Jump to content




Photo

Brushless drag racing


  • Please log in to reply
60 replies to this topic

#26 Half Fast

Half Fast

    Keeper Of Odd Knowledge

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,498 posts
  • Joined: 02-May 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NYC, Long Island

Posted 21 January 2020 - 10:46 AM

Bags-

 

Could the ESC be used, not as a switch, but as a variable speed controller for a brushless motor in a standard slot car?

 

Cheers


Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now.

The most dangerous form of ignorance is not knowing that you don't know anything!

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

 

 

 
 




#27 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,975 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:33 PM

 
What seems to be the problem with running a brushless motor in a slot car? This thread has more than enough looks but not many replies or inquiries. Are you guys that afraid of it? 

To be honest, it sounded very interesting
.....until the thread got to post #21 and 22.

That said, I think it is super-commendable that you were upfront with the foibles of brushless.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#28 Bags

Bags

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Joined: 26-December 19
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central PA

Posted 21 January 2020 - 12:52 PM

Hi Bill I’m in the process of getting it on a road course soon to see if it will work there too. I’ll keep the blog posted.

Mike I don’t really see that as a total kill if you will. Brushed motors will push gears,short out and basically do all the stuff that brushless will do. I have never told story’s about this hobby,hence I tell it the way I find it. This technology needs tested further for sure on a 1/4 mile track. It has much more potential than I can test on a short track. Thank you for the input.

 

Keep em Green!

Bags


  • hiline2, Half Fast, Charley and 1 other like this
Tom Bagley

#29 Dallas Racer

Dallas Racer

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,690 posts
  • Joined: 03-November 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dallas, TX

Posted 21 January 2020 - 04:38 PM

I do offer this whole setup for sale or just the switch if that works for you. Maxx motors are $40 Castle motors are $50 . The switch mailed is $85 .

 

 

I think the cost may be the problem. And maybe lack of a need for it. Neat that you were able to make it work though.  :good:


  • Geary Carrier likes this

Phil Smith ® ©


#30 Alchemist

Alchemist

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,342 posts
  • Joined: 11-November 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tiburon, CA

Posted 21 January 2020 - 08:25 PM

Hi Tom,

 

I inquired over 10 years ago, about trying to employ brushless motors on a slot car road course, but the people I asked told me it wouldn't work because brushless motors had 3 wires  and our DC motors use 2 - and also something to do with sensors.  I wasn't quite understanding.

 

When I asked them if they tried - they gave me the "are you stupid" look!  LOL

 

I guess I asked the wrong people.

 

I'm looking forward to viewing your findings in regards to employing the brushless motor on a road course.

 

I applaud your engineering pursuit!

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

Ernie


  • Charley, Samiam and Geary Carrier like this
Ernie Layacan

#31 Charley

Charley

    Backmarker

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 54 posts
  • Joined: 11-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Marietta, GA

Posted 21 January 2020 - 11:19 PM

Tom,

 

No, I am in no way afraid of this. I would love to know more about it. I am curious as to what you meant by a "flash over" on the ESC.

I have a few cars and dragsters that I would like to do this to. 

Please message me when you get the video up.

 

Charley


Charles Cornell


#32 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,975 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 January 2020 - 12:06 AM

Make sure you put spacers in between the crown gear and bushing/bearing. These motors will push the gear and the pinion will act like a grinder on it. Been there did that !
 
Dont let any of the wires touch each other or a ground. This will cause the switch to pop making it useless , might not hurt the motor. Did that too !

 
 

Mike I dont really see that as a total kill if you will. Brushed motors will push gears,short out and basically do all the stuff that brushless will do.

Push gears with brushed motors?
 
Maybe. I know my flatted axles for inline drags have been popular.
 
As far as brushed motors shorting out.
 
Specifically shorting out?
 
That's not real common, and usually the racer's fault for over gearing or over tiring.
 
The part that makes me real leery(along with all the heat related connecting problems you cite) is
 the Don't let any of the wires touch each other or a ground.
 
What would be considered a ground ?
 
$85 down the drain, for a simple mistake/accident, is a deal breaker for me.
 
Even clipping a wrong color wire up, on a road course, isn't going to cost a racer $85.
 
And that's a conscious mistake, by the racer, not an incidental accident.

BTW, not sure if you realize it, you have snuck in a free ad for yourself.
  • Charley likes this

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#33 Geary Carrier

Geary Carrier

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 591 posts
  • Joined: 23-April 16
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:CT

Posted 22 January 2020 - 12:57 AM

Hi Tom,

 

I inquired over 10 years ago, about trying to employ brushless motors on a slot car road course, but the people I asked told me it wouldn't work because brushless motors had 3 wires  and our DC motors use 2 - and also something to do with sensors.  I wasn't quite understanding.

 

When I asked them if they tried - they gave me the "are you stupid" look!  LOL

 

I guess I asked the wrong people.

 

I'm looking forward to viewing your findings in regards to employing the brushless motor on a road course.

 

I applaud your engineering pursuit!

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

Ernie

:good:


Yes, to be sure, this is it...


#34 Bags

Bags

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Joined: 26-December 19
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central PA

Posted 22 January 2020 - 08:18 AM

Mike the shorting out/grounding of the switch happened to me when I was bench testing a setup with out insulation/tape on the wires from the switch to the motor. I hooked it up to the power supply and turned it on,didn’t have a hold of the motor(which is a round cylinder) it rolled over and touched a copper bus bar laying on the bench (the ground) and before I realized what was happening POOF. ALL MY FAULT. I haven’t had any problems with it after it was installed in the chassis and secured. We are not cutting the wires now,just wire tying the bundle to the switch to secure it.

 

Yes a brushed motor WILL push gears. We race SS/AH Hemi cars at 125 grams with GP 20 quad mag motors inline. They push gears, also VR motors will do the same thing. I’ll hafta check out your flatted axels next time I place an order, might have a use for them.

 

I didn’t mean to “sneak” an ad per say,just wanted to let people know what was going on to see if there was any interest in it.

I’m sure I would get the how much does it cost question, so I figured I would answer it in the post.

 

Keep em Green!

 

Bags

 


  • hiline2 likes this
Tom Bagley

#35 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,975 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 January 2020 - 09:03 AM

Yes, I don't see how you could promote the concept, without mentioning that the switch is an item you came up, and is sold.

That's why I didn't bring it up to the owner of the 'blog.

Anyway, it's an interesting concept.

It will be interesting to see what you come up for road racing, although a 1" diameter motor isn't going to make it easy.

On the flatted axles, CR055 has the flat in the middle.

CR056 has the flat, offset, for Sonic crowns, with the set screw boss opposite the teeth.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#36 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,009 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 22 January 2020 - 09:40 AM

Brushless motors with 2mm shaft are available in motors as small as 12mm od.
  • hiline2 likes this
David Parrotta

#37 Alchemist

Alchemist

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,342 posts
  • Joined: 11-November 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tiburon, CA

Posted 22 January 2020 - 01:19 PM

I do not have experience with RC car brushless motors (BMs)  and with the explosive power coming off the line when drag racing;  I'm wondering if BMs will have a "twitchy" trigger response on the road course?

 

I am not able to drive "twitchy" motor responsive cars very well;   even with my DiFalco controller, a couple of my motors are not affected by sensitivity adjustment.

 

I prefer smooth/gradual response motors for my slot car and I'm curious if controllers that have sensitivity adjustment/brake adjustment would be compatible with the BMs?!

 

Tom,

 

When you test the BMs on the road course, and if not an inconvenience, would it be possible to video the testing to share with us please?

 

I'm not sure if you should continue sharing info in regards to testing on a road course, since this forum is dedicated to drag racing.

 

Merely a suggestion, If you would consider starting a thread on the road course testing in another forum - perhaps the "Scratchbuild" forum?

 

 

Thank you.

 

Ernie


Ernie Layacan

#38 Bags

Bags

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Joined: 26-December 19
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central PA

Posted 22 January 2020 - 01:57 PM

Ernie the way this works is that we aren’t going to have much braking at all. Basically only friction from the car on the track. So this is really just a pure test to see what happens. I am like you in driving habits, used to run em around without the wire hooked up lol. 
Without power the motor will free spin. Got to find out what will happen,ain’t testing fun ?

 

I will post in that forum as this is a drag thread.

 

Thanks for the part #s Mike !

 

Keep em Green !

Bags


  • hiline2 likes this
Tom Bagley

#39 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,975 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 22 January 2020 - 02:08 PM

Stupid question.

Is the speed variable, or do you just have full on and full off?

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#40 Dave Crevie

Dave Crevie

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,781 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 09

Posted 22 January 2020 - 02:48 PM

If there are no brakes, you won't be able to use the system for road course racing. IIRC, when those motors are used in R/C cars, the

speed controllers have some kind of regenerative braking, just like with the old DC motors.  



#41 Bags

Bags

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Joined: 26-December 19
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central PA

Posted 22 January 2020 - 03:56 PM

Mike good question....The motor does react to more or less vdc applied thru a controller or power supply. I want to find out if “less trigger” will act like a dynamic brake. It might just fail and not be feasible on a road course. I’m gonna try it and find out. Got a flexi chassis I’m gonna load up with an angle winder. I think the quad mag rotor motor might be clunky enuff to slow down by its self, we’ll see what happens.


  • hiline2 likes this
Tom Bagley

#42 Dallas Racer

Dallas Racer

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,690 posts
  • Joined: 03-November 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dallas, TX

Posted 23 January 2020 - 09:36 PM

So Tom, you make the "switch"? Or is it something we can buy from our local RC Hobby Shop?

Have you tried this in a "slip joint" dragster yet?

 

Thanks,

Charley

 

 

Well Charley  I have a brushless setup in the red Budweiser rail pic above. It works very good in a slipper.

As far as you going to the R/C shop and buying an ESC, it won’t work without a flashover, turning it into a switch.

You will find out that it’s not quite as easy as it looks and sounds. It took a lot of “doing “ to get where we are today with this technology. 
What seems to be the problem with running a brushless motor in a slot car? This thread has more than enough looks but not many replies or inquiries. Are you guys that afraid of it? 
 

We are in the process of putting a new video together to show more of how these run.

 

I'm sure it's not easy and took a lot of trial and error, but it might make a fun project. I'm assuming you're flashing it with an ESC programmer: https://www.amazon.c...&ref=nb_sb_noss

 

There seems to be a brake setting as well: https://www.youtube....h?v=qYHJgg_vvSQ


  • Half Fast likes this

Phil Smith ® ©


#43 Bags

Bags

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Joined: 26-December 19
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central PA

Posted 24 January 2020 - 11:19 AM

Phil that’s a programmer for an ESC , won’t work on this. This is a switch that can’t be changed without software type of programs etc.....there is no connection that you could plug that into on the switch. It’s set and can’t be messed with to keep it simple.

 

Keep em Green!

 

Bags


Tom Bagley

#44 Dallas Racer

Dallas Racer

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,690 posts
  • Joined: 03-November 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dallas, TX

Posted 24 January 2020 - 07:10 PM

I thought you said it was an ESC that you had flashed?

 

I understand your reluctance to reveal exactly what you've done because you want to monetize it. But I don't ever see that happening. There's just no need for it. Brushed drag motors work just fine at a fraction of the cost. And for road course slot cars it's way too heavy and high CG.

 

So if you're not going to make any money you might as well tell us how you did it so you'll at least get some compliments on how clever you are. ;)


  • Charley likes this

Phil Smith ® ©


#45 Bags

Bags

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Joined: 26-December 19
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central PA

Posted 25 January 2020 - 10:11 AM

I thought you said it was an ESC that you had flashed?

 

I understand your reluctance to reveal exactly what you've done because you want to monetize it. But I don't ever see that happening. There's just no need for it. Brushed drag motors work just fine at a fraction of the cost. And for road course slot cars it's way too heavy and high CG.

 

So if you're not going to make any money you might as well tell us how you did it so you'll at least get some compliments on how clever you are. ;)

I do use an ESC as stated above. It is then flashed and cleaned of all its programming installed from the factory. Then a new program is in stalled with software that was designed and built (at a cost) to become a switch for use in a drag slot car. This all took time , money and persistence to accomplish...if it was easy everyone would be doing it with components they bought off of Amazon.

 

As a track owner selling parts is how we keep the lights on and doors open for our costumers. 

This is a new application for this technology and I’m  just getting it out there for people to see that it works in drag racing. If it’s not for you that’s ok. Just because someone said it couldn’t be done doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be done. Kinda like carburetors and EFI. 

This technology was never intended to replace brushed motors, but maybe to start a new class of brushless racing. Keep the playing field level as far as motor performance for sure.

Did you ever think you would see a total electric car ?

 

Thank you for the comments.

 

Keep em Green ! 

 

Bags

 

 

 

 


  • hiline2 and Alchemist like this
Tom Bagley

#46 Alchemist

Alchemist

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,342 posts
  • Joined: 11-November 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tiburon, CA

Posted 25 January 2020 - 12:48 PM

Hi Tom,

 

I'm curious, with the higher voltage that is used on slot car commercial tracks, as opposed to the voltage output employed on the RC cars, what the effects would be on the brushless motor?!

 

Would it run much hotter/affect the lifespan, etc.,?

 

Will you be employing a "road course" controller for course testing?  I presume you won't be using a "drag controller"?!

 

I ask because I'm curious as to the braking capability of the brushless motor, using a controller that has sensitivity and brake adjustments;   if these type of controllers are compatible with brushless motors.

 

Thanks for sharing Tom!

 

Ernie


Ernie Layacan

#47 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,009 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 25 January 2020 - 01:29 PM

It is typical for brushless motors to operate with greater efficiency as voltage increases.
David Parrotta

#48 Bags

Bags

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Joined: 26-December 19
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central PA

Posted 25 January 2020 - 04:28 PM

Hi Ernie

I haven’t experienced any heat issues on the drag strip as far as hot lapping the cars. That’s on 16.4 vdc. The track I’m going to has 13.5 vdc in it’s road course for power. The motors have an aluminum can to help heat dissipation. It might get hot, I don’t know but I want to find out. Going to use my 2 ohm wet wound rental controller with no brake wire. An adjustable controller won’t be much good because there is nothing to adjust.

We didn’t need brakes in drags so that wasn’t put back into the switch. Brakes are not an option in this application.

 

Keep em Green !

 

Bags


  • hiline2 likes this
Tom Bagley

#49 Bags

Bags

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 119 posts
  • Joined: 26-December 19
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Central PA

Posted 25 January 2020 - 07:41 PM

Ernie

Im wondering if throttle sensitivity might be the trick. My Cidex drag controller has a rollout switch on it that reduces the vdc going across the bands that makes the car just roll out nice and slow. The roundy Cidex have a similar switch I’ll hafta check it out.

Might have to give it a try too.

 

 Bags


Tom Bagley

#50 Alchemist

Alchemist

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,342 posts
  • Joined: 11-November 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tiburon, CA

Posted 25 January 2020 - 10:25 PM

Hi Tom,

 

Looking forward to see your road course test results.

 

If you would please, to let us know on this forum that you posted the road course findings on whatever forum you decide to post the results.

 

Thank you so much Tom!

 

Ernie


Ernie Layacan





Electric Dreams Online Shop