too.

-john

Nope ! Im not even sure I know exactly what that is lol. But it sure sounds like something I should have !
Any idea where I could find one?

Vic

[havlicek]

Hi Vic,

It's one of these doohickies:


They are double-ended and can be had with a different size shaft hole on either side. Basically, it's ends are coated with abrasive diamond dust so you can insert the arm, spin it and true the end (either the com or the tail spacer or both). Tou can also chuck the arm in a Dremel and give it a quick spin with the tool against the end of the arm. For removing more material, Rick used to make a neat tool that was like a spiral end mill with a hole in it for the arm shaft. Alternately, you could have someone drill a .078" hole in the end of a piece of bar stock and just stick Dremel sanding discs on there. They won't last as long...but it will be cheaper.

-john

[Mr. Frank]

HI John... Have 2 of them.. one is for 3/32 bushings and the arm shaft tool and the other is a 1/8 with the arm shaft tool.
Mega hone has them if you can still find mega hone anywhere.. They work super...

Mr. Frank

[havlicek]

Hi Frank...yep, they DO work great!

-john