126 replies to this topic

[Bill from NH]

That 95% of crap is what keeps raceways open so racers can enjoy the other 5%. Even in the early 70's, raceways were subsidizing their income with other products & activities. When I worked at Modelville Hobby(1973), they also sold bicycles, mini-bikes, & parts, especially clutches. Others ran lunch counters & ice cream shops during the summer months.

[Eddie Fleming]

Working on this 95-5% idea, slot car racing needs to be the other activity offered by an otherwise successful business. Now where you find a good business with enough extra room that is willing to let you put in a track is the trick.

[Ecurie Martini]

An (unfortunate?) parallel:

 

Looking at the various issues raised - space requirements/cost, capital requirements, ancillary sales etc. it occurs to me that there is another activity facing similar pressures - bowling.

 

A bowling alley is likely to be even bigger than a slot site, has facility rentals, equipment rental and sales but often includes a snack bar and may, in some cases, have a liquor license.

 

I believe that the number of bowling alleys is off by half since the 60's and that peak did not represent a "bubble" but was reached by long term growth.

 

Not being a participant, I'm not sure how far the analogy can be carried - is there a "faster/ better handling" ball?

 

EM

[Justin A. Porter]

An (unfortunate?) parallel:

 

Looking at the various issues raised - space requirements/cost, capital requirements, ancillary sales etc. it occurs to me that there is another activity facing similar pressures - bowling.

 

A bowling alley is likely to be even bigger than a slot site, has facility rentals, equipment rental and sales but often includes a snack bar and may, in some cases, have a liquor license.

 

I believe that the number of bowling alleys is off by half since the 60's and that peak did not represent a "bubble" but was reached by long term growth.

 

Not being a participant, I'm not sure how far the analogy can be carried - is there a "faster/ better handling" ball?

 

EM

 

Oddly enough, you're not at all wrong. Many bowling alleys have "pro shops" that sell shoes, weighted and drilled balls for various lane oil conditions, and other such items for dedicated league and tournament players. 

No hard data to go on myself, but I'd hazard a guess that while spend per customer is WAY up on the guy in the pro shop versus the folks who rented shoes to play a few frames, there's probably only one pro shop guy for every 200 or so shoe rentals. 

And either way, they both buy beers, wings, and other such fare from the bar/kitchen and I can pretty safely say that's where all the margin lies. 

[MSwiss]

Interesting you brought up bowling.

About a 1/4 mile west of me is Suburbanite Bowl.

My wife and I, sometimes go there on Friday night, after I close up.

Neither of us is very good, but we still have fun.

I sometimes see guys wheeling in some sort of tall contraption, that looks like it holds at least 4 balls.

They are obviously real serious.

But at a family event there, back in the winter, I snuck away from the raceway long enough, to notice that catering to young children is such a component to their business, that at least on the lanes my wife, and grandkids, were on, they had bowler controllable, flip up bumpers, so adults and kids, could bowl at the same time.

I equate that to the adjustable power on my King, where a 3 year old will be 6V, on Orange, with zero chance of coming off, while an enthusiast is testing/practicing, on White, on 12.5V, without any drama.

Coincidentally, Suburbanite Bowl also rented a space, in a basement room, to someone who operated a slot racing facility there, about 12 years ago.

It was four, 4 lane, snap-together track, layouts, with absolutely beautiful scenery, with different themes.

They're charged real high prices, for casual fun and birthday parties.

I'm about 98% sure they didn't last a year.

Here's some chit chat about it, and it's viability to the local 1/32 racers, for more serious fun.

http://www.slotcaril...ed-alley-racing

[Phil Hackett]

An (unfortunate?) parallel:

 

Looking at the various issues raised - space requirements/cost, capital requirements, ancillary sales etc. it occurs to me that there is another activity facing similar pressures - bowling.

 

A bowling alley is likely to be even bigger than a slot site, has facility rentals, equipment rental and sales but often includes a snack bar and may, in some cases, have a liquor license.

 

I believe that the number of bowling alleys is off by half since the 60's and that peak did not represent a "bubble" but was reached by long term growth.

 

Not being a participant, I'm not sure how far the analogy can be carried - is there a "faster/ better handling" ball?

 

EM

 

Here's a  chain of bowling alleys that have updated marketing and promotions. They recently remodeled a bowling alley near me, and from what I've heard, it's a party atmosphere on the weekends.

 

Bowlero

 

[zipper]

Coincidentally, Suburbanite Bowl also rented a space, in a basement room, to someone who operated a slot racing facility there, about 12 years ago.

It was four, 4 lane, snap-together track, layouts, with absolutely beautiful scenery, with different themes.

They're charged real high prices, for casual fun and birthday parties.

I'm about 98% sure they didn't last a year.

Here's some chit chat about it, and it's viability to the local 1/32 racers, for more serious fun.

http://www.slotcaril...ed-alley-racing

 The website vanished after summer 2009.

[Phil Smith]

That 95% of crap is what keeps raceways open so racers can enjoy the other 5%. Even in the early 70's, raceways were subsidizing their income with other products & activities. When I worked at Modelville Hobby(1973), they also sold bicycles, mini-bikes, & parts, especially clutches. Others ran lunch counters & ice cream shops during the summer months.

 

But you do all of that just to make 5% of your customers happy? Only enjoy your business 5% of the time? No thanks!

[Half Fast]

The problem with the bowling/slot cars comparison is that the customer base for bowling is orders of magnitude bigger than that of slot cars.

 

But I wonder if bowling is suffering from the same aging demographic issue.

 

Cheers

[MSwiss]

 
But you do all of that just to make 5% of your customers happy? Only enjoy your business 5% of the time? No thanks!

Where did you come up with the 5% number?
 
With help from the "Internet Troll's Secret to Success",  handbook? Lol
 
No one has ever made you open up a raceway.
 
I find it very odd you would take the time to assert how you wouldn't.

[Dave Crevie]

A statement from post 82 got lost in all this. Mike Swiss makes his workshop and equipment available to the racers. And

will spend as much time with you as you need to assemble and tune your new car. Given the insurance risk involved, I

wonder how many tracks would let people use their tools and shop space for building chassis or painting bodies? I see

this as one aspect of Chicagoland Raceway that gets forgotten in all the mudslinging I see in these discussions. 

[Phil Smith]

I find it very odd you would take the time to assert how you wouldn't.

 

Why not? You're never shy to state your opinion about a wide variety of subjects. Are you the only one allowed to be cranky?

[Phil Smith]

On the bowling alley thing. Every bowling alley I've even been in, starting with early childhood, served food and had a pro shop, so that's nothing new. And bowling leagues use to be a big thing. I'm not sure if that's still around or not.

 

What may be new is booze. Most of the DFW where I grew up was "dry". No liqueur sales outside the "wet" areas. I'm not sure how it is anywhere else because I've lived here all of my life.

 

But now most of it is "wet". And bowling is sort of making a comeback, which may be explained by this article: 

 

The Boozy Resurrection of the Bowling Alley

[MSwiss]

 

Why not? You're never shy to state your opinion about a wide variety of subjects. Are you the only one allowed to be cranky?

I don't go to random threads,I'm not interested in, and post;

 

"Not for me , not interested, not for me".

 

I guess you aren't going to explain where you came up with your solid 5% number.

 

You made up an outrageous, trolly number, so you would get a response.

 

Nothing was sadder than the thread killing post, you made around 6(?) months ago, and then having to post a day or 2 later, lamenting on how no one wanted to play with you.

 

PS-your last post(#113) is a non-trolly one. Something that is adding info to the thread.

[Phil Smith]

If I wasn't interested in this thread I wouldn't be reading it.

 

I don't think anyone but you took the 5% number seriously. It was just thrown out there to make a point.

 

And I didn't troll anything. I just gave my opinion. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it trolling. In fact I think your trolling me! Stop it!

[jimht]

Uh...

Is the guy that throws his shoe at the Umpire a spectator or a participant?

 

Anyway, the thread topic...

 

Speed in Raceways. Of course it's relative to the size of the tracks.

 

It's always about speed in the racing, faster is better. Why? Because it compensates for bad reflexes &/or bad equipment...supposedly.

 

The business flaw is big tracks equal more speed and higher overhead.

 

Those who find economical space for big high speed tracks will usually not have heavy traffic, but will have a dedicated group of serious racers in the "club".

 

The profit margin is way better for the high dollar space that caters to the renter.

 

Those that buy in treat the joint like a club, the renters treat it like a video game room.

 

All we can do is try to cater to both, but I've felt forever that intentionally making the tracks faster is a mistake.

 

 

[Rob Voska]

Golf courses in the colder climate are open but very slow in the winter...... and usually have a fair amount of room.

[Highnoon]

There are very few raceways you can walk into and say, now this is a viable operation. What makes a viable operation.

Providing different types of entertainment catering to different types of clients. You have the slot racing experience and then you have racing. You have birthday parties, rentals, drag strips, ovals, flat tracks and high banked swoopy tracks. It’s a combination of the occasional racer with the hard core racer that allows growth and profit.

Single track, no rentals, no programs for beginners, no helping newbies and a concentration on races for more experienced racers is a formula for bankruptcy.

If your a hardcore racer and your favorite raceway closes, don’t think for a minute that you should jump in and open a raceway where you can race. You are just flushing your money down the toilet.

If I would ever open a raceway, it would be in the middle of a bar/restaurant. Like the scene from Pulp Fiction at Jack Rabbit slims.
And of course I would also have a few trackman golf launch monitors for the golf crowd. And of course a stage with amps, drums, guitars so you could have jam night.

But that’s would I would do because that’s all the things I like. And it would fail miserably because it’s not about what you want or like, it’s about what other people want and need.

They don’t need to race they need entertainment, profitable slot racing is about entertainment not racing. Entertainment then racing.

But of course I’m a racer, so what the heck do I know. Ok carry on.

[MrWeiler]

Phil,I know the real estate 'landscape' in CA and in Silicon Valley is very different from most of the rest of the country. My remarks are not based on the story or that area.There's a retail space near me that is part of a L-shaped strip mall bascially at the corner of two major secondary roads, one of which is a block from an interstate exit. When we first moved into area in 1991, it was occupied by a bar and grill but that didn't last very long. In the early to mid '90s, I pointed Ray Gardner to it as a potential raceway (rent too high, he said). To the best my knowledge, this space has been empty for over twenty years. The rest of the strip mall is maybe 40-50% leased and that has always been the case in my memory. The largest space has seen three failed grocery stores and is now a seemingly-successful Chinese buffet chain unit. The other three corners have a large chain gas station (recently built after razing the strip mall that was on that corner), a Lowe's home center, and a mostly fully-leased strip mall of small units. Adjacent along the short road to the interstate are an Arby's, a Wendy's and a gas station. Norcross, GA, is not a well-regarded suburb of Atlanta (although it is slowly coming back up) and is probably 50+% Hispanic in both businesses and residents.So this bar and grill space has sat empty for at least 20 years and maybe longer.North of me is a large shopping center, I'm guessing 150,00-200,00 sq. ft, with a lot of parking. Lots of high-end development all around it. It's been completely empty for a long time, perhaps ten years.My question is why owners are willing to allow rentable properties to sit empty for such long periods. There has to be a reason, a tax advantage or something. If they were losing significant money doing this, they would not be doing it! I plan to ask an old car acquaintance who was very successful in local commercial real estate for many years to see if he can provide any insight. It would be interesting to see if your prediction here is in fact what happens. The lady's info that "There were over 100 vacant stores in Santa Monica that we looked at" would seem to diminish your claim. If that market is so hot, why were there 100 vacant stores available for her to inspect?

Why do properties sit empty? Because the tax code is written so that owners of multiple properties can offset their gains on the rented properties with the losses on the vacant ones. Thus keeping market forces from lowering rents.

Also, in many areas (particularly SoCal) malls aren’t doing well, The last timeI was in the Riverside Mall (Where Riverside raceway was) the place was about 70% empty and those stores that were there were not looking busy. i assume because online sales have eaten into their customer base. And yet, rents still remain high...I assume for the same reason I stated previously.

[axman]

Providing different types of entertainment catering to different types of clients. You have the slot racing experience and then you have racing. You have birthday parties, rentals, drag strips, ovals, flat tracks and high banked swoopy tracks. Its a combination of the occasional racer with the hard core racer that allows growth and profit.
Single track, no rentals, no programs for beginners, no helping newbies and a concentration on races for more experienced racers is a formula for bankruptcy.
 

Bingo.. there it is. I agree 100% Gary.
Really this topic is has gone from it's "speed addiction" to a subject that is so important to the 1/24th slotcar industry.
I think we need to start a new topic heading... to quote Ken McDowall:
How to open a Model Raceway... And keep it open

[MSwiss]

 but I've felt forever that intentionally making the tracks faster is a mistake.

Jim,
I agree.... mostly.
 
I find my King not challenging, but most others like it.
 
It went from from being a World Record track, to a slightly higher than medium speed King, in 14 years and 20+ Gerding Kings, later.
 
But in the last 5 years, or so, I've learned to appreciate it more.
 
We had a Group F race, last night, with 2 guys who had never driven a Wing car, until 15 minutes before the race.
 
One guy, had never driven a slot car.
 
I was expecting a hammer fest, and it was nothing like that, at all.
 
One rim got bent, from a bad pass, that I fixed on the car in a few seconds, but no broken cars.
 
During the 2nd heat, with all 5 racers on the track, we went 1 1/2 minutes without a deslot.
 
3 or 4 lanes can be punched, sometimes, but Purple and Black, in the lead-on, can be challenging, even to experienced drivers.
 
Below is the race sheets. Kody is the 'never ran a slot car before' guy. Jeff has been racing for 2-3 weeks.
 
Of course part of the amazing results below, is a perfect storm.
 
Great cars lent out by Michael Iga, not a huge field, Kody, a middle age adult, is amazingly good, possibly by a lot video game playing.
 
But still, I was glad my track was pretty easy.
 
That all said, I value it more as having the ability to be punched, on all 8 lanes, with the cars still running fairly fast, 8 1/2 second laps.
 
My parties are full speed, probably 1/2 - 2/3rds, of the time.

[jimht]

Whatever works for whatever you're doing.

 

Ford once cobbled together an 8 lane flat track (for a car show in Houston) decades ago that was made up of straights and turns that didn't come out quite right on the production floor, but he never threw anything away...actually, it looked kind of like some of the MTT/Euro 10 or 12 turn nightmares that are "popular" nowadays, except it was totally undriveable on 12 volts. 

 

Not a problem, power was set at 6 volts or less and people were lined up 6-10 racers deep at each controller waiting to race, I mean, not fall off for a few minutes. :-)

 

On the other hand, there are King tracks like yours...an 80 foot long banked drag strip, with a 75 foot long squiggly return lane, that is designed to have the cars not fall off much on 13 volts...IMO real men run on 13 volts on 150' Red tracks with launch ramps and get extra points for punching holes through the ceiling tiles.

 

Point is, of course, that cars and tracks and voltage can be played with to make anything work for anyone.

 

One would think with all the options available to us that we would have long ago come up with the perfect combination to satisfy everyone...joke, eh.

 

The speed addiction the OP started the thread with actually is the problem...we can make the cars (and tracks) so fast that it's a drug we're addicted to, but the rest of humanity isn't because they can't keep up with the cars and racing we've developed. (American Black tracks and Womps, that's the answer...whoops, tried that 40 years ago and wound up with Gp20 powered Womps with wings). LOL.

[CDavis7]

The single best thing that tracks could do to improve racing, and likely general participation, is to turn down the voltage.

The difference between a good and a great fk motor is minimal at 12v and evaporated at 10v.

In NERR, some of our best racing happens on the 90ft Royal on (I think) 10-11v.

I think raceways would see cleaner racing, happier repeat customers, and more participants on lower voltage given the fk motors that everyone seems to be using.

For c-cans and up, then turn up the v

[Pablo]

Good post, Chris 

Swiss has it covered, he has devices installed to control the power based on the "need for speed".

Somebody please post the link to his thread on the subject.

[MSwiss]

http://slotblog.net/...tower-of-power/

 

A last race, party favorite, is a last lap, come from behind, 19V turbo blast, down the main straight, for the win.LOL