92 replies to this topic

[bradblohm]

Motor is not in a box, it's in a bag with Dyna-Rewind header.  In the 2006 thread http://www.slotblog....a-rewind-finds/ when I bought them I spelled out what I thought.  I still believe they are some of the first things Ted/Bud started making, then as it was obvious 26D/16D was the way they dumped to Bilet to liquidate that stock.

 

I'll find the motor and get pictures again.  Need to be sure it wasn't a later header re-staple.  The guy I bought from in 2006 said the slot car stuff had been in boxes in storage for over 20 years so not likely to be someone's shenanigans.  There was a big tub of stuff, and a couple of very rare MPC double-kits were there (missed those by 2 minutes!).

[Gene/ZR1]

Yes Mark, things change... HO cars are collected by far more people because far more played with them mostly in the 1970s, and now these people collect 1960s examples.
One of the cars I should mention on my "rarity listing" is in fact, "cars" at the plural: ANY of the Dyna-Rewind early kits sold at standard retail plus one dollar for the rewound and dynamically balanced motor exchanged from the original kit ot RTR model. Cox, Russkit and cars from other manufacturers were advertised, but so far and after over 20 years of our nose to the ground, we have been able to only find ONE example, a Cox Cheetah with a Dyna-Rewind Cox TT-X150 motor (Mabuchi FT36D) totally intact in its original box.
How do we know it is genuine? Simple, Dyna-Rewind never marketed a "36D" separately... hence it cannot be a forgery.
I was told by "Bud" Stordhal, one of the two partners in the company, that about 1000 kits from various manufacturers were so modified: stock motor out, replaced by the rewind job.
dyna_36D.jpg

The 99 cent special, I think it was just a mild replacement armature that was installed. No spring cups, if you can find the other ad from Dyna Rewind it shows 2 motors at the top of the page and other motors at the bottom right, also on the bottom left of the page in small print as written is the catch all. Something like; the 99 cent special are not the motors as shown on the right.
I will check this in more detail later.

[don.siegel]

Here you go Gene, you remembered that correctly. The ad also says that you can chose any other can motor type kit and add $1.99! It was in the March 1967 issue of Model Car & Track. Will have to hunt up the other early ads from Dyna to see when this started... 

Don 

 

[TSR]

 

The 99 cent special, I think it was just a mild replacement armature that was installed. No spring cups

Gene,
I am sure that this was the case for the earliest of this fairly short production, but obviously that changed along in time, the Cheetah kit I show in a previous post proving it. It appears that the earliest motors did not have a sticker, and we do have a Cox FT16D motor with what is definitely a Dyna armature, with no sticker.
These as well as the Champion motors stickers, are virtually impossible to remove without causing some damage to the painted surface of the can, even for a Cox chrome plated motor where scratches would be visible.
The person who sold us the Cheetah kit is its original owner, and for whatever reason (he did not recall), never assembled it. He recalled that he ordered it by sending a request to the PO Box and got a response with instructions to send his payment.



As you can see, the motor has all the goodies (brass spring posts, larger coil diameter on the springs) except for updated magnets since the only manufacturer that had any was Champion. It is also interesting to note that the pinion has been installed with the boss on the inside, opposite to the standard Cox installation with the boss on the outside.

Also in that advert, the motor on the top right appears to be an FT36D, so they did also have a program for that motor, but it is not found on any of the cars advertised, all equipped with an FT16D. All are advertised as "kit", but the Monogram Lotus  and the Cox Cheetah were mostly sold in kit form, and the Dynamic Bandit only in RTR form.


 

[TSR]

Don, it is not a Pactra BRP but the "Competition" version of it. Only the second example I have ever seen so far, unfortunately not in the best of conditions.

Yes, Bilet also marketed Pittman motors, we have a few.

The Bilet FT36D we have with what appears to be Dyna armatures are metallic rose/red. Brad could confirm for us that the bagged motor he had seen with the Dyna-Rewind tag was the same color? That would advance our speculation to "likely"...

[bradblohm]

It was for sure same color.  My guess is that they had some packaged and some loose when they sent to Bilet, and Bilet used their headers to package the loose ones, as they did the Pitman DC-63s.  Total head shaker when I saw them on the table mixed with piles of other stuff.  Grabbed a half dozen Bilet cards and then found the Dyna-Rewind carded motor and really couldn't believe it.  Grabbed a few more Bilets and turned my attention to the other "goodies".  As I say, missed the MPC double-kits by 2 minutes.  One had a dark green (or maybe blue) Bonneville!

 

Sorry for taking the thread away from rare/limited access/right time right place kits, but that table that day was a "right time right place" event!

[TSR]

Brad, thank you and don't apologize as this is important information about the Bilet FT36D. Try taking a pic of the bagged Dyna motor please.
 

[bradblohm]

Okay, found it:

 

 

Notice motors are identical with typical rotary tool balancing marks, right down to the steel pinion.  Included a Bilet DC-63 for reference.  DC-63 was part M100 at $2.50, while 2-Volt rewind was part 101 at $8.49.  Price of Dyna-Rewind was $8.98.  Not cheap for 1965?  1966?  1967?

 

[strummer]

Gee...a  2-volt motor?

 

What's up with that?

 

Mark in Oregon

[don.siegel]

Mark, 

 

Guess nobody's answered this yet. Technically it doesn't mean anything, but it was a marketing ploy by manufacturers to indicate a "hot" motor. 

 

The idea was that most slot car motors, originally for trains, were designed to operate on 12 volts DC. The first higher performance motors or armatures that were released were called "6-volt motors/arms": if a motor wound for operation on 6V was run at 12V, it would go like a house afire! In fact a miniature electric motor is designed for optimum operation at a given voltage (and current draw), but that doesn't prevent it from being run on other voltages. 

 

Then we got 4-1/2, 3, 2, and 1 volt motors, but some manufacturers and/or journalists at the time also began talking in terms of the ohm (resistance) reading on the arms, which is really the correct way of talking about this. Even early in the game ('64 or so), a few of the guys were proposing a "2 ohm" rule, as the minimum resistance for an armature to level the playing field, since some racers were already rewinding and/or using lower resistance arms to gain an advantage. 

 

Hope that's clearer. 

 

Don 

[bradblohm]

Hey Mark,

 

Someone here will better explain Ohm's Law, but for us when fewer turns and/or bigger wire is wound on arms the resistance goes down, which I believe brings operating voltage down, and current drawn goes up.  Because heat goes up exponentially with current the "bees wax" endbell of these early 36Ds would melt, and fast!  Over time metal brush tubes were added so that brushes weren't riding on the plastic, then metal spring post protectors were added because the springs got hot, then shunted brushes were tried to keep current out of the springs, then different endbell material was tried, then elephant ears were added.

 

I believe, and Philippe will likely know for sure, that Dyna-Rewind was the first to do the metal sleeve over the spring posts to protect them, AND, when I received Jerry Mrlik's racer box (Jerry was one of the GM Tech Center guys and racing buddy of Ted Lech, Larry Shinoda, etc...) he had cars raced in 1967 which included brass attachments with holes drilled acting as heat sinks to wick away comm,brush heat (Mura elephant ears but years earlier)!  Shouldn't be surprised as he was an engineer, and, for the record, his name is on the Chaparral 2E working wing patent along with Jim Hall's!

[strummer]

Thanks, guys... it was my first thought that  2V motor probably wouldn't last long at 12V. 

 

This topic gets more interesting by the day... 

 

Mark in Oregon

[TSR]

Brad,
 
Thanks for the pictures and that ends one more of my speculations by confirming what we believed, without actual evidence. We had only seen such cards for armature packing. Note that all these motors are of the early (1963 through 1964) FT36 endbell side drive motors. Hence, the very beginning of their involvement.

Now here is an interesting picture, showing one of these FT36 motors in a "Brand X" box, that is obviously also a Dyna-Rewind box and card, likely when "they" decided to liquidate these motors. So, is it possible that Ted Lech began with that name, then partnered with Stordahl and the new entity renamed "Dyna-Rewind"? 
 
We have only seen a couple of those "Brand X" products, one, an armature also for a FT36, the other being this motor.



It also establishes that the earlier Dyna-Rewind motors did not have a sticker.

Please also note that the bagged armature appears to be wound "star style," as you can see the tail of the three twisted wires sticking out! 

Hence, one can conclude that since we have that Cheetah kit with the rewound and sticker-ed Cox motor, it must have been a late production item in a line of "approximately 1,000 kits" as reported by Bud Stordahl.
 
Would be nice to find another in unused condition, unassembled and boxed...  

It's fun to still resolving little mysteries over 50 years later!  

[bradblohm]

Okay, will now go back through all items from Jerry Mrlik, and the other Dyna-Rewind stuff I've bought and traded for over the years.  Gonna laugh hard if I had missed that Brand X thing!

[Gene/ZR1]

This could be interesting.

 

Were these early FT-36 rewinds a hot item as Pittman were the in thing in 1964.

Some history here doesn't add up or does it ?

I always like these 36d diesels. 

 

1.French FT-36 probably first re-winder.  say> 1964

 

2.FT-36 say> 1964, spring on the left.

 

3.FT-36D say>1965, spring on the right.

 

4.Old Groove photo (with the Clark Kent phone booth ) say> 1964 was the first Dyna Rewind sold there ?

 

5.Dyna Rewind started when.

 

6. First Dyna Rewind ads.

 

7.Car photos

 

[TSR]

Gene,
as far as what we have been able to gather from Bud Stordahl and Judy Lech, it began in 1964 without the "Dyna-Rewind" name, with Ted Lech winding arms first for himself, then to supply the demand. And yes, the first ones were sold at The Groove. From the new book currently being assembled:

"Engineers "Bud" Stordahl and Thaddeus “Ted” Lech from the General Motors Tech Center in Warren, Michigan discovered the new hobby in 1965 and began racing at several venues in the Detroit area, their favorite as well as that of other GM employees being “The Groove Raceway” in Royal Oak, Michigan."

Ted actually started a bit earlier, in mid 1964, rewinding those early FT36 with no brush heat sinks. And these are those metallic rose motors. He apparently did that for a while, eventually discovering that you could get almost as much torque from an FT16 motor with far better handling. But there are no examples of such that I know of at this time, painted in that color. To run the growing business, he needed a partner. One of his co workers at GM was his best bet, and he introduced Bud to the new hobby in early 1965, and they formed their partnership. But it remained a "local" thing until the FT26 motors became available, and this is when they decided to go commercial on a mail order scale by purchasing RTRs and kits from distributors at a good discount, then offering this 99 cents exchange at retail price and a buck. After that, Ted's basement became the 'factory' while Bud's basement became the business and distribution center to retailers and distributors. You will read in the book the memories of Judy Lech about those days that she stills remember fondly.

We believe that Gordon French was one of the first to rewind Mabuchi can motors, but Ted Lech (and possibly others) were not far behind. What Gordon French did not have is the special Hi Temp "Polar" epoxy that Ted had access to at GM.

 

 

[bradblohm]

Okay, everything I've found in my basement so far (but there's more, there's always more...) is all Dyna-Rewind, no Brand X.  I've also reached out to see if Dave C. is still out there.  He may know a bit more, but Ted's daughter is likely the best source now.

[Gene/ZR1]

Gene,
as far as what we have been able to gather from Bud Stordahl and Judy Lech, it began in 1964 without the "Dyna-Rewind" name, with Ted Lech winding arms first for himself, then to supply the demand. And yes, the first ones were sold at The Groove. From the new book currently being assembled:

"Engineers "Bud" Stordahl and Thaddeus “Ted” Lech from the General Motors Tech Center in Warren, Michigan discovered the new hobby in 1965 and began racing at several venues in the Detroit area, their favorite as well as that of other GM employees being “The Groove Raceway” in Royal Oak, Michigan."

Ted actually started a bit earlier, in mid 1964, rewinding those early FT36 with no brush heat sinks. And these are those metallic rose motors. He apparently did that for a while, eventually discovering that you could get almost as much torque from an FT16 motor with far better handling. But there are no examples of such that I know of at this time, painted in that color. To run the growing business, he needed a partner. One of his co workers at GM was his best bet, and he introduced Bud to the new hobby in early 1965, and they formed their partnership. But it remained a "local" thing until the FT26 motors became available, and this is when they decided to go commercial on a mail order scale by purchasing RTRs and kits from distributors at a good discount, then offering this 99 cents exchange at retail price and a buck. After that, Ted's basement became the 'factory' while Bud's basement became the business and distribution center to retailers and distributors. You will read in the book the memories of Judy Lech about those days that she stills remember fondly.

We believe that Gordon French was one of the first to rewind Mabuchi can motors, but Ted Lech (and possibly others) were not far behind. What Gordon French did not have is the special Hi Temp "Polar" epoxy that Ted had access to at GM.

 

PDL

I don’t believe the 36d series motors were that popular especially the rewinds. Even the French 36d motor included.

i just wonder if there were a overstock of these rewind motors and the 16d series were more popular. 
I agree that the early 16d rewind motors are the dark ages as few early examples exist. Yes the 26d was the solar flare of motors until technology advanced to reborn the modern 16d motors, by then many other motor suppliers were providing a good motor. By 1969 it was all but over anyhow. 
Have you ever wonder where all this unused stock has been stored through the years.?
The 16d gold Russkit 23 was my favorite and the Pittman 196b, awh the good old days.

hey! Find me an old beat up Savage Bat.

take care~g

[TSR]

Gene,
I believe that the "big" Mabuchi was very popular when it was introduced, because most of the motors used by hobbyists at that time were also large: Pittman DC85, Kemtron... and they had more power than the smaller Pittman or Mabuchi FT16 motors. So it was natural that the early rewinders would cater to these as well as to the smaller FT16s.
And just as will Mura and Dynamic, which also did FT36 rewinds (very scarce today), and yes, racers quickly found out that the smaller motors were the way to go because they made the cars handle better. So where did the unsold rewinds go to?
Unused French examples still come up time to time at auction. Dynamic liquidated theirs with a distributor that packaged them as "Green Hornet". Mura never produced enough of them so there never was an excess of them, and of course Dyna-Rewind dumped theirs on Bilet, which was likely a distributor brand.

The FT26 changed the scenery for a while, because indeed they were the fastest stock motor to that point, and either dewound or rewound, they were fast, but then again, their taller body meant that less powerful FT16s would out corner them and there are many turns on a slot car track...

In fact after 1966, the FT36 were only used by kids and by 1967, the FT26 were gone at the top level, only used then by club racers or at local tracks all over the nation, but when the pro circus hit town, not a chance in hell would they qualify fast enough to make the cut and participate in the actual racing. History is there to prove it.

The last Dyna-Rewind motors that used the Tradeship can, Mura endbell and Mura armature blanks (1969 through 1971) were also the best and most powerful the company ever produced.  Here is an example:



Here is a truly rare Mura FT36D rewound motor, one of the very few I have seen in over 25 years of our nose to the ground...




 

[Jay Guard]

For all of you Dyna Rewind fans...

 

I just noticed this 26d Dyna Rewind advertised on eBay, Item Number: 143530643327.

 

It looks to be in fair condition complete with intact silver sticker on the side.

 

[TSR]

Jay, that is a rewound K&B "Jaguar" motor, the only FT26 supplied by Mabuchi with a yellow endbell. Dyna-Rewind got a large inventory of these after K&B/Aurora dumped their 1/24 scale program. This one is in so-so shape, with foam damage. it was obviously used and lacks the "Enduro" features of brass spring sleeves and better springs, indicating that it also likely does not have the updated commutator.
 

[Jay Guard]

Thanks for the additional info on this motor Doc.   Although I'm not really into the vintage things as you and many of the others here are but I like to try to help out fellow Slot Bloggers by posting something I think might be of interest to them.

 

BTW... I never heard of "foam damage" before but I can see what you're talking about.  I'm guessing that it comes from the chlorides in the foam attacking the can metal and causing corrosion.

[Martin]

That evil foam has ruined many a can and arm. Remove and replace if you have motors in factory boxes with that foam. Its nasty stuff.

[TSR]

Jay,
yes, it is common to find stacks of unused, boxed parts from various companies where the bits are corroded to effectively, unusable condition, because they were resting on that nasty packing foam. The worst is when one discovers a really rare motor in mint condition, of which bottom is stuck to the foam base, with damage not only to the can and endbell bits, but to the armature.
And of course, brass gears, motor mounts and other brass bits have turned to a nice green color... 

[TSR]

An interesting note about that "rarest of the rare" listing, a few messages from my British friends collectors, all pointing out to me the legendary Scalextric Bugatti Type 59, possibly the most expensive slot car today in case a real one shows up at auction or in a private sale. The days in which one could purchase a Bugatti for under $5K are long gone, when some of the replicas that were supposedly produced in the original mold many years later bear prices of over $3K already.

Why it can't make the "list" is quite simple: it is estimated that between 60 and 200 of them were produced by Scalextric before sales were reportedly so poor, that they stopped making them.
It is for me hard to believe since its "sister" in the line, the Auto Union  racing car, is not that rare. Something else must have happened, maybe a tooling issue.

In any case, the cars on top of the list, of which a minuscule quantity has reached to surface of the pond, are not that desirable to the average collectors because most collectors do not even KNOW that some of these cars even exist, so of course there is little interest for a car like, for example, the Cyclonic "Tornado", of which to date, only two examples have surfaced, both of them in their original box.

Interestingly, the paperwork that came with the Scalextric Bugatti is even far more rare than the car itself!