126 replies to this topic

[MattD]

Is this highest rent location still in operation or any of your other locations? I'm curious.

[havlicek]

From one of Greg's earlier posts:
 
Quote

Instead of selling the 'fun' of slot cars on multiple levels, the industry only sold the 'speed,' only promoted the racing, and only celebrated the winners at the top levels. Note that for almost its entire existence, the USRA has listed only a single champion in its annual rulebook (the Group 7 winner) and ignored the national champs crowned in the many lower classes decided at the Nats events.

Valuing and promoting only the top-level racing part of the hobby, and essentially ignoring the other aspects (including the lower level racing activity) limited potential revenue and neglected the people who were attracted to slot cars but were not interested in competing.

 
 
I think that many competitive sports/hobbies do pretty much the same thing, and it doesn't seem to hurt them. Back in the late '60s and early '70s, I was a competitive surfer, and traveled to contests in different states (also demoing boards I built). 
 
Back then, there was no such thing as "professional" surfing as it exists today. Under both ESA and USSA rules, you started out as "A," and moved up to "AA" after winning an "A"-level contest. Finally, you moved to "AAA" after winning a "AA"-level contest. At the "AAA" level, you were invited to represent your district at the semi-national championships for each coast if you accumulated enough points in "AAA"... and then on to the national and eventually the world championships in the same way.  
 
No one paid attention to the "A" or the "AA" classes at all, and those classes were often held under the worst conditions with almost no one even watching except for the judges. The focus was almost exclusivey on the "AAA" guys. The effect of all that seemed to be everyone trying harder. Of course, the people who could afford to "invest" more in terms of time and money, who maybe didn't need to attend school or work a regular job had a distinct advantage...but that's no different from any other activity, including racing toy cars. Since then, surfing has exploded and professional surfers can now make a handsome living... in some cases a really handsome living when you include endorsement deals and the like. 

 

I think that "pushing the envelope" is the natural way these things go... but... it doesn't have to be the only way.  Personally, I'm no more impressed with a person who regularly wins at the top open levels than a person who regularly wins at any other level.

[axman]

Is this highest rent  location still in operation or any of your other locations?  I'm curious.

 

Unfortunately all good things come to an end, Dale. In 1993 Timezone a huge amusement company tendered for the site and took over with their their own staff and equipment. That meant all the rides and concessions like mine lost their businesses. The place still has over 1.2 million visitors per year... but no slot cars.

 

I got out of running slot car centres not long after that and now I'm retired just happy to race slot cars.  

[sportblazer350]

Wow, lots here to comment on.
 
I too find it sad that mom and pop types of local businesses can no longer stay open simply due to higher rents. That is why there are not many hobby shops left open anymore. And the few in my area have gone the toy and card gaming route. I understand that they have to sell whatever pays their bills. 
 
What killed the slot car hobby? Like someone said, it has not been killed, just no where near like it was in the peak years of commercial raceways in the mid 1960s. But that begs the question: in the topic of slot cars, is racing the only part of the hobby to focus on? And if racing, are only commercial raceways the only area to focus on? What about club racing? What about the slot car sets purchased by parents for their kids to play with? Remember, slot cars are both toys and a hobby, just depends on the end user. As far as "killing" the commercial racing, what about the hobby discounters that advertised in the slot car and model kit car magazines in the '60s? Just like internet discounters today.
 
I started back into racing in 1999 with 1/32 plasticars, and it was with Scalextric Nascar box stock. My first comeback race was a podium third place, the excitement was back, and I raced 1/32 for another 10 or so years. That was fun for a while, but one day i decided that I would no longer race competitevly any more, and just race for fun. That decision took all of the pressure off me, but it was nearly impossible to race for fun while the others were still taking it all too seriously, constantly fighting and arguing (find that in Carlo's new book). So I bailed out.
 
Like many others, I too am retired and once again back into the hobby. I returned to the local vintage club (see the C.A.R.S. forum) and am back to restoring, repairing, collecting vintage 1/24 and 1/32 cars. We are also back to racing 1/24 scale vintage cars, just for fun, and having a blast. Another way to enjoy vintage era types of slot cars has been building hardbody cars from various model kits. There is almost no end to the types of cars that can be built, from current to all eras of vintage cars. And I am glad to be part of a small group of others with the same interests.
 
My take on going as fast as possible - if that is what you like, then do it. It is not for me, so I don't do it. however, let's all "play nice" and have fun at our local raceways.  Many times I will find a contemporary flexi/wing car racer watching us race either vintage cars or hardbody cars with 25k motors, and hear the question; why are you racing such slow cars? I smile at him and reply: because we enjoy them! 
 
I am pleased that the biggest class of racing at my local raceway (The Race Place, Farmingdale, NJ) has a large group of young kids participating and having fun. That tells me that the slot car (racing) hobby will carry on for many years to come. Just as I discovered this hobby when I was a pre-teen, and am still enjoying it in my retirement years, I expect the current group of kids to come back to it and/or stay in it for their lifetime, passing it on to their children and grand-children.
 
For those who think that what, where, and how they are racing is the only and best way to go, I have a challenge: try another scale, try another type of car class, try a home set, try a club race, just try what you think is not good, and just maybe you will enjoy it. And have some fun for a change!! 

[MattD]

Kim, it might be important to keep in mind the track at the amusement park you mentioned was very small compared to the size track most of us guys race on today, which has a big bearing on overhead. Also it closed nearly 30 years ago.   

 

Obviously those kids are not the kids of  today, that was a previous generation. In the picture you showed, I didn't see one kid with a phone in their hands. Today that would be 75-85% of those kids looking at a phone. At least here in America.

 

There are always lots of variables involved in success or failure. We've had posts from track owners that have a track at their homes and they are successful, but that isn't a fair comparison  to a guy that has to pay for a building.

 

More power to you for trying to keep slot tracks going.  

 

Glen, I can only wish I could run vintage, slow stuff with you guys. Right back in 1965! Speed kills, especially our old hardbody cars!!

[Cheater]

As for the rent increases: landlords are very aware of the market for their properties and if you go to Google and check out the building Evett's is in you'll note that row of buildings are probably 1950s commercial construction and the land value exceeds the building value. I'll bet the property owners are in discussion in tearing down and putting up newer, higher density commercial buildings. It's happening all over, even in the "less desirable" areas. That store will not be empty for long. I'd bet the landlord has a list of potential renters before any rent increase was made.

Phil,

I know the real estate 'landscape' in CA and in Silicon Valley is very different from most of the rest of the country. My remarks are not based on the story or that area.

There's a retail space near me that is part of a L-shaped strip mall bascially at the corner of two major secondary roads, one of which is a block from an interstate exit. When we first moved into area in 1991, it was occupied by a bar and grill but that didn't last very long. In the early to mid '90s, I pointed Ray Gardner to it as a potential raceway (rent too high, he said). To the best my knowledge, this space has been empty for over twenty years. The rest of the strip mall is maybe 40-50% leased and that has always been the case in my memory. The largest space has seen three failed grocery stores and is now a seemingly-successful Chinese buffet chain unit. The other three corners have a large chain gas station (recently built after razing the strip mall that was on that corner), a Lowe's home center, and a mostly fully-leased strip mall of small units. Adjacent along the short road to the interstate are an Arby's, a Wendy's and a gas station. Norcross, GA, is not a well-regarded suburb of Atlanta (although it is slowly coming back up) and is probably 50+% Hispanic in both businesses and residents.

So this bar and grill space has sat empty for at least 20 years and maybe longer.

North of me is a large shopping center, I'm guessing 150,00-200,00 sq. ft, with a lot of parking. Lots of high-end development all around it. It's been completely empty for a long time, perhaps ten years.

My question is why owners are willing to allow rentable properties to sit empty for such long periods. There has to be a reason, a tax advantage or something. If they were losing significant money doing this, they would not be doing it! I plan to ask an old car acquaintance who was very successful in local commercial real estate for many years to see if he can provide any insight.
 

That store will not be empty for long. I'd bet the landlord has a list of potential renters before any rent increase was made.

It would be interesting to see if your prediction here is in fact what happens. The lady's info that "There were over 100 vacant stores in Santa Monica that we looked at" would seem to diminish your claim. If that market is so hot, why were there 100 vacant stores available for her to inspect?

[Cheater]

I think that many competitive sports/hobbies do pretty much the same thing, and it doesn't seem to hurt them.

John, I think your comparison isn't particularly cogent.

As I see it, competitive surfing isn't a pure profit-making business and doesn't have to lease the beach or ocean for its venue. It's success or failure doesn't depend on generating sufficient revenue to cover a non-trivial level of overhead.

My point about commercial slot racing promoting speed as the only 'value' in the slot car hobby is that it (probably unintentionally) limited the number of potential participants, as there are always more people who just want to 'play' than those who want to compete in almost any competitive hobby. Think of a bowling alley that allowed bowlers with less than a 250 average access to the lanes only on weekdays from noon to 5 PM. Or a golf course that wouldn't book tee times to those with less than a +10 handicap on weekends and holidays.

As I have said many times before, others hobbies and leisure-time activities have prospered by promoting and celebrating all of the diverse parts of their hobbies. I view the fact that the commercial slot racing 'industry' didn't embrace this approach as one of the key reasons for its lack of success over time.

[Justin A. Porter]

Speed sells. 

We sell speed. 

What else do we sell? 

This is the core incongruity of the slot car industry. Look at a part on the peg at your local shop and ask "Why do I want that part?". More accurately even "Why does the manufacturer say I should buy that part?" The answer, invariably, is "It will make your car faster." 

 

If it doesn't make a car faster, it doesn't sell. If something else comes out that makes cars even faster, it doesn't sell. Only the strictest controls on the most tightly regulated "fun" classes keep the steady creep of speed and speed parts out of the equation.

But what then of the track owner? If he can't sell speed parts, what does he sell? Only consumables with maybe the perverse but necessary hope of damaged equipment requiring more than just tires and braids leaving his display case. 

It's a tough business model. My own books told me that my 2018 average retail price per item on the slot car side was $8.71. Given the slot industry standard of 40% margin, that meant an average per item in the till after cost of goods of $3.48. 

The sheer volume it takes in slot to pay for overhead on those kinds of numbers tells the real story on slot car racing as a retail business model. 
 

Speed sells. We sell speed. In 1/24th scale commercial racing, what else is there to sell?

[jimht]

The tracks define the cars sold, used, and raced.
 
The owners define the racing program based on their likes and dislikes and willingness to stock inventory for it.
 
The more "hobby-oriented" and the less "fun-toy-oriented" the business is, the less money it will make.

[Cheater]

What else do we sell?

Justin, here's my viewpoint...

Slot car racing is nothing more than a leisure-time activity. You may ascribe more or a higher importance to it than that, but that's delusional IMO.

People partcipate in a leisure-time activity simply because they enjoy it, for whatever reason.

What a slot car raceway should being attempting to sell is fun and enjoyment.

If the participants don't have fun and experience enjoyment for their 'investment' of time and money, they will always find something else to do with their leisure time.

[Dave Crevie]

One thing not discussed here so far is how badly on-line sales impact every type of non-essential commodity. We, as hobbyists, can help that by only buying from a store with a track.

Anyone who thinks that a commercial track makes all it's rent money on track rental is out of touch with reality. Tracks take up a lot of space. You can't set one up in a 500 square foot store. There is a local model train shop, Lombard Hobbies, that exists in a 600 square foot unit, and sells only N and HO guage RTR stuff. Very little in track, scenery or structures. He can survive because his rent is low (bad location).

The shop that I buy my railroad materials from recently had to move to a smaller shop, and in turn gave up all the R/C products. He just could not afford to stock everything. Other stores started doing the same thing. So I ended up having to patronize several different shops to get what I needed for my
various hobbies.

I have never bought hobby supplies on line, and never will.

[Ecurie Martini]

Although I participate in some of the RTR classes in our local group, my primary interest is scratch building so my purchases are motors, gears, wheels & tires, axles & decals, and supplies like wire, sheet metal & plastic, paints, adhesives, and small hardware.
 
I live in Baltimore - it's not Chicago or LA but its not East Podunk either so, from the above list:
 
Adhesives - OK at my local hardware store
Small hardware - want to get a blank stare? Walk into an Ace and ask for 2-56 x 3/8 button head machine screws, 0.03125" brass sheet, 3/32" drill blanks, etc.
Paint - for the common brands like Testers, Tamiya, etc - no hobby shop within 50 miles, model airbrush lacquers? - three suppliers in the US

The first list of slot-specific bits?  I use half a dozen suppliers, hundreds or even thousands of miles away to cover the range that I need.
 
The irony is that, were I still a model railroader, M. B. Klein, an outstanding supplier, is 10 minutes away!
 
EM

[havlicek]

Hi Greg,
 

John, I think your comparison isn't particularly cogent.

As I see it, competitive surfing isn't a pure profit-making business and doesn't have to lease the beach or ocean for its venue. It's success or failure doesn't depend on generating sufficient revenue to cover a non-trivial level of overhead.

 
Cogent?     I tried to be as clear and whatnot as I could, but the surfing analogy is only apropos as regards the "tippity-top" levels of slot car racing and how the "FAST" guys get all the glory (slots' need for speed). My point had nothing to do with the problems commercial tracks have as far as sky-high rental costs. I suppose you could take the analogy even further though, because without enough popularity and people showing-up... there would be no such thing as "professional surfing." You're right, they don't generally have to rent the beach... but they have other hoops to jump though, such as permits from the local municipality, providing services such a porta pottys, food, emergency medical at the ready. Still, the only comparison I was making was about how all the interest in the top levels in both is similar, but in the case of pro-surfing, the sport has flourished. 

BTW, there's no real system of encouraging/supporting newbies in surfing at all. In fact, there are many beaches where if you are not a "local," you might suffer anything from slashed tires, being robbed, to getting a pounding back on the beach.
 

As I have said many times before, others hobbies and leisure-time activities have prospered by promoting and celebrating all of the diverse parts of their hobbies. I view the fact that the commercial slot racing 'industry' didn't embrace this approach as one of the key reasons for its lack of success over time. 

 
You are probably right to at least some extent, Greg, but I think it's probably more a combination of several things (not the least of which is the devaluation of "craft" type skills over the years) that together made for a perfect storm (see the above about being either a "newbie" or a non-local).  Surfing has never been the kind of activity where you go get a board (or rent one) and there's a crowd of people waiting to help you out.    I spent a lot of time trying to do just that back in high school because nobody else was surfing. It didn't win me any points at the beach, but it did get me into several fist fights!

[Cheater]

One thing not discussed here so far is how badly online sales impact every type of non-essential commodity.

You are correct, but my analysis was really more concerned about where the ball was dropped in the past, rather than being meant as a blueprint for what needs to happen today. Although, as Swiss demonstrates at Chicagoland, being as inclusive as possible is good for business.

[Cheater]

Still, the only comparison I was making was about how all the interest in the top levels in both is similar, but in the case of pro-surfing, the sport has flourished.

Would be interested in what factors you feel permitted surfing to flourish, whereas competitve slot racing clearly has not.

[havlicek]

Would be interested in what factors you feel permitted surfing to flourish, whereas competitve slot racing clearly has not.

 

I think competitive surfing also had its "perfect storm"... but it was a good one, not a bad one. To put it simply, it became "fashionable" for one thing. Right around the time slots were banging, surfing was only really starting to gain more public notice.  here was "surf music" (although I think Dennis Wilson is the only Beach Boy who actually surfed!), surf movies like The Endless Summer and even the Gidget" stuff.    Then, too, surfing was seen as a "healthy" pastime, which it is, as opposed to the more "geeky" general-public opinion of slots. 

 

I wish there would have been more attention paid to both the family aspect of slots, as well as the mechanical/engineering part. I think that might have helped... maybe, but even traditional trades-type jobs suffered by only getting short-shrift from the schools and then a resulting devaluation by the general public.

[Bryan Warmack]

Would be interested in what factors you feel permitted surfing to flourish, whereas competitve slot racing clearly has not.

 

Scantily clad girls as spectators!? 

[Cheater]

But there's no need to take up surfing to enjoy that sort of scenery at the beach...

[Rotorranch]

We need to have scantily-clothed lady corner marshalls!
 
Rotor

[MSwiss]

Speed sells. 

We sell speed. 

What else do we sell? 

This is the core incongruity of the slot car industry. Look at a part on the peg at your local shop and ask "Why do I want that part?". More accurately even "Why does the manufacturer say I should buy that part?" The answer, invariably, is "It will make your car faster." 

 

If it doesn't make a car faster, it doesn't sell. If something else comes out that makes cars even faster, it doesn't sell. Only the strictest controls on the most tightly regulated "fun" classes keep the steady creep of speed and speed parts out of the equation.

But what then of the track owner? If he can't sell speed parts, what does he sell? Only consumables with maybe the perverse but necessary hope of damaged equipment requiring more than just tires and braids leaving his display case. 

It's a tough business model. My own books told me that my 2018 average retail price per item on the slot car side was $8.71. Given the slot industry standard of 40% margin, that meant an average per item in the till after cost of goods of $3.48. 

The sheer volume it takes in slot to pay for overhead on those kinds of numbers tells the real story on slot car racing as a retail business model. 
 

Speed sells. We sell speed. In 1/24th scale commercial racing, what else is there to sell?

 

The tracks define the cars sold, used, and raced.
 
The owners define the racing program based on their likes and dislikes and willingness to stock inventory for it.
 
The more "hobby-oriented" and the less "fun-toy-oriented" the business is, the less money it will make.

 

To answer the last sentence of Justin's post: "Speed sells. We sell speed. In 1/24th scale commercial racing, what else is there to sell?"

 

My answer, "A good time."

 

This past Friday night, I had a group of people come in.

 

A male called a few days earlier, with a vague, "I have six-eight people I want to bring by to slot race for awhile Friday night. Will you be able to accommodate me"?

 

I  answered "Sure, I had parties the last two Friday nights, but this one is open. Come on in."

 

It turns out it was a father, mother, son, and five friends of the son, who, after racing, were going back to the house for a sleepover celebrating the boy's 11th birthday.

 

I had two choices;

 

First choice was quickly show them how the cars run, basics of driving, and go back to working on my long list of B/Os on CR Low CG guides, "selling speed," and collect my $80 once they were done running/crashing, and would probably never see them again.

 

I went with the second choice, the one I almost always choose.

 

I let them practice for a short time. I kept giving them advice on how to improve, while fine-tuning the power for a minor amount of skill, (not Mike Steube caliber hard, or five-year old 'hold it down the whole time' easy) and then I suggested we have a race, which they were all up for.

 

I set up a nine-heat round robin, so one racer could help marshal, 8 of the 9 heats, explained they would be running all eight cars on all eight lanes, the computer would count the laps, keep a cumulative total, and onw of them would wind up with ultimate bragging rights and with a print-out to prove it.

 

I did my usual complimenting anything close to good driving, good marshaling, throwing in some irreverent humor, and the parents smiled, chuckled, and laughed.

 

The winner acted like he was king of the world.

 

As the kids were walking out laughing, bragging, etc., to go back to their sleepover, the dad stayed to pay.

 

I said "$80 please."

 

As he handed me his CC, he said, "Ring $100. Thanks for making it a lot of fun."

 

I answered, "If I'm going to do it, I might as well do it right, and have fun, too."

 

Along with the extra $20 and a good feeling, the other benefits of the second way were:

 

1 - they will probably be back

2 - burning some calories, running around, switching the cars for proper track position, between heats.

3 - between heats = less wear and tear on the car

4 - a race, with consequences if you fall off = more concentration, less crashing, less beating up the cars

5 - with race direction, a race can be stopped, again = less beating up the cars

6 - other than minor tire and motor wear, in a short practice, and a 12-minute race, no "real" stock to replace.

 

Last month, despite a light party month, due to Easter, I had my best month ever, other then the 2006 Wing Nats. So it means I sold a lot of crap, but had to buy a lot of crap to replace it. When I have 12-17 parties in a month, a good portion of my rent is paid without having to replace stock.

 

Justin, what was a good party month for you at Hobby Haven?

[Alan Dodson]

One thing that has always hurt slots, especially as the cars get faster, is that it is not a good spectator sport. Even Retro racing cars are too fast for the casual observer to follow. Today we consider Retro cars to be fairly slow, but they are faster than Group 7 cars were in the early 70's.

[axman]

Spot on, Mike... your business model reminds me of a raceway here in Australia that has continuously been in operation since 1964. Thats 55 years folks in the same location.

 

There is a super fast stadium type track that runs everything from stamped chassis to open wing cars, A flat track that caters for 1/32 through Retros and scale. The shop stocks mostly all the stuff you need and often when we go there for a race there are kids having a party on whatever track is available.

 

I dont know why this raceway has worked so well for so long other than it must have reasonable rent and although it's had about four owners over the years they pretty much stick to the same formula... and that's to cater for everyone. 

 

Really slot car centres are a bit like hardware stores... you're less likely to go to the one with a limited range because the big store one caters for everyone.  

[Justin A. Porter]

Justin, what was a good party month for you at Hobby Haven?

 

Haven Raceway & Hobby had neither a party or a rental program. Space and staffing due to the hobby side of the business made it at best a losing proposition. We were a hobby shop with a race track, not an amusement center. 

Also, quite frankly, that moves the goalposts. A party has no interest in the cars as long as they don't break, or the format, or the product of slot car racing as a whole. 

"Fun" isn't quantifiable. I can't bottle it or hang it on a peg or assure it to any customer. I can laugh and joke and encourage until I'm blue in the face but I can't put it into my spreadsheet and say "Yes, every racer definitely had fun." 

I appreciate what you fellows are trying to say. Yes, a happy, hospitable, well-presented track with several thriving avenues of revenue has the best chance of succeeding. 

[Steve Deiters]

Mike Swiss,

 

Great story for slot racing and how to make consumers happy. 

 

Congrats.

[Racer36]

Justin,

While it is true that you can't hang fun on the wall, Mikes illustration clearly shows you can put it in the bank.

Kudos to Mike Swiss for what he is doing in the hobby.